I posted on here a little while ago about wanting to start a new layout. I have one or two basement issues that need addressed anyway. My basement has some awkward pillars that i need to work around, so i came up with a benchwork plan first.
I have measured my basement and collumn locations and i know this much, I am going to build an 11' x 10' L shaped switching layout. It will have have a hidden yard approximately 65" long on the longest track. One leg of the L will be 24" deep and the other 30". That much i know.
I despise track planning, frankly i know i am no good at it. I have read the Realistic Track Planning book. I have been looking at switching track plans looking for something that fits my space, that helps some. I know i dont want a switching nighmare but i do want it interesting enough. I know i need a run around track big enough for the longest train i plan to run (3 - 4 cars hopefully).
So is it ok to worry about track planning after the benchwork is completed? perhaps then i can visualize it all better. But i know i don't want to start blindly nailing down track, i have made that mistake in the past.
I appreciate any guidance.
Sure...just lay it all out with stick pins or track nails to hold things in place temporarily, and play with that arrangement for a few days to see how it goes. You could even temporarily power it and try the switching routines. If all your possible/likely shoves and trailing moves work smoothly, I'd begin to make it permanent and have fun.
basementdwellerSo is it ok to worry about track planning after the benchwork is completed? perhaps then i can visualize it all better.
Simple answer: YES!
I believe that one of our premiere modellers, i.e. doctorwayne, did exactly that and it worked out just fine. Hopefully he will chime in to the discussion.
I would suggest that you do a little bit of track planning if you want things like reverse loops so you can have continuous running. They require space, i.e. you can't install a 24" radius loop on a 48" wide section of benchwork.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave, I built my benchwork without having a trackplan, and based it mostly on the aisle-width which I thought would be appropriate. I then cut two sheets of 3/4" plywood into curves (30" minimum, and in 2" progressions up to 38", I think, so very little waste in a sheet). I then placed the cut-out curves at all 10 corners of the room, jockeying them around in placement and position until they seemed to be where I wanted them. I then connected the curves with straight-ish track, adding passing sidings where each town would be, and industrial spurs whereever there was room. As mentioned, no drawing, but a vision in my head about how it should look.I spent way more time trying to figure out where to put the grades so that I could later add a partial second level, and not exceed 2.5%...if I had tried to do that based on a drawing, I'd likely still be looking at the drawing. While the layout has a few sorta "finished" areas which look pretty much as I had envisioned them, I spend too much time working on locomotives and rolling stock for both myself and others to make much progress on the layout. When it does happen, I can usually accomplish a lot, though.
The layout, with the partial second level in place, is point-to-point-to-point, and I then added another point, in another room, representing an interchange with another railroad. All of the points mentioned are staging tracks/yards, and all represent interchanges. Operation is a one-man affair, with one train running at a time, and most trains switching the industries in the towns through which they pass. Because of the many curves and grades, many trains are doubleheaded. The timeframe is late '30s, and mostly all steam, with DC operation.
For anyone really bored, or wanting to be really bored, there's a layout room tour, with lots of pictures, HERE.
I'm probably not the best example to cite with regards to planning, Dave, but I do appreciate your kind words.
Wayne
doctorwayne For anyone really bored, or wanting to be really bored, there's a layout room tour, with lots of pictures, HERE.
Is the layout room a basement or simply a room in your home, or something else?
Is it a single room or more than one room?
Can you provide the length and width of the room(s)?
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks for the replies and reassurance to move forward. I have spent a lot of time planning the bench work to best fit my space, and around the obstacles I have.
A big move out of my comfort zone will be eliminating continuious running and making it switching only. But why not try something different.
Thanks again.
Well that sure is an interesting way to do a layout plan, Wayne. That's pretty much exactly what I do, except in CAD insteadof cutting big curve sections out of wood and trying to place them around the room.
I'm pretty firmly in the "track plan first" camp, because the plan will have a huge influence on the shape of the benchwork, unless you don;t m,ind it all being simple squares and rectangles. The huge exception would be if you are partiocipating in a modular group, or working along the lines of Dave barroow's Domino system. Since the size of each benchwork section is specified by the modular standards, there's no reason at all to not just go ahead and make the module and then figure out what you want to put on it.
On the other hand - if you've looked at dozens of plans to fit your space and nothing has stood out as 'neat' or "I'd like to have that", you should probably consider that whatever you build now will be rebuilt or changed many times over and not shoot for the 'ultimate' layout. Once you have some more experience and get something running, you'll better develop your preferences and be able to come up with a plan, or adapt parts of existing plans, to best suit what it is you like best.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Being a civil engineer, planning for anything of this nature is in my blood. While it is obvious that there are some folks, like doctorwayne, who did an impressive layout without planning, before you build the bench work I would suggest that you consider two issues. The first is reach, will you be able to reach into the far corner of the L and the far edge of the layout shelf without straining anything. The second is minimum track radius, coming around that turn will you be able to lay whatever radius you have in mind. Also are you modeling in HO or N which would influence the track radius issue. Otherwise, go for it.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I also am a no plan/track plan user.
I built the basic bench work,lay down a chunck of foam and started laying track. Mark out the curves,turnouts where you ''think'' you want them,fill in the rest.
The trick is to not nail/glue anything till your happy,and even then your free to change your mind.
I started with the ''time saver'',wouldn't fit,changed it, went around the corner,had a point to point, decided on some continuous runing.
When I got done,my trains stayed the tracks,responded to comands,I could run laps, switch the industres, or both the same time. ''I'' liked it,who else matters.
I blieve some folks get so wraped up and burnt out trying to come up with the perfect plan, they give up on the hobby. If its not fun, your doing it wrong.
BTW, to who dose it need to be ''acceptable'' to?
I suppose this is a question of which comes first: the benchwork or the track plan. I started with the benchwork because I wanted a kind of museum layout with comfortable aisles made as wide as practicable to accommodate several operators and spectators. And I made the decks wide as well to allow some flexibility in trackage. But, make no mistake, a lot of my tracks are straight and parallel and I don't apologize for it. In fact, that's what I was going for. My architect buddies would say that I'm confined by rectilinear thinking, but what do they know? They're architects; they wear green plaid pants and don't see anything wrong with that.
There are layout planners (some very good ones on this forum) who always start with the track plan and then conceive elaborate benchwork to accomodate it and believe that to do otherwise would would be blasphemous. I don't know about their pants situation, but I don't see anything wrong with what the OP is doing.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
My room was 15' x 24'. I had a large opening to the room, three doors, a large window and a fireplace to deal with. I could not come up with a track plan that didn't end up grinding to a halt due to the "geography" of the room. I finally filled the room with benchwork (on paper) and then tweaked it so my curve minimums were met and then exceeded.
At that point, much like the early explorers, I had choices as to the route my railroad would take as it wandered over the terrain I had offered it. It worked out really well.
So in short, sure draw up the bench work first and see where that leads.
Watch "Batmans Layout" in the link below to see the obstacles I dealt with, it might help give you some ideas.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
My benchwork came first because I was following the advice of David Barrow in his various benchwork "domino" articles in MR and MRP. That is, I built up a number of benchwork dominos to a common standard height and size, each 2'x4' using 1/2" plywood tops, and framed with 1"x4" pine. Legs are 2"x2" pine with T nuts and carriage bolts on the bottoms so height can be adjusted.
I built enough of them so that I could move them around the room like big game pieces (well, yeah, dominos) and get a genuine physical sense of what I could reasonably manage and fit into the space.
I then did additional planning by using graph paper with one inch squares to thoroughly draw my basement room, including support columns, windows, outlets, etc.; and made a large number of 2"x4" cardstock domino pieces to represent the benchwork dominos. I could move them around freely until I figured out how to optimize my space -- drew that on other graph paper with one inch squares but marked to 1/4". Then started doodling some general ideas - when they jelled I then used a plastic track planning template (perhaps no longer available?) marked for 1" = 1' with various #s of turnouts and crossings and curve radius.
So in a very literal sense some of the physical benchwork came first, but following that I started serious track planning with a scaled drawing of the room and of the benchwork and then just had to think of ways to make what I wanted fit. I think it is a reasonable and disciplined approach and it certainly has worked for David Barrow. It does push you towards a linear, point to point approach, but that is what I wanted anyway.
By the way I was attracted to Barrow's idea because at the time my car, a sedan, could not haul large sheets of plywood but could handle the 2x4 "handi-panels" of plywood (and homasote) that the local home supply store was selling. I could haul lengths of 1x4 lumber because the back seat folded down.
Dave Nelson
Most important point: Do what you like – it’s a hobby.
Just my personal opinion, but building benchwork first and waiting to do track planning is just delaying the inevitable. Unless you have a fairly large space, track-planning decisions impact the benchwork. Being locked-in to benchwork before track planning reduces options and eliminates the chance to streamline benchwork to improve access and/or reduce the amount of layout surface that must be scenicked/finished.
Note that if the “L” is against two walls, the combination of 24” and 30” at the corner may put part of it out of easy reach.
With planning ahead, a layout that size could easily support longer trains than you are describing through the creative overlap of elements such as runarounds, leads, and industry tracks.
Good luck with your layout.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
richhotrain....I have to ask you for some dimensional data on your layout. You say that the room size is approximately 560 sq. ft. but I don't find anymore detailed information than that square footage. Is the layout room a basement or simply a room in your home, or something else? Is it a single room or more than one room? Can you provide the length and width of the room(s)?
The layout room is a separate room in the basement, and with the addition of the partial second level, I added a couple of staging tracks, representing an interchange with the CNR of a friend's layout, which extend into my workshop (roughly, on the other side of the wall where the Maitland River is shown).
The original "plan" was for the layout to occupy the entire 1200sq. ft. basement, but before the hole for it was dug, my wife decided that she wanted the laundry room in the basement, rather than on the ground floor or, as was in-vogue at the time, on the second floor. I also realised that I needed a shop area (for model work), and those changes lopped-off about a quarter of the available space.I began to build the support benchwork (mostly 2"x4"s mysteriously left over after I had constructed the house), and the sections of open grid layout (1"x4" select pine), but not far into that stage, it was decided that our kids needed a room where they could entertain their friends. I moved what had been completed of the layout by that time into what was going to be left as actual layout room, and channeled my construction activities into creating that room for the kids. They're long moved out, and the room is now my "computer room".
I suppose that I could simply reclaim it, but if I were to have unlimited money, time, and ambition, the only changes I'd make to the existing layout would be to add about 20' or 30' of track between the currently too-close-together towns. I like the track arrangement, so the longer mainline would simply space things out a bit and allow me to decrease all those 2.5% grades.
As you can see in the link, the odd shape of the room which resulted from all the pillaging of space isn't dimensioned simply due to the limited capabilities of the guy using "Paint" to create the diagram, and that's why the layout of the track isn't shown, either.If I had free time, I'd perhaps draw it out on paper, and then scan it, but I suspect that the layout will be gone before I get around to that.
I really appreciate all the replies. I will try to answer one or two of the questions asked.
Scale is HO.
My current layout is 36" tall, a bit low but the kids were much younger back then, all grown now. So at 36" tall reach is ok for 30" but I may raise the layout slightly, BUT my basement is old and has low floor joists so it could easily get too tall for the space.
My L shaped layout will not be against the basement walls, this will allow access for house mechanical needs etc. another problem with current layout in my quest for as much space as possible.
Acceptable to who? Me I suppose but I fully agree with doing as much planning as possible. Track planning on paper creates a real road block for me.
I intentionally did the bench work plan first, because I have several columns in my basement that really interfere with the enjoyment of my current layout. I was determined to incorporate the columns into the backdrop and the plan for my bench work does that. I have also addressed hidden stagin whitch I currently don't have, but want.
I appreciate the comment about size of curve between the legs of the L and will be sure to give this plenty of thought before finalizing the bench work.
I will continue to look at track plans.
Thanks everyone.
LION makes plans as him goes. Him knows the principal givens and starts there.
Him has pulled out what him liked not, him pulled out what worked not and eventually came up with a fine layout that pleases him.
Now if him can only climb three flights of stairs to the train room.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I built my layout in 4 phases, with a lot of planning for each. I used track planning software for the first two, and just winged it for the other two because they were much simpler.
I think all the planning payed off. In particular, all my curves ended up fitting once I put down track, and I was able to get all the turnouts in place without having to say, "No, that's not going to fit," and go back to my LHS to get different turnouts. Once I started laying track, I made cardstock mock-ups of buildings in 3D to get the sight lines and roads in place properly where space was tight.
I like to build something once and only once, not rip it out because it doesn't really fit.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I guess I'm the few exceptions here. I would never think of building the benchwork first without a plan. But then again, I'm an architect :)
When built my layout (1984?) I used AutoCAD. I copped a plan from Linn Westcott's 101 Track Plans (#74), a 15' 6"x 6' two lap oval. But I wanted a two track mainline and avoid the crossover interlock so I could run longer trains.
After transferring it to AutoCAD I was able to easily stretch it out to 18'x6', add the second mainline (offset command), and get a complete over/under double loop out of it (2 aprox 100' mainlines).
The best part is I drew the whole thing out on my large format Calcomp 1043 plotter on 4'x3' sheets, placed the sheets on the sub-roadbed plywood/homosote and started cutting everything out. The remaining drawing on the sub-roadbed was used to layout the roadbed right on top of it. The whole thing was up & running in a few days.
But, as always, do what you need to do to get the job done the way YOU want.
There's all kinds of track planning. It isn't just lines on paper.
Some folks will mark their floors with masking tape outlines of where they want their benchwork to go, then start laying pieces of track down to see how everything will fit. If you don't want to buy track, places like the Peco website have free, printable turnout templates you can download - much cheaper than the real thing!
Throw in some shoe boxes to get an idea of the space structures will take up. Stack up moving boxes to see how your aisles will feel.
It's all planning until you start doing things that become difficult to undo, even then, it really isn't that difficult to make changes, and some people work better that way, even professionals. When I was in architecture school in the mid-'80s, design-build was the reigning buzzword. You just needed the ideal client who would keep spending money until everyone got what they liked.
But don't toss that Armstrong track planning book. It has all that hard-won information about what works and what doesn't, and saves much of the "tear it out and start over" part of the program.
Eric
Another thing to remember when offering advice on how people should go about their track/benchwork planning, is the ability one has to plan and keep details in their head. I can plan things out in my head and execute them, while some friends and family can't find the kitchen without a map. There are many tools to assist in reaching an end result, we don't all need them all. If you have a talent for things, don't be told otherwise.
If it's a switching layout as you suggest, it will be basically a back n forth type operation, just try and keep the bench top at a width you can easily reach across.
But if you plan on any continuous running, you'll need a radius / balloon track at each end, and for that you should have some idea of what your going to do, even if it's not a specific plan.
The top can hang over the structual part of your bench work, as needed, for extra space.
Above all, do what you want. The layout planning police will never stop by and issue charges.
It's yours!
Mike.
My You Tube
If you already have the bench work in place, then that somewhat arbitrates the space available. Since you've stated that you don't like to plan, then I'd say just start laying out track, or take a soft lead pencil like a carpenter's pencil and a ruler and compass, and layout the track ideas in the space to see what you like and what looks good to you.
You mentioned that you want a switching layout, will your industries have a "work flow" for lack of a better word? Will you want locomotive facilities? If so, where will they be located in relation to everything else?
If you find you do need to plan, there are several track planning softwares available. One is SCARM. There are others. Some are freeware, some have a price. One person mentioned AutoCAD. AutoCAD is a great tool and the standard of the Architecture/Engineering/Design industries, but is also priced over $1500/yr. AutoCAD LT is a 2D tool at just under $400/yr. You probably have a friend who has a track planning software, maybe they'll design a plan for you and you can tweak it to suit you.
Anyway it works for you will be good, and you can have a lot of fun doing it.
Hope this helps.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
basementdweller I posted on here a little while ago about wanting to start a new layout. I have one or two basement issues that need addressed anyway. My basement has some awkward pillars that i need to work around, so i came up with a benchwork plan first. I have measured my basement and collumn locations and i know this much, I am going to build an 11' x 10' L shaped switching layout. It will have have a hidden yard approximately 65" long on the longest track. One leg of the L will be 24" deep and the other 30". That much i know. I despise track planning, frankly i know i am no good at it. I have read the Realistic Track Planning book. I have been looking at switching track plans looking for something that fits my space, that helps some. I know i dont want a switching nighmare but i do want it interesting enough. I know i need a run around track big enough for the longest train i plan to run (3 - 4 cars hopefully). So is it ok to worry about track planning after the benchwork is completed? perhaps then i can visualize it all better. But i know i don't want to start blindly nailing down track, i have made that mistake in the past. I appreciate any guidance.
Yes. Your layout space doesn't require a lot of planning. I don't see much point to hold off building the benchwork when you have so many factors that dictate the shape already.
Mike is correct, adding turnback blobs would impact your design alot, mainly because of reach issues, so having some sort of plan about how they would fit is important.
If the vision-thing is a problem, start with a published switching layout plan and lay that out on the benchwork, then adjust the tracks to fit how you like.
Lance Mindheim's East Rail layout is a switching layout about the same size as your space. Add a runaround somewhere and try to lay that out. Maybe you'll find space for a staging leg.
Edit: A quick google search yielded some ideas.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lance+mindheim+east+rail&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir1_LS6-LYAhWO61MKHYuyBqYQsAQIMg&biw=1366&bih=662#imgdii=rqpCoU4pZijFCM:&imgrc=xTIpNE_VIE6CnM:
- Douglas
If you are a subscriber to the magazine, there is also a huge selection of track plans available to you, that you can download as a PDF file. In the black bar on the top of this page, hover your mouse over "How To", and click on track plan database. You can select the room size, (square footage) and type of layout your thinking about.
As a subscriber, I keep forgetting all that goes with it!
OOPS, NOT trying to promote subscription. Just saying.
Thanks for the link Douglass, some switching plans have got my attention.
I have been planning so to speak, measuring cars and locomotives to make sure run round tracks and lead tracks are long enough and will fit where I am thinking I want them. I also measured the footprint of the industrial buildings and background buildings to make sure all will fit.
My current layout is still up and running and I don't intend to tear it out until I am ready to start on some other issues concerning my basement. Once those are addressed in the spring then I will get moving on the new layout.
Thank you everyone for all the comments and suggestions.
Other things to ponder are whether to salvage all of my code 100 Peco turnouts or switch to a lighter gauge which would look better for sidings etc. hmmm.
I am another no planner. I knew I wanted a double main with two cross overs and a reversing loop. Trains could go from main to main and reverse direction as well. Wherever possible I added spurs for industries, etc. So I laid the track "on the go".
I modeled a pair of local industries that had a unique relationship and are located side by side. One was Miller Milling Co and the other is New World Pasta. Miller grinds the flour and literally pipes it to New World Pasta as well as shipping flour to others.
There is no one right or wrong way if you have an imagination of what you want.
Just My Worth
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
I draw up plans first. But as I do the benchwork I make changes and rearrange sections (I built my benchwork in sections with each section free standing) as I see how it all actually looks. After the benchwork is in place, I put track pieces on it to again see how it all looks and rearrange them as needed. Frequently, I will hook the track together and temporarily wire it with alligator clips to run a locomotive with a couple of cars. When everything looks good, then I actually install roadbed, track, and wiring.
I find this back and forth process works well for me. But I have to have some kind of plan to start with. If nothing else to make sure everything I want gets included.
Paul
Reading through all the replies it is interesting how we all go about building a model railroad. We all have the same goal. At the end of the day it is all planning. I was doodling a track plan last night, and looking online for inspiration. A light bulb went off as I now can describe my road block, drawing lines and placing industries is not so much the issue, it is being realistic as to how much length a turnout takes up.
I had more turnouts in a length of track there was of actual track length.
basementdweller Other things to ponder are whether to salvage all of my code 100 Peco turnouts or switch to a lighter gauge which would look better for sidings etc. hmmm.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
To The Op,
If you haven't read this thread , please do. If will show the importance laying your trck properly. I also learned the hard way.
Track Improvements....Two Ways to Look At It
I tried to post the link without sucess.
Good luck with your railroading experience.