Doctorwayne, I always enjoy your postings and photos !!(and I found a way to save your photobucket photos)
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Thanks for your kind words, Brian.
I also discovered the way to save photos from photobucket, as I lost two years worth of my own photos and about another 800 photos from an acquaintance, which I was saving for a friend and for my own modelling references, when my old computer erased them all from a flashdrive.The 800 are gone for good, as are many of my own, but the ones which I put into photobucket can be recovered by a simple "right-click" on the enlarged image and a "save-as". I usually catalogue my model photos by year, putting them on a disc or flash drive, and the mishap occurred as I was trying to add one more photo, which I had overlooked previously.
I'm sure that they'll all end-up in the garbage when I'm gone, but they're sometimes useful for me, especially the construction photos, when I need to "remember" how I had done something.
Wayne
doctorwayne...and while I worked slowly and methodically so as to not make a lot of dust, pretty-well all of the lower level visible in the photo was covered in a layer of it.
Ooops! I'll remember that.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hi
im trying to source the appropriate type of extruded foam insulation. The only type I can find locally in southern ontario is
DOW
Cladmate CM20 insulation
It's blue but I don't know if it is the correct type of foam.
Can anyone the correct type to buy?
Anybody?>...thanks in advance
Ed
Ed Aim trying to source the appropriate type of extruded foam insulation.
Hi Ed A,
Welcome to the forums!!
The blue stuff is the right foam.
Actually, I don't think it matters whether the foam is blue or pink. That's just brand differentiation. Some people use white styrofoam but the little beads create a real mess. If you are grinding or sanding the others they can be messy too.
Before you start spending money on foam, you might consider checking the local construction sites. There is often lots of waste foam and the site managers are usually happy to have someone take it away for them. Do ask for permission first.
Thanks for the response Dave....much appreciated
My only concern was that there are more than one type of this insulation and I was concerned about getting the correct stuff. I've watched some videos on using this for scenery and was quite impressed with the result, even if it is a little messy, it's "dry" messy ya know?
I've used most of the other methods, such as hardshell and other "plaster" related processes in the past with satisfactory results, but i was impressed with the results obtained with foam for the effort required.
The layout im building is a 11X10 foot HO "walk in" sorta of C shaped (it's a slightly modified Byron Hendersen track plan actually). There are no grades and I was interested in the foam for its ability to provide extremely easy below grade scenery. i intend to put down 4" of the foam on top of 1/2" plywood and then the cork roadbed and track. i can then easily model below track level scenery without cutting wood or other nasty bits.
I'll check around for a dumpster prize, but I don't mind spending a few bucks for the two or three sheets that I will need. I just want to be sure I get the right stuff.
At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet.
Ed A Thanks for the response Dave....much appreciated My only concern was that there are more than one type of this insulation and I was concerned about getting the correct stuff. I've watched some videos on using this for scenery and was quite impressed with the result, even if it is a little messy, it's "dry" messy ya know? I've used most of the other methods, such as hardshell and other "plaster" related processes in the past with satisfactory results, but i was impressed with the results obtained with foam for the effort required. The layout im building is a 11X10 foot HO "walk in" sorta of C shaped (it's a slightly modified Byron Hendersen track plan actually). There are no grades and I was interested in the foam for its ability to provide extremely easy below grade scenery. i intend to put down 4" of the foam on top of 1/2" plywood and then the cork roadbed and track. i can then easily model below track level scenery without cutting wood or other nasty bits. I'll check around for a dumpster prize, but I don't mind spending a few bucks for the two or three sheets that I will need. I just want to be sure I get the right stuff. At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet. Ed
Neither expanded or extruded foam is meant to be used where people are, however, most people are not model railroaders. The expanded foam gives off higher "off-gases" than extruded does, that being said it is no worse than all the rest of the plastics in the home.
Expanded foam holds moisture to a much greater degree and when you think of all the paints and glues and washes we use, these will just soak in and the mold fight could be on! I think we have all seen the beaded foam laying by the side of the road with the black moldy tinge on it.
Over the years I have used both kinds of foam to poke sticks into and hold things for painting. Neither foam liked some of the paints I used, however, the extruded foam stood up to chemical abuse better than the expanded (beaded) type.
Expanded foam also breaks much easier and is way easier to knock a chunk out of. IMO the extruded foam is worth the extra few shekels.
Here is a video on the moisture issue.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Thanks for the input. All taken into consdieration....much appreciated.
Ed.
BATMAN Neither expanded or extruded foam is meant to be used where people are, however, most people are not model railroaders. The expanded foam gives off higher "off-gases" than extruded does, that being said it is no worse than all the rest of the plastics in the home. Expanded foam holds moisture to a much greater degree and when you think of all the paints and glues and washes we use, these will just soak in and the mold fight could be on! I think we have all seen the beaded foam laying by the side of the road with the black moldy tinge on it. Over the years I have used both kinds of foam to poke sticks into and hold things for painting. Neither foam liked some of the paints I used, however, the extruded foam stood up to chemical abuse better than the expanded (beaded) type. Expanded foam also breaks much easier and is way easier to knock a chunk out of. IMO the extruded foam is worth the extra few shekels. Here is a video on the moisture issue.
rrebellWhy? You don't need that much material
Actually, he does, at least for the foam. 1/2 plywood underneath might be overkill. I used the thinnest luan plywood that Home Depot sells. I think Ken Patterson uses 3 layers of 2" for most of his modules. You can find his videos on Youtube.
If you carve out a 130' turntable, you have seriously weakened the standard 2" of foam, it that is all you are using.
Creating negative elevation is a messy business with foam. The foam cutting hot wires aren't really shaped well to carve a valley. If you can plan where you need elevation and where you don't, you can selectively add 3/4, 1 or 2" of foam where you really need it.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Thanks Henry
Well the 1/2" plywood went down on the benchwork yesterday so I think we'll be sticking with that for the moment overkill or not. The bench work is very nice and sturdy I will say.
the Walthers TT manual says you need 6 " of vertical clearance for the pit hole, yet looking at it i really don't see how it would need more than about 3 maybe 3 1/2". With 4" of foam I'm hoping not to have to drill anything more than maybe a 1" hole in the plywood base to feed wiring through to the turntable. would rather not have to cut an 18" hole in the plywood, although that is doable of course if necessary
Anyone know if it really needs 6"? I can only speculate that it might be required for motor cooling?...although that seems unlikely unless you plan on using it constantly. It doesn't look like it is needed for clearance unless I'm missing something.
thanks for the input folks, much appreciated. Getting close to the fun part....laying out the track work...oh boy oh boy.
Accually there are tools, hot wire and others that can carve valleys (they can excede the temp for safe use without ventilation temp though which Woodland Scenics dose not). The frame makes all the difference in using foam, you need a box frame if you don't use ply under it. I cut in a few deep valleys for my last layout, even had to modify the box frame of one section. I did this with a saw to bacic shape (this part was a little messy but not as bad as people would make you beleive), and finished off with hot wire. In fact this was so deep that I added lots more foam under it by caulking in place. I must say that it is much easier if you plan as I did under my tall trestle which was aprox. 15 " in height with footings.
Ed AI was interested in the foam for its ability to provide extremely easy below grade scenery. i intend to put down 4" of the foam on top of 1/2" plywood and then the cork roadbed and track. i can then easily model below track level scenery without cutting wood or other nasty bits.
Here is the thing about foam. It is just a method of creating a land form. It makes no sense to me to put a big sheet of foam down and then have to cut a lot of it away, just to get a land form below or above track grade level.
What makes so much more sense to me is to build the track on risers above the benchwork - say maybe 4 inches or whatever you need to allow ground level to drop below grade. Then rather than take all this foam, and cut volumes of it away, why not using cardboard strips and hot glue them from the edge of the layout and over to the edge of the track subroad bed, either below or above it. It's simple economy and effort.
Here is an example (you don't need to use as much cardboard as I did) of where I wanted a river below the track grade. I used Luann for a flat surface below track grade attached a bit above the open grid frame.
Then I attached strips of cardboard to create a river bank and land form between the river and the track.
You can do the same between the edge of the layout and the subroadbed as well.
So cardboard just substitutes for foam to create a land form, and with just cardboard and hot glue, it's less messy.
Now whether or not you use foam or cardboard, you going to need to cover it with something be it plaster gauz or plaster of Paris or both, so it's not really an either/or thing the way I see it. Otherwise if you just paint the foam, its going to look like painted foam. You need to hide the cut shape and the seams where layers of foam come together. Hence, you still need plaster cloth and/or plaster of Paris or Sculpta mold or you name it.
At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet. Ed
I would suggest simply starting a new topic for the above question.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Foam can be free, except the one you sit the track on. If you plan right you build up the layers of foam, only if you change your mind will you have to dig. If you build it right you can lean on foam with no damage and you don't know how strong foam is till you try to dismantle a layout. Foam is also realy fast once you learn the tricks. When you put on the plaster cloth and stretch it, the seams disapear. After trying it I would never go back to the old ways.
Ed A At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet. Ed
Mostly, I have roadbed on top of 2 inches of pink foam, but it's the same. I have done a thicker base installation, which worked fine. You may need a wider hole for the throw wire. I get "music wire" from the hardware store, cut it and bend it to shape according to the template provided by Circuitron with the Tortoise. It has to be longer, of course. This wire is a bit thicker than the short wire supplied, so you may need to drill out the holes both in the Tortoise and the throw bars. It's also easier if you use a file to round off the ends of the wire so they slip in more easily.
Get a good heavy pair of pliers/cutters for this. The thick wire will destroy light duty wire cutters. And you nice Xuron rail cutters are ONLY for cutting rails!
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
rrebellFoam can be free,
Where do you "half-inch", as my wife would say, that free foam?
When you put on the plaster cloth and stretch it, the seams disapear.
Logical.
What do you cover the plaster cloth with to get rid of the cloth pattern? I used a thin layer of plaster of Paris; up until then there was little or no mess, the part that goes under the plaster cloth.
After trying it I would never go back to the old ways. Add Quote to your Post
Naturally we all have to work with what we like and are comfortable with. I hope you'll forgive me if I stay with "the old ways". I'm a student of the Rob Spangler scenery school. Gorgeous stuff!
Packing material for free foam, save all the flat foam. I zip texture it and if you know how to use plaster cloth right, there is almost no cloth pattern. Plaster cloth comes with two sides, one has more plaster than the other, you want the more plaster side up and smooth it with your hands, then after it dries you zip texture it. You can stay with your old ways, I may be old too but I go with what works best. When I built my last layout, I experimented with everything. There is someone on the net that says beaded foam is dangerous so I did resurch myself by doing things like turn on a souldering iron on it, leave a lit match on it, etc, etc. In a hobby usage, cold not get it to burn much (bult a small fire on it), mainly it melted. For electrical I did resurch on line on foresic forums, found out the fire department blames alot of fires on house wiring but that it is almost impossible to do that, even though the experts tried.