Thank you, Dave, for the well wishes. And thank you for the info on the Walthers kit. We picked up a couple used depots that are already built that I think we can bash together to make it 'close enough'. We'll see. We may end up buying one of those kits.
Good luck with your Cass layout! My grandson and I don't have a permanent layout but when he visits we put Bachmann EZ track on the floor and have a great time. We fondly remember our trip to Cass in @2005 where we did the full tourist ride thing. We have Bachmann's Shay #5 with a couple of Bachmann's #17445 Cass open air cars.
For our station, we found Walthers Cornerstone #933-4057 which has almost exactly the same ornate eave trimwork as the prototype. https://www.walthers.com/union-pacific-style-depot-kit-11-3-4-x-5-5-8-x-4-quot-29-8-x-14-2-x-10-1cm
Dave
USAF (Retired)
Just a small update that I shared with someone else today and wanted to share with you all. My wife and I did a little work on our benchwork and tested our Shay's pulling power. The latter was a lot of fun and proved to be interesting. We definitely won't be able to model a scale 11% grade like that at Cass, but we can comfortably get to 6.875%.
We tested with our passenger cars as well as some log cars and 8% was pushing it, so we settled on 6.875%. Why? Well, we were using 2x scraps stacked up to test elevation and we removed one scrap to get to that comfortable incline. Highly scientific isn't it?
We've also been thumbing through the two books about electrical that were suggested. Lots of good info so far, though somewhat overwhelming.
cuyama ...A good older book that is available used through resellers is Andy Sperandeo’s Easy Model Railroad Wiring, Second Edition (Kalmbach, 1999). A more-recent book is Larry Puckett’s Wiring Your Model Railroad (Kalmbach 2015).
...A good older book that is available used through resellers is Andy Sperandeo’s Easy Model Railroad Wiring, Second Edition (Kalmbach, 1999). A more-recent book is Larry Puckett’s Wiring Your Model Railroad (Kalmbach 2015).
I have a copy of each coming, $16 shipped for both. The more the merrier! Thanks for the suggestion, cuyama.
Hopefully they will help clear up a lot of genearl questions so I don't drive you guys nuts.
cuyamaPersonally, I don’t care at all for any Atlas wiring book. Their wiring components are a hindrance, not a help, in my opinion.
+1
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
The typical best practice for DC wiring for multiple trains operating at once would be a bit different than what you have posted. A good book will help you understand how to create blocks that allow for a little more flexible movement of trains and engines.
Personally, I don’t care at all for any Atlas wiring book. Their wiring components are a hindrance, not a help, in my opinion. A good older book that is available used through resellers is Andy Sperandeo’s Easy Model Railroad Wiring, Second Edition (Kalmbach, 1999). A more-recent book is Larry Puckett’s Wiring Your Model Railroad (Kalmbach 2015).
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I'll take a look for that wiring book, thank you. I think we have decided on where we want to isolate each section. Does this make sense and look like the best plan of attack?
The red isolated section is the main line that runs around the layout.
The blue isolated section is for staging.
The green isolated section is the scenic route, runs from depot up to the top of the mountain.
The yellow section is the dislplay, coaling, and maintenance building (dead end).
The area I'm not sure about wiring is the cross over area (circled in orange) where the green and yellow intersect at two turnouts.
bibbster So first comes the where, and then, of course, comes the how. You've been warned.
The how is easy. You cut a gap in one rail and insulate with styrene or use insulating rail joiners. You wire each section as with an on/off switch and/or selector switch for which power pack is controlling it. Atlas has a book on DC layout wiring, I think it is still in print.
The where requires someone who has done a DC layout recently, or uses DC for layout control (Im actually planning on using DC for the logging layout in the bedroom, wife's idea, not mine).
In preparation for actually getting this project underway, I'm trying to determine the best way to wire everything up. We'll be going DC at this time, and at some point, I'd like to have three trains available for simultaneous running; our Shay, a Climax, and a 2-4-4-2.In my head I see the Shay hauling tourists up and down the mountain, the Climax down in the depot area shifting log cars to the mainline and coal for the Shay. The 2-4-4-2 will run the mainline exclusively.We have 12 turnouts that will be operated by Tortoise machines, and of course, some lighting for the depot and some other things.My first layout was N scale and it was a single train with all manual turnouts, so this is a first. We would like to insulate certain areas to allow for operation simultaneously, but I honestly am not sure what makes the most sense. So first comes the where, and then, of course, comes the how. You've been warned.
The Mainline:
The Scenic Route:
Thanks for the info on the pulling power of your wife's Shay. I should have track here in a few days to commence some testing with our passenger/caboose/log/ cars.
I did some testing of my wife's Bachmann 3 truck shay a few years ago. Without any modifications, the shay can push 3 loaded bachmann log cars or 6 emptys up a 2% grade. 3% 2 loads or 4 mty. 4% 1 load or 2 MTY. 5% the locomotive was able to push 1 MTY, no loads. 6% the locomotive could not make the climb itself. I then ran into the issue that the locomotive will slide backwards on a steep slope with no power applied (more so with loads than empty).
Added Bullfrog snot to treads of every other wheel, allowed time to cure. Locomotive performance was greatly increased. 6 empties on 5% grade. After a few tests with Bullfrog snot gears on the sides of the drive wheels disintegrated (this had already happened to my friend's wife's shay, and he did not apply bullfrog snot, so I believe it only accellerated the failure).
I have the NWSL replacement gears, just have not had the time or interest to take up the project. They are not very expensive from what I remember.
Frank, thank you for the link to your thread. It sounds like you both had a great time. The pictures look great! Gotta love some overcast skies for taking photos. Clouds make great sun filters!
Hello bibbster My daughter and I were there last year. We did not get to ride the train. but we were abe to stop and look around and get a few photos. Here is a link to the thread. There are some photos from Cass and one of my layout were my shay works
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/256636/2876679.aspx#2876679
Hope this helps Frank
Hi fellow geared steam guy! Thank you for the warm welcome.
I will definitely test the grades with the various cars and qty's. I'd like to go as steep as possible but don't want to create frustration for the passengers.
I do have my Shay in hand, a Bachmann, and have done some circle track testing/break in. It seems to get along just fine, and I must say, even though my eyes see an HO Shay, my brain sees that little kid some 35 years ago standing in the cab as it goes by. The only thing missing is some 'steam & smoke'.
No DCC at this time.
bibbsterIt would be nice if an HO Shay could handle an 11% grade like that found at Cass, but I'm not gonna push my luck. I want the grade to be as much as the Bachmann Shay can comfortably handle so some testing is in my future. That will all help determine the transitions and such necessary for a smooth track.
Bibbster
Welcome to the forums from another geared steam guy.
Yes, please test before committing, the Bachmann Shay is a tad light, so it can stuggle with "real word" grades, it is possible top add weight, but make sure your are committed to the number and type of cars you plan to push up the hill. Good trucks and metals wheelsets will help greatly.
Not sure if your going to use DCC, but you can always double the hill like Cass sometimes does if you have to add a couple more cars to satisfy ridership demands.
Do you already have a loco? Are the gears okay?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Hi Bill, thank you for the information! I've had my eye on several log cars that are prototypical, but I always get outbid. lol I'll run some down eventually. I don't even have the benchwork built yet so I have time I guess. :)
There is plenty of published information on this line to help with building appropriate structures. The standard C&O station kit has been manufactured by several companies as one bought out the other. My kit for that is Quality Craft Models "Marlinton Station", Kit #104. The contents and plans allow for constructing the station in various lengths to suit different locations. I believe that this same kit has been also produced by one or more other companies.
Recall that Cass regularly operates "photo specials" of antique logging cars and equipment, so there will be plenty of things to fill up all storage tracks and also provide variety to your operations.
Bill
I did a little digging and found a good answer from jrbernier (Jim)...
"Snap-Switches and Customline turnouts are both HO scale. The difference is that the Customline turnouts are built like prototype turnouts(they have a straight angle through the frog area). The Snap-Switch turnouts have a continuous radius curve through the frog area - This can be either 18" radius or 22" radius depending on the item #. They are not very good for use in yards as the track spacing of parallel track will get pretty wide. As you mentioned, they also include either a manual or remote switch machine in the package."
If I go with the turnouts instead of snapswitches, the cost will go up, but it seems, based on this information and your comments, that the frustration factor will go down. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
bibbsterBased on the info from Atlas, the snap switches work with 18" radii, so I'm a little confused as to why they might cause issues if my radii are 18"+?
Because the frogs are sharp -- the diverging curve is not the only consideration. Plus, you'll be shoving cars through them.
Personally, I'd rather not be using the tightest turnouts at the locations that are hardest to reach, but everyone makes their own judgements.
Based on the info from Atlas, the snap switches work with 18" radii, so I'm a little confused as to why they might cause issues if my radii are 18"+?
bibbsterWhich turnout would you suggest?
It depends on the final track plan. Generally, The Atlas Customline #4 (actually a #4½) is a good choice with minimum radii in the 18"-22" range in HO (barring S-curves). These are available with remote switch machines.
bibbsterRegarding reach, there may be some hard to reach spots, but as with when I raced slot cars, a step stool is a handy thing, and being 6'-2" tall with long arms doesn't hurt either.
The slot car tracks I've seen don't have delicate scenery at the aisle edge.
Turnouts far from the layout edge seem to often be the ones needing a little tweaking. Good access is a best practice based on many folks' experience in model railroading.
cuyamaNote that these are SnapSwitch turnouts and are significantly sharper than a #4. Since it appears that you will be shoving the passenger cars through some of the turnouts, that might prove to be too sharp. It’s hard to estimate the grades from what you’ve posted so far, but bear in mind that you will need to allow from transitions from level to grade. Once you’ve done that, the grades may be steeper than you hope. As others have noted, this means that the switchbacks should probably be separated by more track than you show now. Also, the effective grade through tight curves such as 18” radius in HO is much higher than the nominal grade. With short trains, this may not matter, but is something to be aware of. Note that most people find that they can’t reach more than 30” over a scenicked layout without damaging things close to the edge, so particularly if you plan on putting additional scenery at the front edge, parts of the layout may be out of easy reach. Most people also find that keeping tracks 3” or so away from benchwork edges is better as it prevents derailments from bodies pressed against the benchwork and helps keep equipment from being knocked to the floor accidentally. Good luck with your layout. I hope that it will prove to be interesting enough in the long term after the time and money spent on the construction.
It’s hard to estimate the grades from what you’ve posted so far, but bear in mind that you will need to allow from transitions from level to grade. Once you’ve done that, the grades may be steeper than you hope. As others have noted, this means that the switchbacks should probably be separated by more track than you show now. Also, the effective grade through tight curves such as 18” radius in HO is much higher than the nominal grade. With short trains, this may not matter, but is something to be aware of.
Note that most people find that they can’t reach more than 30” over a scenicked layout without damaging things close to the edge, so particularly if you plan on putting additional scenery at the front edge, parts of the layout may be out of easy reach. Most people also find that keeping tracks 3” or so away from benchwork edges is better as it prevents derailments from bodies pressed against the benchwork and helps keep equipment from being knocked to the floor accidentally.
Good luck with your layout. I hope that it will prove to be interesting enough in the long term after the time and money spent on the construction.
Which turnout would you suggest?
It would be nice if an HO Shay could handle an 11% grade like that found at Cass, but I'm not gonna push my luck. I want the grade to be as much as the Bachmann Shay can comfortably handle so some testing is in my future. That will all help determine the transitions and such necessary for a smooth track.
I do plan to have the front of the track away from the edge. I drew my frame at the minimum I'd like so I knew I could easily expand forward. Regarding reach, there may be some hard to reach spots, but as with when I raced slot cars, a step stool is a handy thing, and being 6'-2" tall with long arms doesn't hurt either.
Thanks for the well wishes. The joy for me will be the contruction, after that, operating a couple trains is just a bonus. This is definitely more of a hobby than a passion for me, somewhere between a train running in a circle under the Christmas tree and a basement empire complete with freight timetables.
bibbster#850/#851 remote turnouts
Note that these are SnapSwitch turnouts and are significantly sharper than a #4. Since it appears that you will be shoving the passenger cars through some of the turnouts, that might prove to be too sharp.
access to the tracks in the tunnel is a must. Can be done by an access trap door underneath the layout.
The plan is great.
Thanks so much for the welcome and all the thoughts and suggestions so far. I've taken all of them into consideration and tweaked the layout a bit adding a staging area and spreading out the switchbacks (see below).
All of the curves are 18" radius for those that asked. The ground level of the layout will be approximately 40 - 45" off of the ground. The back area of the layout will be easily accessible (from underneath) as the 'mountain' will be hollow. I am still toying with putting the layout on casters though, but either way, it will be accessible.
I've got my eyes peeled for a good deal on a C&O H-4 or GP-9. While the Shay I have now is not lettered for Cass, but rather Greebrier & Elk, I got a heck of a deal on it so it works for now.
I'll post pics as things progess. I'm not going to rush this so be patient and feel free to continue providing suggestions and thoughts. I'm sure I'll have pleny more questions as things progress.