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How to drill a clean hole in Masonite with paper glued on top?

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  • Member since
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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 12:09 PM

Overmod

 

 
rrinker
My screen print was the computer character in the TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 BASIC instruction manual!

 

8K or 16K version?

 

 Is this a test? The Level 1 BASIC version of the Model 1 only had 4K of RAM. Big Smile

                      --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, July 7, 2019 10:09 PM

Overmod
Carefully dress the 'ears' on the brad point drill with a fine oilstone (and oil) from the inside (not the OD) at the start, and then from time to time, to keep their tips very sharp

Hi Overmod,

You mean that I can't substitue these for my masonary bits?!?Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughClown Yes, I recognise the need to keep the ears sharp for sure, and to sharpen from the inside. I have a very fine oilstone that my father gave me when I was a youngin. The Ministry of Natural Resources used to give them out as freebies in the 1950s. They came in nice little leather sleeves. I have used it so much that it is hollowed out in the middle on both sides. It's too small to dress. There wouldn't be anything left!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, July 6, 2019 7:30 AM

A couple of notes that may be helpful:

Carefully dress the 'ears' on the brad point drill with a fine oilstone (and oil) from the inside (not the OD) at the start, and then from time to time, to keep their tips very sharp -- think of them as the points of something like a #1 X-Acto knife cutting the paper.  Masonite is an abrasive material and may tend to blunt these (virtually invisibly, but terribly effectively) to where they start to deform the paper face rather than cleanly cut through it.

It may help to use a drill guide to keep the bit exactly parallel to the workface as you engage it.  The side points won't start to engage the facing until the brad point has penetrated to some distance, so you have a little leeway in positioning the bit precisely.  I suspect that a drill guide with a 'square' baseplate will be more useful for this in many cases (e.g. on curved fascia) than one that has a circular plate.

We should probably discuss possible methods of 'bucking' from the back side of panels that are installed (or that can't be jigged flat) when drilled, to aid with punch-through problems on the reverse side of the panel.  Usual support with backing blocks won't work with typical Masonite use on a model railroad, e.g. in curved fascia following the edge of framing.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, July 6, 2019 7:19 AM

rrinker
My screen print was the computer character in the TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 BASIC instruction manual!

8K or 16K version?

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:47 AM

Would NOT be a gas pipe on or in a Subway Structure. LIRR uses gas switch heaters but not the NYCT.

NYCT even has electric thrid rail heaters attached to the third rail, go figure.

 

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, July 6, 2019 2:36 AM

Brother Elias, I shake my head every time I look at that photograph! What is apparently a horror story on first glimpse is actually a story of true luck.

First, the train apparently wasn't moving when the drill came through. That is in itself a miracle. Can you imagine the mayhem if the train was doing 30 mph?

Second, the drill bit actually missed the train! A foot to the right and the Transit Authority would have had a major leak on their hands. That would be with the train being stationary. Add in 30 mph and a few passengers and we would have had a recipe for ham salad! By the way, I love ham salad! But not that kind!

Now, if we look a foot or so to the right, there is a pipe line which could be gas. Okay, let's have grilled ham salad!! (Not my favourite by the way!).

Let's look at all of the positives: The drill was obviously being used very gently judging by the very clean breakout in the ceiling of the tunnel!...........................Uh, duh, unfortunately, I can't think of any more positives! Anybody??

Seriously Lion, we have to say that this is one we got away with!!!LaughLaughLaugh

Thanks for all of your excellent photography, your modelling skills and your challenges to our slumbering in front of the computer!Smile, Wink & Grin

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Friday, July 5, 2019 9:46 AM

HEY! Be carefuly where you poke that drill bit!

 

Shesh! What do you think this is, an HO scale layout!

 

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, July 5, 2019 7:10 AM

Hi Greg,

I drilled from the front at a very low speed. I should have supported the back because there was some breakout but no worse than with the twist drills.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by gregc on Friday, July 5, 2019 5:21 AM

from which direction did you drill? face or back

if you drilled from the back, did you drill with the face resting on a scrap piece of wood?

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, July 5, 2019 3:26 AM

The verdict is in! The lipped brad point drill bits cut a very clean hole in regular printing paper that has been glued to Masonite.

For some reason I can't get the pictures focused really well, but they illustrate my point.

This was done with lipped brad point drill. There is a little bit of damage around the hole but that was caused by me allowing the drill to flop over when it broke through. The bezel will hide the damage:

These were done with a newer regular twist drill:

Closeup of the 1/4" bit:

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, June 30, 2019 8:44 PM

carl425
This sounds like an application for the Scan-n-cut gizmo that Ben Lake has reviewed a couple of times.  Use the Scan-n-cut to cut your holes before you glue the paper down to the masonite.

That's an interesting idea! I have also thought of using the hole punches that I have to do the same thing.

It still leaves the issue of drilling the Masonite cleanly. Hopefully the lipped brad point drill bits that I have on order will accomplish that.

I bought some 110 lb. card stock for doing structure mock ups. It will go through my printer so I'm going to give that a try instead of using plain printer paper for the control panels.

Thanks,

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by carl425 on Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:16 PM

This sounds like an application for the Scan-n-cut gizmo that Ben Lake has reviewed a couple of times.  Use the Scan-n-cut to cut your holes before you glue the paper down to the masonite.  You could also use its capability to draw to lay out the artwork for the panels - not to mention the many cool control panel stuff you could do with this thing and adhesive backed vinyl in different colors.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by Medina1128 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:31 PM

rrinker
I'm pretty sure you're a bit older than I am, Lion

Lion's bit older than everyone! Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, June 29, 2019 1:00 PM

 I'm pretty sure you're a bit older than I am, Lion, but I also did hand set type and used a platten press in print shop. I think I made some personalized statioonary with it, I forget which grade I did what but one was a screen printed t-shirt (they let us use xacto knives to cut the film for the screens!), one was a name and address rubber stamp, and I'm pretty sure I did manual typesetting to make personalize stationary, which we then stacked, squared off the edges, and bound the top. My screen print was the computer character in the TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 BASIC instruction manual! 

                               --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Medina1128 on Saturday, June 29, 2019 10:42 AM

 

 

Rather than use a diagram of my layout printed on paper, I prime the masonite with regular spray primer. I then paint it white. After the white has dried completely, I mask off the diagram with narrow pinstriping tape, then paint it a dark color. Before the paint dries completely, I carefully peel off the pinstriping tape.

The second image is of the control panel for an extension of the layout. The toggle switches are all DPDT-Center off. When the switches are thrown to the left, control of this area is done from the main control panel. When the switches are thrown to the right, control is done locally from this panel.

 

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, June 29, 2019 9:14 AM

In Jr. High we had in 7th. Textiles, Ceramics, and Metal

In 8th we had Printing, Wood Shop and Electric.

 

In Jr. High we had hand set lead type and hand powere platten presses.

 

In High School we had powered Platen Presses.

 

Later on New York State baned platten presses, it was exclusively offset.

Today the print shop here at the Abbey is ong gone. All of our printing in full color is done on Xerox Laser Machines.

My workstation users get laser B&W, color is the big machine down by the business office, but some monks can apply to the abbot for a color machine.

 

 We no longer use any ink-jet machines.

 

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, June 29, 2019 1:56 AM

gmpullman
He might be refering to "Sintra" or types of expanded polyvinyl chloride.

Thanks Ed,

Looks like an interesting possibility, but I believe it would still have to be covered with Lexan or something similar in order to avoid damage to the surface. There was a modeller on the forums whose name I can't remember who used Sintra extensively on his backyard G (I think) scale layout. His work is incredible, but to the point of this discussion, he was easily able to score the surface of the Sintra panels to create mortor lines and surface effects. Having a control panel with a soft surface doesn't make sense.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:32 AM

hon30critter
Hi Wolfie, "EPVC". I can't find a definition for the acronym. Can you elaborate?

He might be refering to "Sintra" or types of expanded polyvinyl chloride.

https://graphicdisplayusa.com/products/sintra/e-pvc/

Or this:

https://www.curbellplastics.com/Shop-Materials/All-Materials/Expanded-PVC/Sintra-Expanded-PVC-Sheet#?Shape=CRBL.SkuSheet

I'm not sure if the Genesis ceiling panels we discussed a while back is the same stuff or not. They refer to it as "cellular PVC":

https://genesisceilingpanels.com/

 I brought home a bunch of Genesis ceiling scraps from work and use it around the layout, mostly for roads and building foundations.

I had mentioned Forstner bits in my first reply. They're great but IIRC, 3/8" is about as small as I've seen.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, June 28, 2019 11:28 PM

There are several styles of brad point drill bits. The ones I have ordered are referred to as "lipped" bits. They are very similar to a forstner bit in that they have  two points (lips) on the top edge of the flutes. They cut a circle before the end of the flute scrapes the wood away. They are not the same bits that Lion referred to.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=42247&cat=1,180,42240

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, June 28, 2019 11:13 PM

NVSRR
I have been experimenting with epvc.

Hi Wolfie,

"EPVC". I can't find a definition for the acronym. Can you elaborate?

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, June 28, 2019 11:10 PM

This was my last control panel upgrade.

 
Thanks Mel. Very informative!
 
Dave
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 

[/quote]

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Track fiddler on Friday, June 28, 2019 10:07 PM

I gotcha..... all good

TF

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Posted by tstage on Friday, June 28, 2019 9:47 PM

Track fiddler
Yup..... you're right on the name. I have been corrected after about 20 years. I've always called them forester bits but you are correct.

I knew what your meant, TF. Big Smile

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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Posted by Track fiddler on Friday, June 28, 2019 9:39 PM

Yup..... you're right on the name.  I have been corrected after about 20 years.  I've always called them forester bits but you are correct.

A very precision piece of hardware as a drill bit.  I have no problem using them in the field.  I have a complete set and they were very expensive.

They always work very well for me.

TF

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Posted by tstage on Friday, June 28, 2019 9:06 PM

TF,

Did you mean forstner bit?  Those are best used in a drill press...

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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Posted by Track fiddler on Friday, June 28, 2019 5:56 PM

It's been my experience.  Drill a small pilot hole.  Then drill backwards with a brand new drill bit on the Finish side not all the way through but just enough to scribe it.  Then drill through the back side to the Finish side and the auger of the brand new drill bit leaves a clean hole. 

Forester bits ALWAYS drill a clean hole.  I don't know how small of forester bits they make.  If they make smaller ones,  that would be your better bet.

Hope this helps.

TF

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Posted by Renegade1c on Friday, June 28, 2019 5:46 PM

I tried at one point to use Masonite for the back plane of my control panels and had same issue as the OP. I now sandwich my diagram between two pieces of Lexan (Polycarbonate). It drills easily and doesn't crack like acrylic.  i don't really get an issue with the paper tearing up when drilling except when i forget to apply a small bit of pressure with my finger near the hole I am drilling. I have a set of bits that I keep just for drilling in the lexan so they stay sharp.

The whole thing ends up being about .2 inches thick which is perfect for pushbuttons and flat face LEDs i use. 

 

 

The photo is from a few layouts ago but concept is similar. 


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http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/

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Posted by ROBERT PETRICK on Friday, June 28, 2019 3:11 PM

BroadwayLion

Hey Dave-

Clean, sharp bit at slow speed. Very slow. I mean very very slow. Let the flutes of the bit remove material as if they were tiny chisels, which, in fact, they are.

Did I mention slow speed? 10 RPM. Max.

Good luck.

Robert

PS  A few points to Lion for allowing me to use his image.

LINK to SNSR Blog


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Posted by rrinker on Friday, June 28, 2019 2:03 PM

 Maybe that's why a standard bit running in reverse works too Laugh

When I was in 7th grade, everyone had to take it all - home ec, wood shop, metal shop, mechanical drawing, and print shop. Biys and girls both. After that, it was srictly an elective what to take., though both 8th and 9th grade 'shop' meant a rotation of all of them - wood, metal, print, and mechanical drawing. 9th grade the wood shop teacher was female. Once we hight he high school in 10th grade, you picked one shop class. I took wood shop - the only kid taking college prep classes AND shop, because I enjoy that sort of thing. After 10th grade though I didn't have enough time in my schedule to keep taking shop classes. My nightstand is the one I built 38 years ago in wood shop. Made it for my Mom, but it came back home to me a couple of years ago after she passed.

                                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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