Does it work to build a layout with boards that are warped already?
I'm a'workin on the railroad.
"Boards" are generally not good things to build layouts with. Plywood is usually used. Boards tend to rearrange themselves as humidity changes. Plywood, too, but much less.
That said, wherever a straight "board" would be appropriate, a warped one might be, too. If either it doesn't matter or you can correct it. I've done both. But for non-layout uses. I always use plywood.
Well, that's not true, really. I use 2 x 2's for legs. And I suppose I could use warped ones. But they look ugly, so I pick through the straight grain kiln dried pile for something looking good.
Perhaps if you described the usage, a more complete answer might be provided.
Ed
Hello all,
What part of the layout are you thinking of building with this lumber?
How warped, or out of true, is the lumber you are considering?
What is/are the dimension(s) of the lumber (boards) are you talking about; 1"x2", 1"x4", 1"x6", 2"x2", 2"x4", etc.?
My father taught me how to sight lumber to make sure the boards are true.
You should see the looks on peoples faces at the local big box stores when I dive into a pile of lumber, sighting each piece and only taking the true ones and putting the warped ones back.
One fellow customer asked me what I was doing. After I explained he went through the pile that he placed on his trolly and put back almost half of what he pulled.
Yes, it is possible to bend warped lumber back into true but most of the time you are better off scraping those out of true boards with ones that are straight and true.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
7j43k"Boards" are generally not good things to build layouts with. Plywood is usually used.
Plywood? Really? I don't see much plywood framing used for benchwork construction in the giant threads that span months of layout construction.
I think we can give Sheldon the benefit of the doubt that he is not asking about benchwork and not using 1x4 for cookie cutter roadbed. Buying straight wood is important, and the way you find it in big box stores it frequently is not straight. The whole pallet of wood is warped.
Assuming you can buy straight wood, keeping it straight isn't easy these days. I don't know if they are skimping on kiln drying or the wood sits outside for a while. Absolutely you cannot just lean it against the wall vertically; it has to be stored flat. Even then it can warp. I've got no tips on how to straighten it once it warps.
For that reason I am actually using plywood for my modular benchwork based on a table top plan http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/get-started/2011/11/benchwork-for-your-model-railroad
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
It is pretty hard to get lumber these days that isn't warped. I built my benchwork using the David Barrow "domino" approach, so my segments are all just 4 feet long. It is a 2' by 4' frame above a 2' by 4' frame and all constructed using 1x4 dimensional lumber.
Cutting the ends to a standard width, it is possible to "bull" a slightly warped 1x4 piece of pine cut to a four foot length using a 90 degree angle clamp and plenty of screws. What I found is that if I had some warped dimensional lumber, it was easier to work with in longer pieces -- in other words, better to use it for the 4 foot lengths than the 22 3/8" inch end pieces and interior braces. So if I bought a 6 or 8 foot length of 1x4, I would pick and choose what parts were for sides, or ends/interior braces. Am I making myself clear here?
And it is possible to attach a slightly warped piece of plywood to the top of that framework, again if using plenty of screws. However a severely warped piece of plywood takes its revenge in an irregular top surface when laying track.
By the way I have built both framework and even "L" shaped legs using exclusively plywood cut to size, and screwed and glued together. Jim Hediger had an article in MR about using plywood instead of dimensional lumber in layout benchwork construction.
Dave Nelson
BigDaddy 7j43k "Boards" are generally not good things to build layouts with. Plywood is usually used. Plywood? Really? I don't see much plywood framing used for benchwork construction in the giant threads that span months of layout construction. I think we can give Sheldon the benefit of the doubt that he is not asking about benchwork and not using 1x4 for cookie cutter roadbed. Buying straight wood is important, and the way you find it in big box stores it frequently is not straight. The whole pallet of wood is warped. Assuming you can buy straight wood, keeping it straight isn't easy these days. I don't know if they are skimping on kiln drying or the wood sits outside for a while. Absolutely you cannot just lean it against the wall vertically; it has to be stored flat. Even then it can warp. I've got no tips on how to straighten it once it warps. For that reason I am actually using plywood for my modular benchwork based on a table top plan http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/get-started/2011/11/benchwork-for-your-model-railroad
7j43k "Boards" are generally not good things to build layouts with. Plywood is usually used.
I do admit I haven't done a proper poll of layouts on the subject of plank-vs-plywood.
In the field of Free-mo modules, I don't recall seeing boards/planks at all. 2x2's, yes.
I do look forward to hearing more about what Sheldon's plans are.
My benchwork was built with material that is always straight, uniform, light weight, easy to work with, dustless, unaffected by humidity, and is strong and less expensive than wood.. I use steel studs. The idea and methods were outlined in an article by JonathonMiner in the April 2000 issue of MR. Instead of foam sub roadbed in the article, I use plywood risers and subroadbed. The suporting legwork is 2X2 wood legframes, sealed and painted. I am very happy with the use for 12 years now. No saging or warping, everything remains level and aligned.
Another more extensive article is by Bill Boyd and Art Jones in the May 2005 MR that should also be of interest for anyone considering this way of model railroad foundation construction.
arbe1948 My benchwork was built with material that is always straight, uniform, light weight, easy to work with, dustless, unaffected by humidity, and is strong and less expensive than wood.. I use steel studs.
My benchwork was built with material that is always straight, uniform, light weight, easy to work with, dustless, unaffected by humidity, and is strong and less expensive than wood.. I use steel studs.
Hear! Hear! Another vote for steel studs,
The idea and methods were outlined in an article by JonathonMiner in the April 2000 issue of MR. Instead of foam sub roadbed in the article, I use plywood risers and subroadbed. The suporting legwork is 2X2 wood legframes, sealed and painted. I am very happy with the use for 12 years now. No saging or warping, everything remains level and aligned.
Interestingly enough, I never read either article until after I had erected most of my benchwork. Mine is classic L girder design, with heavyweight (load bearing wall) stud 'C works like L' girders and lighter, smaller-section joists. I form risers out of short lengths of steel stud stock, bending flanges where needed to support cookie-cut plywood sub-roadbed. Hidden tangents often run in steel studs laid rain gutter fashion.
Since my layout resides in a garage that can't be climate controlled (vents open to the outside, mandated by code) it experiences Farenheit temperatures from the 20s to the 120s, while ambient humidity is usually a single digit number. The combination does wierd and (not so) wonderful things to forest products. When (not if) my subgrade cookies try to assume undesired warps and wiggles I beat them into submission with steel angle stock screwed to the underside.
I've been quite happy with my results to date. OTOH, I re-purposed a length of pine plank (which had been a storage yard when I lived in Tennessee) into a staging yard. It took several lengths of heavyweight angle iron to undo the twist it acquired in its new home.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in the dessicated desert of Southern Nevada)
Ed I was being unneccessarily snarky, my apologies.
Steel stud guys, do use sheet metal screws to hold things together?
BigDaddy Steel stud guys, do use sheet metal screws to hold things together?
I use the 8-32 x 9/16" screws designed for steel stud assembly, occasionally use longer sheet metal screws, and use 1/4-20 bolts where I might have to disassemble sections later.
Those little steel stud screws also hold the plywood cookies to the risers. The trick is to drill a 1/16' hole down through the (clamped) plywood and riser flange, then install the screw from underneath.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964.
After seeing the title, I immediately dug into the thread and found myself completely disappointed. You see, we have a homeowner's association and it has a board, and . . .
Oh well, never mind.
CG
When I buy a board for a new ISL I buy the top grade shelving board instead of the second or third grade..I pick the best of the best and know I will be adding frame bracing with cross support bracing every 12".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BigDaddyPlywood? Really?
Yes, really. Many builders are using "stick" lumber ripped from quality 3/4" plywood for layout framing (this includes a number of custom builders). They choose it because it yields boards that are straighter and less prone to warp.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I'm one who goes through the bin looking for straights. I have even bought 1x8's and ripped them into 1x4's.
How the board is warped determines it's usuability. See Wikiperdia here for pictures of the different types of warp.
If it's twisted it's just junk.
If it's kinked you can cut out the kink and have short boards.
If it's cupped I would skip it, but if the cup isn't too bad you use for bracing.
If it's crooked you can use it with the curve on the high side and plane it straight.
If it's bowed slightly you can force it straight with extra screws, otherwise cut it into shorted pieces.
But again, it's best to be choosy. I have walked away without buying anything when the selection was poor.
Good luck
Paul
Would pressure treated boards be less likely to warp?
BigDaddy Ed I was being unneccessarily snarky, my apologies.
No problemo, as we Americans are wont to say. As an occasional snarkifier, I'm certainly in no position to get anti-snarkalicious.
Anyway, I truly WAS making an unwarranted assumption about who uses what.
I, myself, do tend to use plywood for layout/module construction. I see it as much more stable than planks. And when I say "plywood", I do not mean the variations of glued sawdust and woodchips that people use for the strangest reasons.
I can see a couple of reasons to go against this "rule":
If the plank is used as a beam. That is, it has signicant load in its span. Roof rafters come to mind. As do bookshelves. And I suppose the matter could come up in layout construction--all those L-girders and track risers and such (though I'd stick to plywood for the actual sub-roadbed).
If the "plank" is loaded from the ends. Legs. A 2 x 2 will make a better leg than two 1 1/2" wide 3/4" thick pieces of plywood glued together. Now, if one takes the volume of wood in a 2 x 2 and rearranges it as an "angle iron", that's another matter. But you can do that both with plywood and plank. And I believe the latter will also be stronger.
Lastly, if you're doin' a "furniture" layout. Self explanatory, I think.
Sheldon Beiler Would pressure treated boards be less likely to warp?
I would think it depends on what they're treated with.
More to the point, they generally stink for awhile, are heavy, have sawdust that's unhealthy to breath. And they should cost more. Unless you got one of those deals.
And, as far as I know, if you should choose to do it, you'd be the "first one through the door". With all that that implies.
BUT.
If someone's done it, I surely hope they'll volunteer there results.
Warping in a straight board is caused by the uneven change in moisture within the wood fibers. If the moisture change throughout the wood is even, and the grain is straight, the wood will not warp, but will change size (2-5% depending on species). Moisture content change swells or shrinks wood fibers mostly in the fiber cross section, but but affects the fiber length to some degree, too. The wood fibers release or increase moisture content to reflect the local atmospheric moisture content over time.
As a result, straight, clear boards with consistent fiber direction and diameter are less likely to warp as the fibers swell or shrink. Think about a wood planked boat. When stored out of the water, the wood fibers in the planks shrink because of the reduced moisture content of the air, particularly during the winter. When the boat is put in the water, the thing leaks like a seive until the increased moisture content forces the planks to swell together. Because of this, boat planking has to be clear (no knots), straight-grained wood so that the planks do not warp, but swell in place.
Pressure-treated wood has a poisonous chemical applied under pressure (hence the name) to prevent spores and critters from entering and eating the wood fibers. The pressure helps the chemical go a little below the surface of the wood into the interior fibers close to the surface. The chemical will likely reduce the rate of moisture infilitration/exhalation by the wood fibers, similar to wood stains. This can help prevent the moisture changes from being uneven, assuming the board was straight to begin with.
Likewise, paint and other coatings reduce the rate of moisture change in wood (except for plastic like fiberglass resin they are all permeable to some degree). But paint on one side only can cause warping because the rate of change again becomes uneven.
Plywood is more dimensionally stable because the stack of wood fibers in a given layer is pretty small and the glue between layers both blocks moisture transmission and anchors the fibers in place.
things I learned building wooden boats
It might work, but you'll probably regret it. Straight boards or ripped plywood is the way to go.
- Douglas
Hi!
I assume when you say "boards" you are referring to just that, and not plywood.
While a warped board may be used for a crossbrace, I wouldn't use it for a leg or lateral (horizontal) support for the plywood (or whatever) of the layout surface.
I would definitely not use treated wood. It is made for outside, it has hazardous chemicals that are especially bad when cutting the wood. Leave the treated stuff for fences or decks or the like.
Your benchwork is the foundation of the layout. However you make it will affect the results of the layout above - for better or worse.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Don't use these indoors. They are poisonous and outgas for a long time.
You should also use protection when cutting.
And they can warp as they dry out, especially the cheaper boards like those found at the typical big box home center..
LION used 100% salvaged boards from buildings built more than 75 years ago. Back then they had much better quality control. They were well seasoned by the time I got them. The ones from the science building floor were the best. Others from the corn crib wall were also useable but were never finished smooth, and they had both splinters and organic matter on them. Of course they got used anyway.
All boards were pre cut by the LION to the specifications him required in the woodshop before bringnng them up to the train room. Boards worked PURRFECTLY.
Maybe you do not have barn full of surplus lumber. Big Boxes need sorting, a good lumber yard will serve you better.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I used 1x4 boards from HD, all straight but I used the modular meathond so only 1 special section had longer than a 4' span. Toped it with beaded foam that had been sitting around for at least 3 months (after that, no shrinkage and you can buy after shrinkage foam now). Been up for years and no problems.
Remember the addage GIGO- -Garbage In Garbage Out!
Sheldon, I'm curious as to this line of questions regarding wood and warping.
Do you have access to less than desirable lumber; i.e. warped?
Are you concerned about warping after construction due to atmospheric conditions?
If you purchase quality, straight, materials the chance of warping is greatly reduced.
Wood is a cellulose material. When the wood is processed it is dried, either by kiln or open-air. Both process remove liquid; either water or resins (sap) from the raw or green wood.
The moisture content of cured lumber is approximately 17%.
During the drying (curing) process the cells react differently to the removal of moisture.
Some cells constrict more than the surrounding cells. This creates the warping of cut lumber.
Plywood and fiberboards are created from cured wood and subjected to heat and pressure along with a binding agent to create the finished product.
These are less susceptible to swelling and contraction due to moisture.
Marine plywood is made up of specific hardwoods and moisture resistant resins to produce a laminate that is resistant to moisture. It tends to be denser and heavier than the traditional plyed-woods. It is also more expensive given the same dimensions of it's traditional cousins.
If you are concerned about warping post-construction consider painting or sealing the lumber before construction to prevent warping from atmospheric moisture, or lack there of.
If you are trying to use warped materials to create a straight structure remember GIGO!
LOTS of good info guys!
But what happened to the OP???
If you know somebody with a good quality table saw, or have one yourself, by all means take 3/4" plywood and rip it to 3 3/4 " ( 1 x 4 ) and 1 3/4 (1 x 2 ). Not only will it be FAR more straight than any stick lumber you find these days, but even if you buy the very best cabinet grade plywood it will STILL be cheaper than stick lumber.The ONLY drawback is it's heavier than pine. But if it's not a portable layout this isn't a consideration.Most everybody I know who's built a layout in the last 15 years or so has used this method.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
mobilman44 LOTS of good info guys! But what happened to the OP???
Lumber in Hamburg dows not warp.... It Rusts.
ROAIRINNG
BroadwayLion Lumber in Hamburg dows not warp.... It Rusts. ROAIRINNG
Oh, Brother Elias - and how much lumber warps in that humid climate of hours. That´s why I become very selective regarding my choice of materials for benchwork.