Packing material for free foam, save all the flat foam. I zip texture it and if you know how to use plaster cloth right, there is almost no cloth pattern. Plaster cloth comes with two sides, one has more plaster than the other, you want the more plaster side up and smooth it with your hands, then after it dries you zip texture it. You can stay with your old ways, I may be old too but I go with what works best. When I built my last layout, I experimented with everything. There is someone on the net that says beaded foam is dangerous so I did resurch myself by doing things like turn on a souldering iron on it, leave a lit match on it, etc, etc. In a hobby usage, cold not get it to burn much (bult a small fire on it), mainly it melted. For electrical I did resurch on line on foresic forums, found out the fire department blames alot of fires on house wiring but that it is almost impossible to do that, even though the experts tried.
rrebellFoam can be free,
Where do you "half-inch", as my wife would say, that free foam?
When you put on the plaster cloth and stretch it, the seams disapear.
Logical.
What do you cover the plaster cloth with to get rid of the cloth pattern? I used a thin layer of plaster of Paris; up until then there was little or no mess, the part that goes under the plaster cloth.
After trying it I would never go back to the old ways. Add Quote to your Post
Naturally we all have to work with what we like and are comfortable with. I hope you'll forgive me if I stay with "the old ways". I'm a student of the Rob Spangler scenery school. Gorgeous stuff!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Ed A At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet. Ed
At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet.
Ed
Mostly, I have roadbed on top of 2 inches of pink foam, but it's the same. I have done a thicker base installation, which worked fine. You may need a wider hole for the throw wire. I get "music wire" from the hardware store, cut it and bend it to shape according to the template provided by Circuitron with the Tortoise. It has to be longer, of course. This wire is a bit thicker than the short wire supplied, so you may need to drill out the holes both in the Tortoise and the throw bars. It's also easier if you use a file to round off the ends of the wire so they slip in more easily.
Get a good heavy pair of pliers/cutters for this. The thick wire will destroy light duty wire cutters. And you nice Xuron rail cutters are ONLY for cutting rails!
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Foam can be free, except the one you sit the track on. If you plan right you build up the layers of foam, only if you change your mind will you have to dig. If you build it right you can lean on foam with no damage and you don't know how strong foam is till you try to dismantle a layout. Foam is also realy fast once you learn the tricks. When you put on the plaster cloth and stretch it, the seams disapear. After trying it I would never go back to the old ways.
Ed AI was interested in the foam for its ability to provide extremely easy below grade scenery. i intend to put down 4" of the foam on top of 1/2" plywood and then the cork roadbed and track. i can then easily model below track level scenery without cutting wood or other nasty bits.
Here is the thing about foam. It is just a method of creating a land form. It makes no sense to me to put a big sheet of foam down and then have to cut a lot of it away, just to get a land form below or above track grade level.
What makes so much more sense to me is to build the track on risers above the benchwork - say maybe 4 inches or whatever you need to allow ground level to drop below grade. Then rather than take all this foam, and cut volumes of it away, why not using cardboard strips and hot glue them from the edge of the layout and over to the edge of the track subroad bed, either below or above it. It's simple economy and effort.
Here is an example (you don't need to use as much cardboard as I did) of where I wanted a river below the track grade. I used Luann for a flat surface below track grade attached a bit above the open grid frame.
Then I attached strips of cardboard to create a river bank and land form between the river and the track.
You can do the same between the edge of the layout and the subroadbed as well.
So cardboard just substitutes for foam to create a land form, and with just cardboard and hot glue, it's less messy.
Now whether or not you use foam or cardboard, you going to need to cover it with something be it plaster gauz or plaster of Paris or both, so it's not really an either/or thing the way I see it. Otherwise if you just paint the foam, its going to look like painted foam. You need to hide the cut shape and the seams where layers of foam come together. Hence, you still need plaster cloth and/or plaster of Paris or Sculpta mold or you name it.
At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet. Ed
I would suggest simply starting a new topic for the above question.
Accually there are tools, hot wire and others that can carve valleys (they can excede the temp for safe use without ventilation temp though which Woodland Scenics dose not). The frame makes all the difference in using foam, you need a box frame if you don't use ply under it. I cut in a few deep valleys for my last layout, even had to modify the box frame of one section. I did this with a saw to bacic shape (this part was a little messy but not as bad as people would make you beleive), and finished off with hot wire. In fact this was so deep that I added lots more foam under it by caulking in place. I must say that it is much easier if you plan as I did under my tall trestle which was aprox. 15 " in height with footings.
Thanks Henry
Well the 1/2" plywood went down on the benchwork yesterday so I think we'll be sticking with that for the moment overkill or not. The bench work is very nice and sturdy I will say.
the Walthers TT manual says you need 6 " of vertical clearance for the pit hole, yet looking at it i really don't see how it would need more than about 3 maybe 3 1/2". With 4" of foam I'm hoping not to have to drill anything more than maybe a 1" hole in the plywood base to feed wiring through to the turntable. would rather not have to cut an 18" hole in the plywood, although that is doable of course if necessary
Anyone know if it really needs 6"? I can only speculate that it might be required for motor cooling?...although that seems unlikely unless you plan on using it constantly. It doesn't look like it is needed for clearance unless I'm missing something.
thanks for the input folks, much appreciated. Getting close to the fun part....laying out the track work...oh boy oh boy.
rrebellWhy? You don't need that much material
Actually, he does, at least for the foam. 1/2 plywood underneath might be overkill. I used the thinnest luan plywood that Home Depot sells. I think Ken Patterson uses 3 layers of 2" for most of his modules. You can find his videos on Youtube.
If you carve out a 130' turntable, you have seriously weakened the standard 2" of foam, it that is all you are using.
Creating negative elevation is a messy business with foam. The foam cutting hot wires aren't really shaped well to carve a valley. If you can plan where you need elevation and where you don't, you can selectively add 3/4, 1 or 2" of foam where you really need it.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BATMAN Neither expanded or extruded foam is meant to be used where people are, however, most people are not model railroaders. The expanded foam gives off higher "off-gases" than extruded does, that being said it is no worse than all the rest of the plastics in the home. Expanded foam holds moisture to a much greater degree and when you think of all the paints and glues and washes we use, these will just soak in and the mold fight could be on! I think we have all seen the beaded foam laying by the side of the road with the black moldy tinge on it. Over the years I have used both kinds of foam to poke sticks into and hold things for painting. Neither foam liked some of the paints I used, however, the extruded foam stood up to chemical abuse better than the expanded (beaded) type. Expanded foam also breaks much easier and is way easier to knock a chunk out of. IMO the extruded foam is worth the extra few shekels. Here is a video on the moisture issue.
Neither expanded or extruded foam is meant to be used where people are, however, most people are not model railroaders. The expanded foam gives off higher "off-gases" than extruded does, that being said it is no worse than all the rest of the plastics in the home.
Expanded foam holds moisture to a much greater degree and when you think of all the paints and glues and washes we use, these will just soak in and the mold fight could be on! I think we have all seen the beaded foam laying by the side of the road with the black moldy tinge on it.
Over the years I have used both kinds of foam to poke sticks into and hold things for painting. Neither foam liked some of the paints I used, however, the extruded foam stood up to chemical abuse better than the expanded (beaded) type.
Expanded foam also breaks much easier and is way easier to knock a chunk out of. IMO the extruded foam is worth the extra few shekels.
Here is a video on the moisture issue.
Thanks for the input. All taken into consdieration....much appreciated.
Ed.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Ed A Thanks for the response Dave....much appreciated My only concern was that there are more than one type of this insulation and I was concerned about getting the correct stuff. I've watched some videos on using this for scenery and was quite impressed with the result, even if it is a little messy, it's "dry" messy ya know? I've used most of the other methods, such as hardshell and other "plaster" related processes in the past with satisfactory results, but i was impressed with the results obtained with foam for the effort required. The layout im building is a 11X10 foot HO "walk in" sorta of C shaped (it's a slightly modified Byron Hendersen track plan actually). There are no grades and I was interested in the foam for its ability to provide extremely easy below grade scenery. i intend to put down 4" of the foam on top of 1/2" plywood and then the cork roadbed and track. i can then easily model below track level scenery without cutting wood or other nasty bits. I'll check around for a dumpster prize, but I don't mind spending a few bucks for the two or three sheets that I will need. I just want to be sure I get the right stuff. At the risk of hijacking a thread here i was wondering about installing slow motion turtle switch machines and mounting them under 5" of roadbed, foam and plywood? Haven't been able to find anybody that has done that yet. Ed
Thanks for the response Dave....much appreciated
My only concern was that there are more than one type of this insulation and I was concerned about getting the correct stuff. I've watched some videos on using this for scenery and was quite impressed with the result, even if it is a little messy, it's "dry" messy ya know?
I've used most of the other methods, such as hardshell and other "plaster" related processes in the past with satisfactory results, but i was impressed with the results obtained with foam for the effort required.
The layout im building is a 11X10 foot HO "walk in" sorta of C shaped (it's a slightly modified Byron Hendersen track plan actually). There are no grades and I was interested in the foam for its ability to provide extremely easy below grade scenery. i intend to put down 4" of the foam on top of 1/2" plywood and then the cork roadbed and track. i can then easily model below track level scenery without cutting wood or other nasty bits.
I'll check around for a dumpster prize, but I don't mind spending a few bucks for the two or three sheets that I will need. I just want to be sure I get the right stuff.
Ed Aim trying to source the appropriate type of extruded foam insulation.
Hi Ed A,
Welcome to the forums!!
The blue stuff is the right foam.
Actually, I don't think it matters whether the foam is blue or pink. That's just brand differentiation. Some people use white styrofoam but the little beads create a real mess. If you are grinding or sanding the others they can be messy too.
Before you start spending money on foam, you might consider checking the local construction sites. There is often lots of waste foam and the site managers are usually happy to have someone take it away for them. Do ask for permission first.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hi
im trying to source the appropriate type of extruded foam insulation. The only type I can find locally in southern ontario is
DOW
Cladmate CM20 insulation
It's blue but I don't know if it is the correct type of foam.
Can anyone the correct type to buy?
Anybody?>...thanks in advance
doctorwayne...and while I worked slowly and methodically so as to not make a lot of dust, pretty-well all of the lower level visible in the photo was covered in a layer of it.
Ooops! I'll remember that.
Thanks for your kind words, Brian.
I also discovered the way to save photos from photobucket, as I lost two years worth of my own photos and about another 800 photos from an acquaintance, which I was saving for a friend and for my own modelling references, when my old computer erased them all from a flashdrive.The 800 are gone for good, as are many of my own, but the ones which I put into photobucket can be recovered by a simple "right-click" on the enlarged image and a "save-as". I usually catalogue my model photos by year, putting them on a disc or flash drive, and the mishap occurred as I was trying to add one more photo, which I had overlooked previously.
I'm sure that they'll all end-up in the garbage when I'm gone, but they're sometimes useful for me, especially the construction photos, when I need to "remember" how I had done something.
Wayne
Doctorwayne, I always enjoy your postings and photos !!(and I found a way to save your photobucket photos)
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
If possible, do the screening somewhere other than where the layout is. I did mine while sitting on a chair in this aisle of the layout room...
...and while I worked slowly and methodically so as to not make a lot of dust, pretty-well all of the lower level visible in the photo was covered in a layer of it.
Structures and bridges, along with trains, vehicles and other details, all got a coating of it, requiring either vacuuming in-place or off-layout, or cleaning with a brush. The Maitland River, nowhere near the site of the sifting, got a good layer, as seen here being vacuumed with the bridge removed...
...and the same for Chippawa Creek, at the far end of the aisle, seen here partially vacuumed...
Once seived to an acceptable size and with the dust removed, the ballast is quite clean and shouldn't create any dust problems when ballasting.
doctorwayneI used some of the remaining bigger stuff yesterday to set a small walkway across the driveway in the backyard, as the grandkids don't like walking on gravel in their bare feet to get to the pool.
I was wondering what you did with the rest of the material. I'll ask the club members if anyone has a need for the leftover screenings.
Yeah, that's the same stuff, Dave. If I recall correctly, I saved a container of ballast and a container of mostly dust (the latter for use on industrial sidings, probably mixed with some real dirt and some ground foam....maybe some static grass, too. I used some of the remaining bigger stuff yesterday to set a small walkway across the driveway in the backyard, as the grandkids don't like walking on gravel in their bare feet to get to the pool.
Thanks Wayne - lots of great information.
If I can ask another question, were the limestone screenings that you bought at the lumber store the same thing that is commonly used as a base for paving stones, i.e. the larger pieces are about 1/4" across?
hon30critterHi again gang! I have a couple more questions for doctorwayne: I'd like to know how much Durabond 90 you used. Can you calculate how much per square foot, or do you have another way of figuring out how much? Do you put the Durabond straight on to the wire screen or do you use something to stop it from flowing through? How do you keep your trees up straight?....
Dave, I'm afraid that I'm not organised enough to measure or calculate the amount of Durabond I use: I also use it when I'm doing mostly small-ish drywall projects for family members...when the amount in the bag gets low, I just go out and buy another.
I usually apply it to the aluminum screen using a wide scraper or drywall knife, and it's mixed thick enough that it needs to be spread around with the tool. It therefore varies in thickness, depending on both the shape I want and by the amount the screen sags under the weight. As you've probably noticed, the unforested parts of my layout don't necessarily have proper geography because I know that it will eventually be hidden by the trees.If the landforms will be more visible, I use a cheap 2" paint brush, dipped frequently in water, to smooth the contours before the Durabond sets, and sometimes use my hand, too. In both areas, spreading the Durabond does force some of it through the screen, but in my experience, not enough to fall to the floor below. Because it does go through the screen, I think that's what gives it the extra strength which allows me to support most of my weight on it - reinforced plaster!
As for trees, when the plaster has hardened and I'm adding ground cover and trees, pretty-well all trees need to have holes drilled, preferable closely sized-to-suit. I simply put a blob of white or yellow glue on the bottom of the tree's trunk and jam it into the hole. In most cases, the tree will stand on its own, but if it doesn't or doesn't stand in the manner you want, simply use something to prop it up until the glue hardens.
hon30critterWhile I'm at it, can I ask everyone how much track (single) a bottle of Woodland Scenics ballast will cover? Likewise, how much Arizona Rock and Mineral ballast is needed to cover a three foot length of flex track?
Hey, Dave, that's like the "How long is a string?" question. Again, I'm not organised enough to bother measuring, but then I certainly didn't have as much track to ballast as your club's layout has.It will, of course, depend a lot on how deep you apply it and on the profile of your roadbed.I started out modelling parts of two different railroads (both freelanced), and decided that they didn't get their ballast from the same quarries, so used two different WS's colours.
That's Grand Valley trackage to the left, below, and Erie Northshore's heading right...
When I added the partial second level, I also used some fine limestone screenings given to me by a good friend in Ohio. When that ran out, I bought two or three 50lb. bags of limestone screenings locally (there are lots of quarries in my area), and after screening it further, got useable ballast that's somewhat different in appearance (quelle-surprise!) than the stuff from Ohio. This is very prototypical, because a railroad is likely to buy ballast fairly close to where it's needed or where they can get it at a good price. If you have a few "I wanna help but I'm really inept." club members, maybe you could put them to work re-screening screenings.Perhaps I'm a little more organised than I thought - the blue container shown below, from my friend in Ohio, weighed about 10lbs. give-or-take, of ballast...
...and from there to to the curve in the distance....
and then around the curve, too...
That included some areas of quite deep ballast (atop rip-rap)...
...and a bunch of double track too...
In total, though, that's only about 40' of track. While that ballast was free, the screenings which I purchased at a local lumber yard were five bucks for a 50lb. bag. (I went to a nearby quarry first, but they no longer sold directly to the consumer - I used to buy gravel there regularly, and a pick-up truck load - close to two tons - was $20.00.) I would guess that the five dollar bag of screenings, on normal track, would go at least as far as a container of WS ballast, and at less than half the cost. However, it is not ready-to-use: I sieved mine four times using progressively finer mesh, the last being through a spatter-guard meant for a frying pan.
I use pink foam for my basic landscape structure. I cut it either with a knife or a hot wire cutter and attach it with white glue. I keep the sections small, only a few feet long, so I can take them apart if necessary. The beauty of foam is that it's very light.
Next I use plaster cloth to cover the foam, using it to bridge gaps and smooth over the cut lines.
I mix batches of Gypsolite and add craft paint to color it tan, not its normal gray. I apply a skim coat. The result is an earth colored, gritty surface ready to paint.
I typically brish on washes of green and tan in a camouflage pattern. When the paint dries, I start with turf and then finish with ground foam and different shades and lengths of static grass.
Hi again gang!
I have a couple more questions for doctorwayne:
I'd like to know how much Durabond 90 you used. Can you calculate how much per square foot, or do you have another way of figuring out how much?
Do you put the Durabond straight on to the wire screen or do you use something to stop it from flowing through?
How do you keep your trees up straight?
While I'm at it, can I ask everyone how much track (single) a bottle of Woodland Scenics ballast will cover? Likewise, how much Arizona Rock and Mineral ballast is needed to cover a three foot length of flex track?
Thanks,
CNSF, dmikee and Brendan:
Thanks for the suggestions.
If you can get extruded foam cheaply or for free, I'd recommend starting with that and see how far it takes you. There may be certain situations where you may decide other methods will work better, but I'm having success using foam for pretty much everything, with applications of "goop" over top as needed to fill gaps or get the exact contours or textures I want. The biggest advantage is probably that you work it dry; so you can stop work and come back to it later whenever you want. You can carve rock faces or gullies directly into it; use a rasp or sandpaper to shape and texture a field or whatever, stack it up (or down) for mountains or river valleys, etc. And it's much easier to plant trees or telephone poles in than a rock-hard surface.
Yes, you need to have the shop vac on hand and clean up as you go, but I still prefer that to dealing with spilled plaster drips. A tip: because the filter in my vac doesn't always catch all the fine particles, I've added another filter over the exhaust using a scrap of old panty hose and a rubber band. That works really well at keeping tiny flecks of foam from showing up all over the layout room.