richhotrain This has been a very interesting discussion, and I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I remain conflicted as to how I will ultimately secure the track. The use of caulk is tempting, but I hesitate to go that route because of the relative permanance of caulk once applied. I have tried track spikes as an experiment over the past few days, but they are small and hard to work with, and very slow going, so I will probably eliminate spikes as an option. That brings me back to track nails. However, I think that nails every 2 inches is overkill - - sorry, Dave. I remain obsessed with the mini cam viewing issue, so I have been experimenting with flat head nails on the ties outside of the rails. My preliminary results are positive. I have been alternating the nails on opposite sides of the track every 6" or so. But, that is still six nails per 36" section of flex track. So, tomorrow, I will see if 4 nails per section is sufficient. One thing that I really like about alternating the nails on opposite sides of the track is that the arrangement seems superior to nailing down the center of the ties between the rails. No wiggle! Rich
This has been a very interesting discussion, and I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.
I remain conflicted as to how I will ultimately secure the track.
The use of caulk is tempting, but I hesitate to go that route because of the relative permanance of caulk once applied.
I have tried track spikes as an experiment over the past few days, but they are small and hard to work with, and very slow going, so I will probably eliminate spikes as an option.
That brings me back to track nails. However, I think that nails every 2 inches is overkill - - sorry, Dave. I remain obsessed with the mini cam viewing issue, so I have been experimenting with flat head nails on the ties outside of the rails. My preliminary results are positive.
I have been alternating the nails on opposite sides of the track every 6" or so. But, that is still six nails per 36" section of flex track. So, tomorrow, I will see if 4 nails per section is sufficient. One thing that I really like about alternating the nails on opposite sides of the track is that the arrangement seems superior to nailing down the center of the ties between the rails. No wiggle!
Rich
Rich, I am interested in your reluctance to try caulk? What bothers you about "permanent"? Are you going to ballast the track?
Just my view, but once ballasted, I have never considered track "reuseable".
Maybe I'm lazy, or just spoiled, but I'm not spending time cleaning old ballast and glue off flex track to reuse it - ModelTrainStuff sells that track by the 100 pc carton, in the big picture of this hobby, Atlas flex track is just something I keep on hand......
With turnouts, my main reason for not putting them down with caulk is to make sure they do not get "clogged up" in any way. And I don't go heavy on the ballast glue around turnouts, mostly it just lays there between the ties. So they can be removed for service (but I have never needed to) and can be reused in most cases.
Just my thoughts, again I like that firm feel like my old TruScale or hand layed track.
Sheldon
I use caulk; a thin layer, a putty knife slipped under track will pop it right off.
My track is moved/relocated 3//4 times before I like it, just pop itup.
I reuse track even after its ballest, soak with wet water,putty knife, and up it comes. As long as the bottem of track is clean, I relay it. I don't care if ''some'' ballest remainds.
I am now rebuilding for the third time, useing same track and turnouts, trains run fine
Just my thoughts and experence
I champher the holes in the ties with a champhering tool to get the head of the nail lower into the tie. To remove, which I am in the process of re-doing some of my track, I use a 8" wonder bar, (I used it to remove crown molding) pushed gently under the tie, and lift up to expose the head. Using the other end of the bar I remove the nails.
herrinchoker
Rich, and there is the problem, nails or spikes always leave the track able to "wiggle" until it is ballasted.
The "wiggle" is one reason I like to use nails or spikes. I find that being able to tweak the track a bit one way or the other is helpful to getting it more precisely like I want it. I put the nails in so the track generally stays put but I can push it a bit one way or another to get it straight or to get a curve a bit more flowing. After I am satisfied things are as I want them, I can ballast the track which makes it permanent; nails can be removed after that is done so none show in the center of ties.
As to how many, at most if you use a nail for every hole molded into Atlas flex track, that should be fine.
doctorwayne Rich, I found that when I first layed the track, using track nails, everything looked good until a couple of days later, and suddenly the "straight" track wasn't. I'm not sure why it changed, as the room temperature varies little, even between summer and winter, and the room is unheated/uncooled, but well insulated. Most of the wiggles could be easily corrected by pushing the nail-head in the proper direction, although a few needed to be pulled and repositioned. I do straights by-eye, as most are too long for any easily manipulated straightedge. I left the layout for a couple of months, to see if anymore movement took place, but there was none, so I went ahead and ballasted. Wayne
Rich, I found that when I first layed the track, using track nails, everything looked good until a couple of days later, and suddenly the "straight" track wasn't. I'm not sure why it changed, as the room temperature varies little, even between summer and winter, and the room is unheated/uncooled, but well insulated. Most of the wiggles could be easily corrected by pushing the nail-head in the proper direction, although a few needed to be pulled and repositioned. I do straights by-eye, as most are too long for any easily manipulated straightedge.
I left the layout for a couple of months, to see if anymore movement took place, but there was none, so I went ahead and ballasted.
Wayne
What Wayne said is pretty close to my experience. I've built 3 layouts with spikes and nails and am satisfied with how it works.
It does seem there is an even split here on the spikers vs. the gluers. All I can say to the OP is try both methods and decide for yourself. All of us seem to be "right" in our own eyes so you'll have to try and see what seems right to you.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
To whoever asked why I hate caulk... because I tried it. I can lay a yard using track spikes in a fraction of the time, I can adjust it more easily, I can adjust it at any time, and I can use it immediately after laying.I USED caulk on my previous layout. NEVER again. I found ABSOLUTELY NO advantage to it.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, I am interested in your reluctance to try caulk? What bothers you about "permanent"?
Rich, I am interested in your reluctance to try caulk? What bothers you about "permanent"?
My go-to source for advice was the owner of my LHS and his sidekick. I started out with sectional track and they said to nail it down, so I did.
As my layout building got more creative, I began to use flex track and, once again, I nailed it down. I paid little to no attention to laying it straight except to eyeball it.
I then spent the next few years taking up the track and relaying it over and over and over again to get it straight, eliminate kinks, humps and valleys.
I installed Tortoises to power the turnouts and that caused me to shift the turnout to locate them correctly over the Tortoises.
So, the thought of using caulk downright scares me.
I am making every effort to get the track work laser straight this time around, but the thought of using caulk still scares me. In fact, it downright frightens me.
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just my view, but once ballasted, I have never considered track "reuseable". Maybe I'm lazy, or just spoiled, but I'm not spending time cleaning old ballast and glue off flex track to reuse it - ModelTrainStuff sells that track by the 100 pc carton, in the big picture of this hobby, Atlas flex track is just something I keep on hand......
I don't know how someone would clean off caulk from the underside of flex track.
UNCLEBUTCH I use caulk; a thin layer, a putty knife slipped under track will pop it right off. My track is moved/relocated 3//4 times before I like it, just pop itup. I reuse track even after its ballest, soak with wet water,putty knife, and up it comes. As long as the bottem of track is clean, I relay it. I don't care if ''some'' ballest remainds. I am now rebuilding for the third time, useing same track and turnouts, trains run fine Just my thoughts and experence
In my experience, anything on the underside of flex track is going to prevent it from laying perfectly flat on the roadbed.
That is just one more thing that scares me about using caulk.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, I am interested in your reluctance to try caulk? What bothers you about "permanent"? When I first laid HO scale track back in early 2004, I was clueless about such stuff, having entered the hobby after a 45-year hiatus from running American Flyer trains as a kid. My go-to source for advice was the owner of my LHS and his sidekick. I started out with sectional track and they said to nail it down, so I did. As my layout building got more creative, I began to use flex track and, once again, I nailed it down. I paid little to no attention to laying it straight except to eyeball it. I then spent the next few years taking up the track and relaying it over and over and over again to get it straight, eliminate kinks, humps and valleys. I installed Tortoises to power the turnouts and that caused me to shift the turnout to locate them correctly over the Tortoises. So, the thought of using caulk downright scares me. I am making every effort to get the track work laser straight this time around, but the thought of using caulk still scares me. In fact, it downright frightens me. Rich
When I first laid HO scale track back in early 2004, I was clueless about such stuff, having entered the hobby after a 45-year hiatus from running American Flyer trains as a kid.
A few last thoughts:
That is why I prefer homasote roadbed, you use straight pieces for straights, and only use the bendable kerfed sections for curves, making it easier to get the straight track straight.
Straight roadbed means straight finished track. That and taking your time to do proper layout in advance. Levels and straight edges are your friend.
The caulk has a good "open" time, you have time to make adjustments.
Best of luck,
BRAKIE Rich, What works for me is 2 spikes every sixth tie. I was taught this method back in the fiber tie days and it still holds true.
Rich, What works for me is 2 spikes every sixth tie. I was taught this method back in the fiber tie days and it still holds true.
riogrande5761 As to how many, at most if you use a nail for every hole molded into Atlas flex track, that should be fine.
I never paid much attention to this, but I count 10 pre-drilled holes on the underside of each piece of flex track. I did not have any new pieces of flex track, only ones in which I trimmed off the ends. But it looks like there is an additional hole pre-drilled on the underside of the second tie on each end of a 36" section of Atlas flex track. So, a total of 12 pre-drilled holes.
As I look at the underside of the flex track, it is evenly divided into 4 segments. Each 9" segment has all of the ties joined on one side, but the other side is divided into eighteen 2-tie joints and one single tie. So, each of the four segments has 37 ties for a total of 148 ties per 36" section of Atlas flex track.
I don't know what all that proves, but if you use every pre-drilled hole, that would require 12 nails or one every 3 inches on average. That seems like an awful lot to me.
richhotrain UNCLEBUTCH I use caulk; a thin layer, a putty knife slipped under track will pop it right off. My track is moved/relocated 3//4 times before I like it, just pop itup. I reuse track even after its ballest, soak with wet water,putty knife, and up it comes. As long as the bottem of track is clean, I relay it. I don't care if ''some'' ballest remainds. I am now rebuilding for the third time, useing same track and turnouts, trains run fine Just my thoughts and experence "As long as the bottom of the track is clean" would seem to be the operative words. How do you clean dried caulk from the underside of flex track? In my experience, anything on the underside of flex track is going to prevent it from laying perfectly flat on the roadbed. That is just one more thing that scares me about using caulk. Rich
"As long as the bottom of the track is clean" would seem to be the operative words. How do you clean dried caulk from the underside of flex track?
Sliding a putty knife under the track to reposition it works fine. The layer of caulk should be thin. Alcohol works well to loosen cured caulk, and I use a kitchen scrub brush to clean the underside if I was reusing the track.
I dont ballast until the roadbed and track right of way have been tested.
- Douglas
richhotrain"As long as the bottom of the track is clean" would seem to be the operative words. How do you clean dried caulk from the underside of flex track?
The caulk is applyed in a very thin layer,more like spread. I use those sample credit cards.
When pulled up, there is very little if any on track. Most of witch is a film like,dosen't affect anything. I have seen a small glob now and then, just rub it off.
Ballest on the bottom will cause issues,but that too will just rub off.
If I were to buy new track, every time I change somthing, I would have to give up my beer.
DoughlessSliding a putty knife under the track to reposition it works fine. The layer of caulk should be thin....
I can see that that would work, but the need to reposition track doesn't always occur during or shortly after the initial track laying.All of the track and turnouts which I've moved or removed were done after ballast was in place, and structures and scenery next to the track would have made it impossible to get a putty knife, let alone the hand holding it, into a position where it could be slid under the track. I think I'll stick with track nails. Rich, most of the track nails which I used had flat heads, and while they're still noticeable on the installed track, if you're looking for them, at least they're not bowling balls. I believe that they were from Model Power.
doctorwayne Doughless Sliding a putty knife under the track to reposition it works fine. The layer of caulk should be thin.... I can see that that would work, but the need to reposition track doesn't always occur during or shortly after the initial track laying.All of the track and turnouts which I've moved or removed were done after ballast was in place, and structures and scenery next to the track would have made it impossible to get a putty knife, let alone the hand holding it, into a position where it could be slid under the track. I think I'll stick with track nails. Rich, most of the track nails which I used had flat heads, and while they're still noticeable on the installed track, if you're looking for them, at least they're not bowling balls. I believe that they were from Model Power. Wayne
Sliding a putty knife under the track to reposition it works fine. The layer of caulk should be thin....
Agreed. Different stages of layout completion can complicate things. I've never had a situation where I had to remove track and roadbed around affixed buildings, but I have successfully repositioned track and roadbed after the caulk had dried by wetting everything.
Its difficult to recaulk roadbed under completed trackwork, but if I didn't like the bond I could always fasten the repositioned area with a few nails.
I would say to Rich, do what you want and whats good for you. I cauked mine, but I have 2" foam under everything, nothing to nail to. My previous "never really completed layouts, just track work" used nails, and Homasote for a base.
On my current layout, using caulk, I have very easily taken up track and turnouts, to make adjustments, and realignments, with no real damage to anything, and the caulk (latex) just peeled off the underside of the track, and all was completely reusable.
You go Rich! By the way, have you ever posted any pictures of your layout? I think I remember one time, you did post something about your Union Station.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi You go Rich! By the way, have you ever posted any pictures of your layout? I think I remember one time, you did post something about your Union Station.
My new layout will follow the footprint of the current layout for the most part, but I will more closely replicate Dearborn Station, especially the large freight houses that dominated the area from the early 1900's to the mid-1950's.
I am debating whether to start a thread on the rebuild.
richhotrainI think that nails every 2 inches is overkill - - sorry, Dave.
Hey Rich:
No need to apologize at all. Nails every 2" doesn't appeal to me either but it seems to be the easiest solution. We were looking at the track again tonight and the curves seem to have stayed in place better than the straights. I'm going to suggest that we only apply more nails on the curves where the need is obvious.
Putting nails on either side of the track would work too, but it still amounts to more nails, and, unless the nails are positioned exactly, they might push the track sideways. That would create a wiggle that would be harder to correct as opposed to just adding another nail a few ties down the track.
Tomorrow night I will discuss adding more nails with the track laying crew leader. We haven't crossed paths since the wiggles were discovered so he may have other ideas on how to fix the problem. I'm not going to demand that he follow my suggestion if he has another way of addressing the problem.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
richhotrainI am debating whether to start a thread on the rebuild.
Yes please Rich.
Peco nails, realitively small heads, in the centre of the tie every 6 inches or there abouts, except on superelevated curves, where I nail on the outside of the rails as required.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
richhotrain ... if you use every pre-drilled hole, that would require 12 nails or one every 3 inches on average. That seems like an awful lot to me. Rich
Track nails are fairly inexpensive so it shouldn't be a problem. But for what it's worth, Atlas flex has holes molded in so they are 2 closer together alternating with one spaced out between them o o o o o o o o o o o o , like that. I us only one of the holes where they are closer spaced so in the example, rather than using 12 nails, I'd only use 8 nails. That has worked fine for me if it matters to you to use less nails. It holds the track securely and in the right curvature or straightness needed. Of course eventually you can ballast the track when you are happy with it and that will security with with matt medium or something similar when ballasted.
The track in the following photo's was all laid with Atlas track nails using only one of the "paired" holes molded into the ties. I used a pin vice to drill them from the bottom so the hole was open at that top.
richhotrain I have been experimenting with track spikes through ties outside of the rails as opposed to my current method of track nails through ties between the rails.
I have been experimenting with track spikes through ties outside of the rails as opposed to my current method of track nails through ties between the rails.
Why not switch to Walthers / Shinohara track then? Instead of having holes drilled in the middle of the ties (like Atlas flextrack), it has tiny holes drilled on each side of the rails about every 7th tie, so you can use small spikes to hold down the track. The result looks a lot like hand-laid track.
https://www.walthers.com/walthers-code-83-track
wjstix richhotrain I have been experimenting with track spikes through ties outside of the rails as opposed to my current method of track nails through ties between the rails. Why not switch to Walthers / Shinohara track then? Instead of having holes drilled in the middle of the ties (like Atlas flextrack), it has tiny holes drilled on each side of the rails about every 7th tie, so you can use small spikes to hold down the track. The result looks a lot like hand-laid track. https://www.walthers.com/walthers-code-83-track
I have yet to purchase any Walthers flex track because it is so much more expensive than Atlas flex track.
riogrande5761 richhotrain ... if you use every pre-drilled hole, that would require 12 nails or one every 3 inches on average. That seems like an awful lot to me. Rich Track nails are fairly inexpensive so it shouldn't be a problem. But for what it's worth, Atlas flex has holes molded in so they are 2 closer together alternating with one spaced out between them o o o o o o o o o o o o , like that. I us only one of the holes where they are closer spaced so in the example, rather than using 12 nails, I'd only use 8 nails. That has worked fine for me if it matters to you to use less nails. It holds the track securely and in the right curvature or straightness needed. Of course eventually you can ballast the track when you are happy with it and that will security with with matt medium or something similar when ballasted. The track in the following photo's was all laid with Atlas track nails using only one of the "paired" holes molded into the ties. I used a pin vice to drill them from the bottom so the hole was open at that top.
richhotrain riogrande5761 richhotrain ... if you use every pre-drilled hole, that would require 12 nails or one every 3 inches on average. That seems like an awful lot to me. Rich Track nails are fairly inexpensive so it shouldn't be a problem. But for what it's worth, Atlas flex has holes molded in so they are 2 closer together alternating with one spaced out between them o o o o o o o o o o o o , like that. I us only one of the holes where they are closer spaced so in the example, rather than using 12 nails, I'd only use 8 nails. That has worked fine for me if it matters to you to use less nails. It holds the track securely and in the right curvature or straightness needed. Of course eventually you can ballast the track when you are happy with it and that will security with with matt medium or something similar when ballasted. The track in the following photo's was all laid with Atlas track nails using only one of the "paired" holes molded into the ties. I used a pin vice to drill them from the bottom so the hole was open at that top. Jim, did you use some sort of straight edge or other guide to hold the track straight while you nailed? Rich
Jim, did you use some sort of straight edge or other guide to hold the track straight while you nailed?
Ive used the quick-sticks product before when nailing (on curves).
I have used nails and caulk. I over-did it on the caulk, and ended up with quite a lot of caulk on the bottom of the track (also cork). I was using code 100 at the time, and didnt care if the ties didnt make it to the next layout.
I removed ties from all flex track. The Peco turnouts I was able to salvage by first scraping them up with a putty knife, then sanding the back side with 80 grit sand paper to get all of the cork/caulk off the bottom. Any caulk remaining between the ties I removed with an #11 blade. I was careful and was able to salvage 100% of turnouts and 99% of the rail from the previous layout. I used some of them to handlay a sectional layout in my garage for testing of the homasote roadbed on modules concept.
All this work could have been avoided by using less caulk.
Next layout I am using Mico Engineering small or micro spikes and yellow glue to attach the ties and homasote roadbed to the subroadbed.
I intend to try little dabs of caulk, every couple or 3 inches or so on the next track I lay. It is not hard at all to lay the caulk on too thick.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy I intend to try little dabs of caulk, every couple or 3 inches or so on the next track I lay. It is not hard at all to lay the caulk on too thick.
"dabs" of caulk is a really bad idea.
A few more thoughts on caulk.
Many caulk users have said they use regular latex caulk, like you caulk trim with before you paint. They say it works fine, and maybe it does.
I cannot comment on using that kind of caulk.
I use adheasive caulk, commonly used in construction to seal solid surface countertop and shower seams, attach solid surface materials to cabinets and walls, etc.
This is my prefered product:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/17/40/pss_seal_ap/overview/Loctite-Polyseamseal-All-Purpose-Adhesive-Caulk.htm
It is applied to the roadbed in a small bead, then spread with a plastic putty knife to a very thin film to cover the complete top of the roadbed surface, in my case homasote. It is much thicker in consistancy than "regular" caulk, and in this application a little goes a long way.
It is a very strong WATER PROOF adheasive and the goal in this case is for it to not squish up between the ties, atleast not very much.
But it has a long enough working time, similar to any caulk, to allow adjustments to be made.
Regular caulk is not adheasive, peronally I would not use it as such.
In my work I use this PolySeamSeal product all time, it is one of our prefered products for caulking tubs, showers, countertops, etc.
Good luck to all with your track laying, mine has been trouble free for 20 years, and buying some new track for the new version of the layout is just not a big deal.
I have salvaged rail from glued down track. I wonder if Atlas will sell me some tie strips?
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have salvaged rail from glued down track. I wonder if Atlas will sell me some tie strips?
Midwest products sells ties, 20 to a stick, $.29 each stick (can be found for less). Some sanding and spikes required.
BMMECNYC ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have salvaged rail from glued down track. I wonder if Atlas will sell me some tie strips? Midwest products sells ties, 20 to a stick, $.29 each stick (can be found for less). Some sanding and spikes required.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have salvaged rail from glued down track. I wonder if Atlas will sell me some tie strips?
I hand layed plenty of track years ago, not really interested in that now. I'll just buy another case of Atlas flex.
When I did hand lay track, Campbell profile ties were my choice, still have some on hand.
Well, I'm going to test use latex masonry paint, which is thicker than regular house paint but can still be brushed on. Easier than trying to spread caulk evenly with a knife or credit card.
I once spilled a bunch of regular latex paint from a pint can all over loose track on roadbed. I cleaned it up best I could while leaving it in place because I didnt want to take it up and realign everything. After it dried, it was the most secure section of track on the layout. Could hardly budge it when I tried to salvage it.
I'm thinking a $20 gallon of masonry paint colored weathered tie-brown might do the whole layout and provide a nice backdrop for ballasting, but I'll see if I can get a sample to test first. Might even paint the rails while I'm at it.
Rich,
I shared your concern about the relative permanence of cauked track. Therefore, I spiked my Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 flex on Homabed and Homasote. There are pre-drilled spike holes on either side of each rail every 12th tie (not every 6th on mine-have never seen every 6th); that is about every 3-1/16th inches. Initially, I spiked only one rail, alternating rails. That actually worked well, but to be "safe," I eventually spiked both rails. I used the Xuron spiking tool, a straight edge and Ribbonrail alignment gauges, both straight and curved. No wiggles (I have yet to ballast), no regrets, after 5-1/2 years; also, those spikes are almost undistinguishable from the plastic "spikes" on each tie. Try a test length--you might like it!
Dante