ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail I wonder if there are a number of different grades (qualities) of this stuff. Then I have to wonder about the glues that were used to put it down. I have it in the bathroom and the kitchen of a trailer home I purchased here in Florida 3 years ago, and I figure it was placed in there at least 3 years before I bought it,...so thats 6 years plus.I had occassion last year to roll up a whole section of it over in the corner of the kitchen to put in a heavier piece of plywood to support a bigger double door refrig. I glued it back down with only double-back adhesive tape in case something would go wrong with my repair. It has NOT even curled up on that repair. Perhaps it had laid flat long enough not to curl up as if it might have if installed from a fresh roll?? Sure there are different qualities, still not my choice for anything. How did you install a thicker subfloor and keep the floor level? Did you notch out the floor joists? I should just be quiet now, my professional bias will start showing even more..... Sheldon
railandsail I wonder if there are a number of different grades (qualities) of this stuff. Then I have to wonder about the glues that were used to put it down. I have it in the bathroom and the kitchen of a trailer home I purchased here in Florida 3 years ago, and I figure it was placed in there at least 3 years before I bought it,...so thats 6 years plus.I had occassion last year to roll up a whole section of it over in the corner of the kitchen to put in a heavier piece of plywood to support a bigger double door refrig. I glued it back down with only double-back adhesive tape in case something would go wrong with my repair. It has NOT even curled up on that repair. Perhaps it had laid flat long enough not to curl up as if it might have if installed from a fresh roll??
I wonder if there are a number of different grades (qualities) of this stuff.
Then I have to wonder about the glues that were used to put it down. I have it in the bathroom and the kitchen of a trailer home I purchased here in Florida 3 years ago, and I figure it was placed in there at least 3 years before I bought it,...so thats 6 years plus.I had occassion last year to roll up a whole section of it over in the corner of the kitchen to put in a heavier piece of plywood to support a bigger double door refrig. I glued it back down with only double-back adhesive tape in case something would go wrong with my repair. It has NOT even curled up on that repair. Perhaps it had laid flat long enough not to curl up as if it might have if installed from a fresh roll??
Sure there are different qualities, still not my choice for anything.
How did you install a thicker subfloor and keep the floor level? Did you notch out the floor joists?
I should just be quiet now, my professional bias will start showing even more.....
Sheldon
I am trying to picture that in my mind.
Rich
Alton Junction
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
That stuff took about 5 years to start curling on the edges in my mom's house, when used for the intended purpose, as flooring in her kitchen. First the ends of each section started curling up, like it wanted to roll back up on the roll it came from, then the edges going the other way started to curl up along seams. I can only imagine how curly it would get if you tried to slice off HO roadbed wide strips of it. YMMV, but while it's cheap, I suspect the problems after a couple of years will make it more expensive than other common options.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
railandsail ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl?? 1) As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp. 2) It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives. 3) Ballast glue is not going to stick well. 4) What would be the point? Sheldon I've got some sample pieces so I might do a little experimenting. I numbered your observations in your posting so I could ask a question of each:1) By curling and warping are you referring to its potential to try and curl some when cut into strips? And by warping are you saying it will distort in size? I don't think it will distort in size to any appreciable extent (contract or expand with temp and humidity). At least it does not seem to do so on some of my floors. or I certainly would have noticed it over the past 3 years. It may well try to curl up a little when cut into relatively thin strips (I have not experiemented with this yet), but that should not be a real problem once you are gluing it down on the plywood subroadbed.2) I would hope not be using nails to attach the either the vinyl roadbed , nor the track, (certainly not with all the modern and variety of adhesives). I can't imagine there are not a variety of other adhesives that will glue this vinyl down. It's NOT as if its polyethylene plastic which is very difficult to bond to. 3) Ballast glue....I assume we are talking water soluble wood glues that are mostly used for this purpose?? I'm just not sure in this case as to whether they would bond resonable well to the vinyl roadbed, ...but what if they did not,...then the ballast might well bond together as a 'clump' unto itself and the track ties, and not be required to bond to the vinyl ??4) The point would be that vinyl flooring material could be had at a pretty reasonable price (particularly if off some installation jobsites,..many in FL), and it just might be a very durable roadbed in the long run. I experienced old cork.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL railandsail Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl?? 1) As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp. 2) It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives. 3) Ballast glue is not going to stick well. 4) What would be the point? Sheldon
railandsail Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl??
Sheet Vinyl FlooringI was cleaning out/reorganizing one of my outdoor sheds yesterday, and I ran across some sample pieces of vinyl sheet flooring that had been installed in a house next to me. It has an really good feel to it, and comes in a variety of thicknesses, including a 1/16" ans 1/8" which I happen to have.It got me to thinking,...how about roadbed cut from strips of this vinyl??
1) As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp.
2) It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives.
3) Ballast glue is not going to stick well.
4) What would be the point?
I've got some sample pieces so I might do a little experimenting. I numbered your observations in your posting so I could ask a question of each:1) By curling and warping are you referring to its potential to try and curl some when cut into strips? And by warping are you saying it will distort in size?
I don't think it will distort in size to any appreciable extent (contract or expand with temp and humidity). At least it does not seem to do so on some of my floors. or I certainly would have noticed it over the past 3 years. It may well try to curl up a little when cut into relatively thin strips (I have not experiemented with this yet), but that should not be a real problem once you are gluing it down on the plywood subroadbed.2) I would hope not be using nails to attach the either the vinyl roadbed , nor the track, (certainly not with all the modern and variety of adhesives). I can't imagine there are not a variety of other adhesives that will glue this vinyl down. It's NOT as if its polyethylene plastic which is very difficult to bond to.
3) Ballast glue....I assume we are talking water soluble wood glues that are mostly used for this purpose?? I'm just not sure in this case as to whether they would bond resonable well to the vinyl roadbed, ...but what if they did not,...then the ballast might well bond together as a 'clump' unto itself and the track ties, and not be required to bond to the vinyl ??4) The point would be that vinyl flooring material could be had at a pretty reasonable price (particularly if off some installation jobsites,..many in FL), and it just might be a very durable roadbed in the long run. I experienced old cork.
Well, have fun.
As a construction professional I would not have it my own home let alone try to use it for model roadbed.
Let us know how it works out.
And another note on why clear, if you can't see the centerline, then you proubly put it on too thick, if yolu see it too well, then it could be too thin, the stuff really gides you to use the proper amount.
BMMECNYC ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it? Ive found that it spreads prety easily with a 2" putty knife, and I use a laggers (pipe coverer is I guess the technical name for the trades person) knife to clean the left over liquid nails off the putty knife once it sets up. I also prefer the liquid nails, as its a pretty universal adheasive and has about a 20min working time. It is flexible enough to withstand temperature changes (modules go from around 20 degrees to about 70 degrees in a couple of hours in the building at the Amherst show, then up to about 80). Last day it goes from 80 to about 20 in a few short minutes. Humidity goes from very dry to slightly less dry back to very dry. Foam has yet to detach from the modules. Other adhesives have detached from the foam when the plywood moved (yes it moves).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it?
Ive found that it spreads prety easily with a 2" putty knife, and I use a laggers (pipe coverer is I guess the technical name for the trades person) knife to clean the left over liquid nails off the putty knife once it sets up.
I also prefer the liquid nails, as its a pretty universal adheasive and has about a 20min working time. It is flexible enough to withstand temperature changes (modules go from around 20 degrees to about 70 degrees in a couple of hours in the building at the Amherst show, then up to about 80). Last day it goes from 80 to about 20 in a few short minutes. Humidity goes from very dry to slightly less dry back to very dry. Foam has yet to detach from the modules. Other adhesives have detached from the foam when the plywood moved (yes it moves).
The clear comes out white, it only dries clear (otherwise I guess how would you see what you are doing if using it for the normal purpose?). But I spread it so thing, you can easily see a pencil line through it. Doesn;t have to be any thicker and as I said, I've never had any problem with the track letting go because the caulk didn;t stick it well enough.
Sheldon - my compressor puts out enough to handle that nailer - it just can;t drive the bigger framing type air nailers. If I start doing moore of my own work on my cars again though I will need a larger compressor anyway to run decent size air tools. The one I have is great for low volume tools, inflating tires, and blowing dirt and dust off things. If I go that route though I will probably get a significantly larger compressor and run some air lines in my garage. I also have a nice airbrush compressor for airbrushing, which I have yet to actually hook up and use.
rrinkerActually, I plan to use grey caulk this time, since my ballast color is grey.
I used grey last time and wished I'd used clear since anything opaque hides the track center line.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
BMMECNYCI also prefer the liquid nails, as its a pretty universal adheasive and has about a 20min working time. It is flexible enough to withstand temperature changes
.
I have had nothing but positive results with liquid nails.
For layout construction, the only adhesives I use are hot glue and liquid nails.
I also use a ton of decking screws!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
rrinker That's another tool I need to get, a small air nailer (or a bigger compressor, mine can only handle a small one, which actually should be plenty, it doesn;t take much to nail down the homasote). Actually, I plan to use grey caulk this time, since my ballast color is grey. I doon't know why I didn;t think of that before. The clear caulk is fine, you see nothing once it's dry. Grey would blend in and any slight gap in the ballast would be less noticeable - of course I also plan to paint the roadbed grey once it's down, before track goes on. --Randy
That's another tool I need to get, a small air nailer (or a bigger compressor, mine can only handle a small one, which actually should be plenty, it doesn;t take much to nail down the homasote).
Actually, I plan to use grey caulk this time, since my ballast color is grey. I doon't know why I didn;t think of that before. The clear caulk is fine, you see nothing once it's dry. Grey would blend in and any slight gap in the ballast would be less noticeable - of course I also plan to paint the roadbed grey once it's down, before track goes on.
Randy, a pancake compressor and a brad nailer can be had for under $200 at Lowes or Home depot, well worth the investment - of course in my business I have several of each.....and a shop air compressor right below the train room.
This is one of the best ones in my view:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-18-Gauge-Pneumatic-Brad-Nailer-DWFP12233/205647692
And we frame whole houses with one of these:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Porter-Cable-6-Gal-150-PSI-Portable-Air-Compressor-C2002/203162815
Well, as stated before, I don't use foam as a layout surface, I don't transport modules to shows, and my trains are in a finished, heated, cooled dedicated space.
Never had any issues with clear PolySeamSeal adhesive caulk......but would never use just plain old "caulk", caulk is not glue.....but that's just me.
I use those little plastic 2" desposable putty knives for spreading the PolySeamSeal. If I wipe it in time I use them several times, if not, no worries.
By the way, kudos to all of you who promote the hobby with modular layouts, shows, etc, but it is just not my thing - at all.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it?
railandsail doctorwayne Wayne Did you glue your track down with water soluble glue as well? If so, how did you keep the track in place once you started to ballast it??
doctorwayne
Did you glue your track down with water soluble glue as well?
If so, how did you keep the track in place once you started to ballast it??
BMMECNYC ATLANTIC CENTRAL What would be the point? Probably "free" was the main point. As far as adhesive caulk goes, Liquid Nails heavy duty construction adhesive (http://www.liquidnails.com/products/construction-adhesive-LN903) is what I have always used for cork and flextrack. It works, plain and simple. It comes off of track after some effort. I was able to salvage 100% of my turnouts from old layout. The cork really wasnt salvagable. Nearly 100% of the rail pieces are salvagable for handlaying. 95% of the flex track could be re-used, with some effort expended to remove the attached liquid nails and cork. Tightbond 2 (http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2) is what I use for both homabed and wood ties. Im gluing 3 wood or wood based products together: plywood, homasote and ties. Why not use a wood glue that is specifically designed for the application?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What would be the point?
Probably "free" was the main point.
As far as adhesive caulk goes, Liquid Nails heavy duty construction adhesive (http://www.liquidnails.com/products/construction-adhesive-LN903) is what I have always used for cork and flextrack. It works, plain and simple. It comes off of track after some effort. I was able to salvage 100% of my turnouts from old layout. The cork really wasnt salvagable. Nearly 100% of the rail pieces are salvagable for handlaying. 95% of the flex track could be re-used, with some effort expended to remove the attached liquid nails and cork.
Tightbond 2 (http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2) is what I use for both homabed and wood ties. Im gluing 3 wood or wood based products together: plywood, homasote and ties. Why not use a wood glue that is specifically designed for the application?
Again, as a construction professional very familiar with all these products, Liquidnails seems like it would be thick and messy for this job, not to mention it is not clear if it gets where you don't want it?
But if it works for you......
Sure Titebond is what I have always used for wood ties, hand laid my first second layout in 1973 - Titebond, Campbell ties on Homasote.
Interesting side note, as a construction professional, we use very little Liquidnails as products in tubes for caulk guns go - yes, subfloors and drywall - other "glue" needs are better served with a list of other products/brands.
Well obviously everyone should use whatever works for them.
I think I will stay with homasote roadbed (cascade) nailed down with the pneumatic brad nailer, and adheasive caulk for the track.
I have seen/experimented with foam and don't really like it.
I don't glue down turnouts.
I am building this layout in modules so it can be moved, tired of starting over.
rrebellBut once you ballast the track, alot of that reuse goes out the window.
Ooooh... I have never reused anything! Every layout gets all new track.
Of course my biggest loss was when I tore out the "Dream House" layout. That was a disaster because I actually tried to save most of the trackwork for a friend to use on his layout. No ballast was applied yet, but the track nails fit real tight in to the ties, and they ripped the ties loose from the rails as we tried to remove them.
Since then, I have only had smaller layouts, so loss was not much. Certainly not worth the effore to save the pieces.
I've built two layouts now using plain cheap latex caulk as the adhesive for both roadbed to subroadbed and track to roadbed. The first one I used the Polyseamseal brand, because it was like $1 a tube at the time and the DAP brand was like $1.25 (I blame my PA Dutch background). When I built the second one, the DAP brand was now cheaper than the Polyseamseal brand. Go figure. Neither one has any mention of silicone. Nothing ever came up on its own after the caulk set up. Even the areas I ballasted stayed in place while sraying the ballast down with alcohol and then diluted white glue. The last one, I roughly cut the track between sections as I was moving, and even that never knocked any track loose. I did on the first one make changes after I started laying track, and the already stuck down stuff came off just fine and was reused elsewhere - that one had WS foam roadbed and the roadbed didn't come off the extruded foam cleanly, but the track came off the foam roadbed just fine. And, at least for the track to roadbed part, I spread it THIN - before I put the track in place, it looks more or less like a shiny section of roadbed. The track tacks on immediately but can still be slid around for alignment, but once the caulk sets, it's not going anywhere without more force than it would ever see in normal operation. Can;t see why it would release the track upon curing, unless too much time elapsed between spreading the caulk and putting the track down. I didn't do anything to the track other than cutting it to length if needed, otherwise it was regular Atlas Code 83 flex track straight out of the box, I didn't clean it or anything.
I like to try different approaches, after two layouts with a foam base I'm going back to plywood for the next one, but after experimenting with some sections, I plan to use the Cascade Homasote roadbed instead of cork. Still going to caulk the track.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat would be the point?
As a construction professional, I would say it is likely a bad idea. In small strips it will curl and warp. It not friendly to nails, they stretch and distort it. The glue that is used to install it on floors is messy for small areas. It is not friendly to other adhesives. Ballast glue is not going to stick well.
What would be the point?
Their is painters caulk (not even pro painters use this) and silconised latex caulk (of course there are others), the later has all the good qualitys of the painters caulk but remains somewhat flexable when cured. The clear remains more flexable than the white also but I use clear for track to cork as if I get some alittle too thick, you never notice once dried.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do glue down track, with adheasive vinyl caulk, no unlike gluing down ties for hand laid track. Sheldon Sheldon, What are your thoughts on using adhesive vinyl caulk as opposed to latex caulk, which appears to be the predominate type mentioned. I assume the vinyl is solvent based where as typical latex is water based. My understanding of the properties and benefits of various caulks is limited. Latex "painters caulk" had no adheasive properties, it is only intended to fill gaps and adhear well enough for that purpose, not to support weight or resist lateral force. The adheasive caulk I use is desiged as a glue and caulk in one. It is what the best professionals now use in bathrooms/kitchens and is used to install solid surface wall panels in showers, back splashes, etc. It is much thicker/dense, and will resist for example the force of the bend in the rail on a curve. It takes a tack very quickly, make track installation fast and easy. For track laying, I use clear, so it matters not if some little excess get where you don't want it. It is what was used by the first several people to popularize it for laying track. Polyseamseal or Phenoseal brands of adheasive caulk. Sheldon
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do glue down track, with adheasive vinyl caulk, no unlike gluing down ties for hand laid track. Sheldon Sheldon, What are your thoughts on using adhesive vinyl caulk as opposed to latex caulk, which appears to be the predominate type mentioned. I assume the vinyl is solvent based where as typical latex is water based. My understanding of the properties and benefits of various caulks is limited.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I do glue down track, with adheasive vinyl caulk, no unlike gluing down ties for hand laid track. Sheldon
I do glue down track, with adheasive vinyl caulk, no unlike gluing down ties for hand laid track.
Sheldon,
What are your thoughts on using adhesive vinyl caulk as opposed to latex caulk, which appears to be the predominate type mentioned. I assume the vinyl is solvent based where as typical latex is water based.
My understanding of the properties and benefits of various caulks is limited.
Latex "painters caulk" had no adheasive properties, it is only intended to fill gaps and adhear well enough for that purpose, not to support weight or resist lateral force.
The adheasive caulk I use is desiged as a glue and caulk in one. It is what the best professionals now use in bathrooms/kitchens and is used to install solid surface wall panels in showers, back splashes, etc. It is much thicker/dense, and will resist for example the force of the bend in the rail on a curve.
It takes a tack very quickly, make track installation fast and easy. For track laying, I use clear, so it matters not if some little excess get where you don't want it.
It is what was used by the first several people to popularize it for laying track.
Polyseamseal or Phenoseal brands of adheasive caulk.
Thanks. I know at one section of my old layout, I used some sort of cheap latex caulk that didn't hold at all to the cork and WS Foam bed I used. After it dried, it came right up.
I would like a water based latex product to be able to salvage track if I need to, but I think its best to find a brand that has some adhesive properties. I assume with the advancements in latex products these days, somebody makes a decent adhesive latex caulk that would hold well on cork or homasote.
Tacking quickly is also desired.
- Douglas
Well, since I started this question for Rich, I will comment again.
First, for me cork is too soft, even the best of it.
Homasote sheets from the lumber yard are great for yards and such, but I prefer the built up ballast look of roadbed, it suits the era and type of railroading I model.
So I prefer the Homabed type product, which in most ways works just like cork, with all added benefits of homasote.
I do not glue down turnouts. They are held in place mostly by the ajoining tracks and one or two track nails.
I ballast with white glue.
Salvaging turnouts is no problem, I have very seldom even tried to salvage track from a layout, especially one with completed scenery.
The Cascade roadbed makes using Homasote easy and mess free.....the only choice other than wood roadbed like TruScale in my mind.
And all my homasote sits on 1/2 or 3/4 plywood subroadbed.
Note the track contruction under this freight car. Click on my picture and note the track, it is glued down with a very thin film of adheasive caulk, The plywood and the homabed were installed with a pneumatic brad nailer, very fast and very secure once things are laidout.
rrebell Remember too that Homasote is twice as expencive as cork. As for cork crumbling, remember that there were many companys making the stuff. Always used Midwest and never a problem, even in 30 year old stuff that I bought second hand and was stored in an old garage.
Remember too that Homasote is twice as expencive as cork. As for cork crumbling, remember that there were many companys making the stuff. Always used Midwest and never a problem, even in 30 year old stuff that I bought second hand and was stored in an old garage.