Thanks for the details Mel.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
[quote user="hon30critter"
RR_Mel I’ve used premix Paper Mache for over 50 years as a sub base for it’s strength and durability.
Hi Mel:
Where do you get your Papier Mache and who is the manufacturer?
EDIT: I found a product called 'Celluclay'. Is that what you use? Also, how large an area will a 5 lb. bag cover?
Thanks,
[/quote]
riogrande5761 Tinplate Toddler Dave, instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue? That sounds really messy. I've used the plaster cloth and it's pretty minimal in terms of fuss and mess. I just cut square of it, dip it in water that is in a paint roller tray and lay it on the subscenery - cardboard stripping. Not much to dislike and not very messy.
Tinplate Toddler Dave, instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue?
Dave,
instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue?
That sounds really messy. I've used the plaster cloth and it's pretty minimal in terms of fuss and mess. I just cut square of it, dip it in water that is in a paint roller tray and lay it on the subscenery - cardboard stripping. Not much to dislike and not very messy.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Tinplate Toddlerinstead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue?
I think that the consistancy could be a problem unless you were able to grind the foam 'chunks' into finer pieces. However, if you could figure out a way to do that without creating even more mess, the ground foam could certainly be mixed in with whatever material like Scultamold that you are using.
I don't think that just adding straight glue to the foam bits would work. It would take too long for it to firm up. I can see it slowly flowing off of any non-horizontal surface it was applied to long before it becomes firm enough to stay in place.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate ToddlerThere is no method which does not create a mess, but I found building up the landscape on my last layout using extruded polystyrol (Styrofoam or "pink foam") less messy than any other method. A good shop vac takes care of all those tiny scraps and bits of foam quite efficiently.
Hi Ulrich:
Given that we will have a source of pink foam at no cost, I'm going to recommend that we make extensive use of it. We will just have to deal with the errant bits with our shop vac, and maybe some anti-static spray.
However, I still anticipate the need for some sort of covering over the foam in order to do away with the appearance of even layers. I have seen too many layouts where the layers of foam are obvious. Kudos to the layout makers for their efforts, but as the construction foreman I will not allow that to occur on the club layout. Scultamold, rock molds and plaster cloth are easy fixes for the layered appearance. Yes, there will be some additional mess. I will just have to make sure that nobody puts the excess plaster down the drain!
Should the answers in this thread be representative, the majority of model railroaders seem to prefer traditional (or should I say old fashioned?) methods of creating the scenery on their layouts.
There is no method which does not create a mess, but I found building up the landscape on my last layout using extruded polystyrol (Styrofoam or "pink foam") less messy than any other method. A good shop vac takes care of all those tiny scraps and bits of foam quite efficiently.
There is one big advantage the use of foam for scenery has - it´s a dry process. Water and "trains" with their rather delicate electronics don´t mix well and so does lumber and water. Ceertainly a point to think about!
Schuylkill and Susquehanna:
Thanks for the suggestions. I will look up the article you mentioned.
By the way, Mike Lehman has made very effective use of chenille to make tons of background trees quickly and easily.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/243702/2714178.aspx#2714178
This will give you an idea of what the material looks like and how to make trees out of it (although personally I would avoid the sparkles):
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/make-glitter-trees-from-chenille-bumps-2365046
Guy:
Thanks for your input. It is not "too much from me" at all!
If you want strong - use either hydrocal or casting plaster over screen. Base coat 2 layers of plaster soaked paper towels and a finish coat over that. I prefer slow set plaster for the finish that is not rock outcropping. I've used this method on several layouts.
The plaster sets up like cement and is very durable. I had to use a heavy weight hammer to smash through some hydrocal when removing the last layout - the sawzall couldn't get the job done!! I'm sure the Durabond is similar in terms of durability.
I don't feel that goop, paper mache or plaster of Paris will give the durability and strength to stand up to that "one guy who likes to lean on scenery" that seems to be in every group.
To save money buy plaster in big bags at the plaster and lath supply store (not WS or HD) - there is one in most medium sized cities.
To much from me,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Shaping foam is difficult (and makes a huge mess) unless you use a hot wire cutter. I don't have one, so I tend to stay away from making landforms out of foam. I've also found it to be difficult to get shallow slopes or near-vertical slopes - any time when you have to make a cut at a shallow angle. I've use a keyhole saw, a rasp, and sandpaper.
I tend to prefer cardboard strips over profile boards with plaster cloth and Sculpamold (or a homemade variant made using plaster of paris and paper that's been run through a blender). It still makes a bit of a mess (what doesn't in this hobby), but it's nothing in comparison to finding little bits of pink foam all over for months. Since you have an abundance of foam insulation, I'd suggest using that for profile boards instead of masonite, chipboard, or plywood.
The techniques presented in "Broad Backdrop Hills in a Narrow Space" by Sam Swanson (March 2009 MR) might work well around the edges of the layout. The mountains were made from 3 or 4 inch thick pieces of foam board 18 to 24 inches tall, and greatly extend the visual depth of the layout when covered with puffball trees. Conifers present a slight problem, but there is likely a way to make large numbers of "flattened" trees that could be used to forest the hills. Perhaps by pressing pipe cleaner trees between two wax paper covered boards while the glue and ground foam dry?
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
Thanks selector.
We overestimated the number of 1x4s that we needed for the benchwork so we have lots of material to support the scenery.
I use a combination of techniques for the sake of skills development/maintenance, to change things up a bit so I don't get into a rut doing one loooooonnnng task, and to use the right materials for the right job.
As some have pointed out, extruded foam is durable. It can have coverings for extra fine contouring. It can be patched up when an elbow goes into it.
If you want really tough and resistant covering closest to where inadvertent/impulsive contact is likely to cause damage to more friable materials, I would urge you to use exterior spackle. It's like concrete and not easily sanded, if at all, once it is set...as the instructions on my batch caution me. Durabond of the kind that Doc Wayne uses might be close to that.
I use Joe Fugate's goop over aluminum or plastic window screen supported via 'arms' of 1X2 comprising a riser cleated to the benchwork and then cross members of more 1X2. It's quite strong that way, and the screen across longer expanses can be supported with plastic bags stuffed with rags or newspaper crumpled up for resistance. If you want convex slopes, use more bags stuffed behind the screening. If you wanted truly hard and durable surfaces, you could shape foam, or lattice, or the ground goop, and just apply a top coat of spackle where you anticipate you'll need the most robust material to keep effort, materials, and costs to a minimum.
In the image that follows, note the support struts I mention, but also the roll of polyfiber flocking used to suspend and to shape the screening over an intended tunnel.
My experience with paper mache is that it cracks over time, so i did not suggest it.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
Hi Richard:
Thanks for the reminder about Sculptamold. Less shrinkage may make it a better option than papier mache.
As far as mould is concerned, the layout room does have a very faint musty smell sometimes but I attribute that to the very old carpet and a very poor ventilation system. It hasn't affected any members that we are aware of so I'm not inclined to worry about it too much. There is no sign of mould in the windows, and we can open the windows when the weather permits.
Don't see an answer to your question on paper mache (sp). There is a product called Sculptamold that is often used and I understand it doesn't shrink as much. As for mold, another additive to the mix that some people use is Lysol. Never had a mold problem, so have never used anything.
Good luck,
Richard
I've seen more than one article that mentions throwing a capful of bleach in when mixing papier mache to keep the mold out.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I think I recall a fellow mentioning this problem on his very mountainous layout during a tour of layouts in the DC area,...and it was inside a home.
I would be concerned about this problem with my outdoor shed contained layout that will not always be strickly climate controlled.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
railandsailI think one problem with the papier maches and cardboad is they are materials that can absorb moisture over time, and thus possible develop molds, etc
I had my aluminum sided house power washed last year and it's moldy again. The wall paper in my dining room has been there for 18 and there is no mold yet. It has to be pretty damp, indoors, to have a mold issue.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I think one problem with the papier maches and cardboad is they are materials that can absorb moisture over time, and thus possible develop molds, etc
Hi rrebell:
Thanks for the suggestions.
We are hoping to be able to get pink foam scraps for free. One of our members is a stone mason and he says he can get a ton of it from the construction sites he is on.
I prefer beaded foam. You can get it for free alot of the time and cuts like butter with a hot wire. I cover this with plaster cloth (cheap if you buy in bulk non name brand). Then I do a type of zip texturing for dirt. Trees stand up well in this and can be stuck anywhere. Rock castings can be blended in with no troubles. With practice in is not very messy. Note: most people it seems do not know how to use plaster cloth, you don't just lay it on and leave it and you need to put one side up on some brands as the other side has little plaster and you need to smoth the plaster or you get little holes. Another thing people forget to do is get rid of loose strings.
Brent, that will be an interesting scene!
Dave, here I am going to have a canyon to the floor. For a while, I have been thinking the aluminum mesh with Waynes Durabond. That mesh is awesome stuff
I may also experiment in laying/gluing thinly sliced pieces of foam on the mesh and see how that works. I have been experimenting laying thinly slices foam on flat surfaces such as plywood and foam to offer up a more realistic looking undulating landscape and have been surprised by how good it looks once it is painted and has dirt and foliage added.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
You could always try both methods (foam and cardboard strips) and that way you can see how they both work and gain a sense of you you like/dislike/prefer.
RR_MelI’ve used premix Paper Mache for over 50 years as a sub base for it’s strength and durability.
Thanks Brian. The new link works. Interesting idea. Another option to consider.
I corrected that video link,...I thinkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C6aHEoUWYg
I believe with all this new ECCESSIVE advertising, etc on videos etc it makes it harder to makethe exact link. Apparently the link I provided before was to a portion of the video that was already running??
...makes use of 'quilt batting'
Thanks for all the answers everyone. As with the other layout construction questions that I have asked, your answers will help us focus on how we want to do things.
As I mentioned, we have a source for pink or blue foam scraps including larger blocks which are not carried in the building supply stores. That will give foam an edge I think, but the decisions haven't been made yet.
Brent, thanks for the suggestion on the expanded aluminum mesh. The price is certainly attractive and it would allow for larger areas to be worked on at one time than the foam would. It would also be faster than cardboard slats.
Mel, the papier mache is interesting but I'm a little concerned about the shrinkage issue. It could be applied in short sections with the gaps being filled in after the initial sections have dried.
Steve, thanks for bring up the subject of how to divide up the various individual tasks.
Wayne, how thick do you apply the Durabond? I have worked with it before and it certainly does set up rock hard! I'm guessing that you would require a masonary bit to drill holes.
Simon, thanks for reminding me about providing work surfaces for assembling trains. We had discussed building some pull-out shelves in a few spots. We also discussed building some shelving units on wheels that could be used to unbox cars and would then provide a place to temporarily store the boxes out of the way under the layout.
My initial thoughts are to use foam in the large open area in the center of the peninsula, and then use the mesh that Brent suggested or cardboard strips in the narrower areas between the different track levels. The large center area could actually be built on foam slabs away from the layout and just dropped into place. It would be easy to fill the gaps between the center area and the sub roadbed.
Brian, I can't see the video.
Thank you everyone! The fog is clearing! I'm beginning to form some concrete ideas about how to do the scenery base.
Please keep the suggestions coming.
I'm sorry Hon3 critter. I thought you wanted different methods. My apologies, although, to my defense, I like almost all of the options I listed!