Hello everyone! I've just finished up a layout design that takes some elements from Cass Scenic RR. I'd like to get any and all input before my wife and I begin to contruct the layout. Below are some images for reference.
I didn't originally plan for a loop, but decided that folks looking at the layout would enjoy seeing a train running round nonstop, plus, the coal has to get delivered somehow! lol
The areas that shows huge 'tunnels' will actually be solid with only enough space for the mainline to pass through.
The table will be up against the wall so only the front half of the layout will be visible.
I'll be running a Bachmann Spectrum 3 truck Shay with two passenger cars and a caboose up the scenic route. I will eventually add an open passenger car as that is what I remember from my childhood (see pic below).
I'm not sure what I'll be running on the mainline but it will include a couple coal cars and probably a few log cars as I plan to allow space at the front of the layout for the Greenbrier River.
The layout, as drawn, uses all Atlas flex track, a couple #4 manual turnouts, and #850/#851 remote turnouts. Are these the best option for running DC? Most cost effective (those turnouts are pricey!)?
I'm sure I've missed something so please ask, suggest, comment on any and everything. I'm looking forward to everyone's input. :)
Me ca. 1981 @ Cass
Here are a few thoughts:
1. The Bachmann 3 truck Shay is based on Cass (West Virginia Pulp & Paper) no. 5, so it's a natural.
2. Access to the tracks by the wall may be difficult. I hope you are providing for that.
3. If you decide to move to the pre-tourist era when the line was operated as a logger, the level oval would represent the C&O. On that line, the standard steam power was usually an H-4 2-6-6-2 (Bachmann, out of production). It seems like a big engine, but it will manage your curves, unless you contemplate something tighter than 18" radius.
4. Kits for C&O stations similar to Cass have been produced, and may still be available.
Tom
I don't think you will find cheaper turnouts than Atlas. I don't have any sense of the dimensions of your layout. What radius are your curves?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
What I recall from our vist, are the Shays,witch you got covered.And the switchbacks, you also have. There was a large white building that had a small layout in it. Looked like it could have been company stores or rooming. And the station witch was mention above. On the top of the hill, there was some really neat old loggin equipment,perhaps a loader? can't recall. Other then that, trees and rocks.
Are you going to model it as it is, or just as a "based on" type layout?
Can't help with track plan as I never used one
Have you considered DCC with sound ?
Like the layout design. Couple suggestions.
Push the main line along the front edge back an inch or two for scenery. Maybe you can have a gentel curve along this area.
Make the length betweent switchback 1 and 2 as long as possible.
Couple staging tracks along the back wall.
Steve
Hey bibbster!
Neat layout plan!
By the way, in case nobody has said it, welcome to the forums!!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi, Bibbster.
That's going to be a nice layout. I have to agree with all the suggestions posted before. They would all make your nice layout even better. Adding the Greenbrier River will be nice.
If you can't find or afford the C&O H-4 a C&O GP-9 would be another good choice for the coal train.
Best of luck with it all and please keep us posted on your progress.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Thanks so much for the welcome and all the thoughts and suggestions so far. I've taken all of them into consideration and tweaked the layout a bit adding a staging area and spreading out the switchbacks (see below).
All of the curves are 18" radius for those that asked. The ground level of the layout will be approximately 40 - 45" off of the ground. The back area of the layout will be easily accessible (from underneath) as the 'mountain' will be hollow. I am still toying with putting the layout on casters though, but either way, it will be accessible.
I've got my eyes peeled for a good deal on a C&O H-4 or GP-9. While the Shay I have now is not lettered for Cass, but rather Greebrier & Elk, I got a heck of a deal on it so it works for now.
I'll post pics as things progess. I'm not going to rush this so be patient and feel free to continue providing suggestions and thoughts. I'm sure I'll have pleny more questions as things progress.
access to the tracks in the tunnel is a must. Can be done by an access trap door underneath the layout.
The plan is great.
bibbster#850/#851 remote turnouts
Note that these are SnapSwitch turnouts and are significantly sharper than a #4. Since it appears that you will be shoving the passenger cars through some of the turnouts, that might prove to be too sharp.
It’s hard to estimate the grades from what you’ve posted so far, but bear in mind that you will need to allow from transitions from level to grade. Once you’ve done that, the grades may be steeper than you hope. As others have noted, this means that the switchbacks should probably be separated by more track than you show now. Also, the effective grade through tight curves such as 18” radius in HO is much higher than the nominal grade. With short trains, this may not matter, but is something to be aware of.
Note that most people find that they can’t reach more than 30” over a scenicked layout without damaging things close to the edge, so particularly if you plan on putting additional scenery at the front edge, parts of the layout may be out of easy reach. Most people also find that keeping tracks 3” or so away from benchwork edges is better as it prevents derailments from bodies pressed against the benchwork and helps keep equipment from being knocked to the floor accidentally.
Good luck with your layout. I hope that it will prove to be interesting enough in the long term after the time and money spent on the construction.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaNote that these are SnapSwitch turnouts and are significantly sharper than a #4. Since it appears that you will be shoving the passenger cars through some of the turnouts, that might prove to be too sharp. It’s hard to estimate the grades from what you’ve posted so far, but bear in mind that you will need to allow from transitions from level to grade. Once you’ve done that, the grades may be steeper than you hope. As others have noted, this means that the switchbacks should probably be separated by more track than you show now. Also, the effective grade through tight curves such as 18” radius in HO is much higher than the nominal grade. With short trains, this may not matter, but is something to be aware of. Note that most people find that they can’t reach more than 30” over a scenicked layout without damaging things close to the edge, so particularly if you plan on putting additional scenery at the front edge, parts of the layout may be out of easy reach. Most people also find that keeping tracks 3” or so away from benchwork edges is better as it prevents derailments from bodies pressed against the benchwork and helps keep equipment from being knocked to the floor accidentally. Good luck with your layout. I hope that it will prove to be interesting enough in the long term after the time and money spent on the construction.
Which turnout would you suggest?
It would be nice if an HO Shay could handle an 11% grade like that found at Cass, but I'm not gonna push my luck. I want the grade to be as much as the Bachmann Shay can comfortably handle so some testing is in my future. That will all help determine the transitions and such necessary for a smooth track.
I do plan to have the front of the track away from the edge. I drew my frame at the minimum I'd like so I knew I could easily expand forward. Regarding reach, there may be some hard to reach spots, but as with when I raced slot cars, a step stool is a handy thing, and being 6'-2" tall with long arms doesn't hurt either.
Thanks for the well wishes. The joy for me will be the contruction, after that, operating a couple trains is just a bonus. This is definitely more of a hobby than a passion for me, somewhere between a train running in a circle under the Christmas tree and a basement empire complete with freight timetables.
bibbsterWhich turnout would you suggest?
It depends on the final track plan. Generally, The Atlas Customline #4 (actually a #4½) is a good choice with minimum radii in the 18"-22" range in HO (barring S-curves). These are available with remote switch machines.
bibbsterRegarding reach, there may be some hard to reach spots, but as with when I raced slot cars, a step stool is a handy thing, and being 6'-2" tall with long arms doesn't hurt either.
The slot car tracks I've seen don't have delicate scenery at the aisle edge.
Turnouts far from the layout edge seem to often be the ones needing a little tweaking. Good access is a best practice based on many folks' experience in model railroading.
Based on the info from Atlas, the snap switches work with 18" radii, so I'm a little confused as to why they might cause issues if my radii are 18"+?
bibbsterBased on the info from Atlas, the snap switches work with 18" radii, so I'm a little confused as to why they might cause issues if my radii are 18"+?
Because the frogs are sharp -- the diverging curve is not the only consideration. Plus, you'll be shoving cars through them.
Personally, I'd rather not be using the tightest turnouts at the locations that are hardest to reach, but everyone makes their own judgements.
I did a little digging and found a good answer from jrbernier (Jim)...
"Snap-Switches and Customline turnouts are both HO scale. The difference is that the Customline turnouts are built like prototype turnouts(they have a straight angle through the frog area). The Snap-Switch turnouts have a continuous radius curve through the frog area - This can be either 18" radius or 22" radius depending on the item #. They are not very good for use in yards as the track spacing of parallel track will get pretty wide. As you mentioned, they also include either a manual or remote switch machine in the package."
If I go with the turnouts instead of snapswitches, the cost will go up, but it seems, based on this information and your comments, that the frustration factor will go down. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
There is plenty of published information on this line to help with building appropriate structures. The standard C&O station kit has been manufactured by several companies as one bought out the other. My kit for that is Quality Craft Models "Marlinton Station", Kit #104. The contents and plans allow for constructing the station in various lengths to suit different locations. I believe that this same kit has been also produced by one or more other companies.
Recall that Cass regularly operates "photo specials" of antique logging cars and equipment, so there will be plenty of things to fill up all storage tracks and also provide variety to your operations.
Bill
Hi Bill, thank you for the information! I've had my eye on several log cars that are prototypical, but I always get outbid. lol I'll run some down eventually. I don't even have the benchwork built yet so I have time I guess. :)
bibbsterIt would be nice if an HO Shay could handle an 11% grade like that found at Cass, but I'm not gonna push my luck. I want the grade to be as much as the Bachmann Shay can comfortably handle so some testing is in my future. That will all help determine the transitions and such necessary for a smooth track.
Bibbster
Welcome to the forums from another geared steam guy.
Yes, please test before committing, the Bachmann Shay is a tad light, so it can stuggle with "real word" grades, it is possible top add weight, but make sure your are committed to the number and type of cars you plan to push up the hill. Good trucks and metals wheelsets will help greatly.
Not sure if your going to use DCC, but you can always double the hill like Cass sometimes does if you have to add a couple more cars to satisfy ridership demands.
Do you already have a loco? Are the gears okay?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Hi fellow geared steam guy! Thank you for the warm welcome.
I will definitely test the grades with the various cars and qty's. I'd like to go as steep as possible but don't want to create frustration for the passengers.
I do have my Shay in hand, a Bachmann, and have done some circle track testing/break in. It seems to get along just fine, and I must say, even though my eyes see an HO Shay, my brain sees that little kid some 35 years ago standing in the cab as it goes by. The only thing missing is some 'steam & smoke'.
No DCC at this time.
Hello bibbster My daughter and I were there last year. We did not get to ride the train. but we were abe to stop and look around and get a few photos. Here is a link to the thread. There are some photos from Cass and one of my layout were my shay works
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/256636/2876679.aspx#2876679
Hope this helps Frank
Frank, thank you for the link to your thread. It sounds like you both had a great time. The pictures look great! Gotta love some overcast skies for taking photos. Clouds make great sun filters!
I did some testing of my wife's Bachmann 3 truck shay a few years ago. Without any modifications, the shay can push 3 loaded bachmann log cars or 6 emptys up a 2% grade. 3% 2 loads or 4 mty. 4% 1 load or 2 MTY. 5% the locomotive was able to push 1 MTY, no loads. 6% the locomotive could not make the climb itself. I then ran into the issue that the locomotive will slide backwards on a steep slope with no power applied (more so with loads than empty).
Added Bullfrog snot to treads of every other wheel, allowed time to cure. Locomotive performance was greatly increased. 6 empties on 5% grade. After a few tests with Bullfrog snot gears on the sides of the drive wheels disintegrated (this had already happened to my friend's wife's shay, and he did not apply bullfrog snot, so I believe it only accellerated the failure).
I have the NWSL replacement gears, just have not had the time or interest to take up the project. They are not very expensive from what I remember.
Thanks for the info on the pulling power of your wife's Shay. I should have track here in a few days to commence some testing with our passenger/caboose/log/ cars.
In preparation for actually getting this project underway, I'm trying to determine the best way to wire everything up. We'll be going DC at this time, and at some point, I'd like to have three trains available for simultaneous running; our Shay, a Climax, and a 2-4-4-2.In my head I see the Shay hauling tourists up and down the mountain, the Climax down in the depot area shifting log cars to the mainline and coal for the Shay. The 2-4-4-2 will run the mainline exclusively.We have 12 turnouts that will be operated by Tortoise machines, and of course, some lighting for the depot and some other things.My first layout was N scale and it was a single train with all manual turnouts, so this is a first. We would like to insulate certain areas to allow for operation simultaneously, but I honestly am not sure what makes the most sense. So first comes the where, and then, of course, comes the how. You've been warned.
The Mainline:
The Scenic Route:
bibbster So first comes the where, and then, of course, comes the how. You've been warned.
The how is easy. You cut a gap in one rail and insulate with styrene or use insulating rail joiners. You wire each section as with an on/off switch and/or selector switch for which power pack is controlling it. Atlas has a book on DC layout wiring, I think it is still in print.
The where requires someone who has done a DC layout recently, or uses DC for layout control (Im actually planning on using DC for the logging layout in the bedroom, wife's idea, not mine).
I'll take a look for that wiring book, thank you. I think we have decided on where we want to isolate each section. Does this make sense and look like the best plan of attack?
The red isolated section is the main line that runs around the layout.
The blue isolated section is for staging.
The green isolated section is the scenic route, runs from depot up to the top of the mountain.
The yellow section is the dislplay, coaling, and maintenance building (dead end).
The area I'm not sure about wiring is the cross over area (circled in orange) where the green and yellow intersect at two turnouts.
The typical best practice for DC wiring for multiple trains operating at once would be a bit different than what you have posted. A good book will help you understand how to create blocks that allow for a little more flexible movement of trains and engines.
Personally, I don’t care at all for any Atlas wiring book. Their wiring components are a hindrance, not a help, in my opinion. A good older book that is available used through resellers is Andy Sperandeo’s Easy Model Railroad Wiring, Second Edition (Kalmbach, 1999). A more-recent book is Larry Puckett’s Wiring Your Model Railroad (Kalmbach 2015).
cuyamaPersonally, I don’t care at all for any Atlas wiring book. Their wiring components are a hindrance, not a help, in my opinion.
+1
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