Okay, I admit it, I suck.
I've been in this hobby for 37 years. I've done HO, N, even a bit of Fn3. I've ripped both steamers and diesels to shreds and reassembled them, mostly successfully. I've torn the same 4' by 6.5' sheet of plywood down a dozen times and rebuilt it as a new 'layout'. I've been to train shows, i've rail fanned, i've been in model railroad clubs.
Yet, I've never done a lick of scenery. I've never built a layout building, carved a plaster rock, or even planted a ruddy little model tree. I have never taken a layout past the lumber/track/wires stage. I am a complete neophyte when it comes to un-uglying a scene.
So my question is this: now that I have the time, resources, and interest to take a layout past its hideous early stages, what comes first? Do I get my operations nailed down perfectly? Do I dabble with the scenery beforehand? Do I get a backdrop in place to make the Growlery look less like the back aisle at Home Depot?
I realize this is a 'do whatever you want' question. I'm curious how other more experienced modellers have proceeded. Thank you all for your guidance!
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
I would get the trackwork done first. Here's the thing, and it happens to me. If you try for perfection with the trackwork, you might find yourself never finishing it. And if you have a lot of engines that even compounds the time. I love doing scenery! But if you do that first, it might get in the way of doing trackwork. One thing I would do before anything, is to get the room looking the way you want it. That would include the backdrop before the benchwork.
Joe C
dominic c I would get the trackwork done first. Here's the thing, and it happens to me. If you try for perfection with the trackwork, you might find yourself never finishing it. And if you have a lot of engines that even compounds the time. I love doing scenery! But if you do that first, it might get in the way of doing trackwork. One thing I would do before anything, is to get the room looking the way you want it. That would include the backdrop before the benchwork. Joe C
Hmm. I agree. Since the benchwork and most of the roadbed is in, I guess it's time to learn to paint around corners. Still, thanks Joe!
Only one time did I get to the scenery stage - and that didn't get beyond a little plaster hillside. Otherwise I have never finished the track laying and wiring stage. For many reasons, the layout gets torn down before scenery. But to be honest, I'm mostly interested in running trains so I strive to do all the benchwork, tracklaying, and wiring before any scenery.
Paul
Stu,
I have a rather larger area for my layouts, so was blessed with enough space to both work on track and do scenery without getting in the way of each other. Sounds like you won't have that working in your favor. But my most recent expansion built on techniques I learned on the first part of the layout, most importantly how to build lightweight liftouts from extruded (pink or blue) foam, shaped and overcoated with Sculptamold.
What I did with my Cascade Extension was to build the benchwork, based on L-girder/cookie cutter but adapted to my needs, then build most of the scenery on it as a series of liftouts. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/219241.aspx?page=1
I didn't have much funding for the track I needed at first, but I was able to lay a main for a nice long run and a terminal at the end, so it was operational and had roughed in scenery fast. When the Purchasing Dept could do so, additional track was procured, the sections removed where it could help with tracklaying and wiring, and then they were reinstalled. As things were finished up with track,the scenery got more detail once it was staying in place, more or less.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have only very little space available for a layout - in fact, not more than 3 by 5ft. for an HO scale narrow gauge layout. Naturally, one can´t expect a lot of operation on a layout that small. Basically, it´s just on oval of track with a stub-end siding.
End of last year, I finished laying the track and the basic wiring was done, so I could run a train over the layout.
Nothing thrilling at all! The begiining of this year saw the start on scenery, which, at the end of January, looked like this:
Still not at all thrilling, the lack of scenery really made this layout into a dull thing anyone would lose interest in after a couple of minutes.
Fast forward - in those 6 months since the above picture, the layout has undergone quite a transformation!
It´s still the same old, rather boring "operation" but I do enjoy watching the train run through the scenery, making the layout a lttle more "thrilling"
The layout is far from being complete - a lot of details are still to be added, the biggest addition being the catenary.
I really enjoy this layout, despite its limitations in terms of operation. Scenery, at least to me, is equally important than operation, which by itself, would not sustain my interest much more without anything "nice" to look at.
In spite of the best "professional" advice to get your track down, wired, and tinkered with so operation is bulletproof first before even thinking of doing any scenery, I myself found it motivating to at least commence a couple of signature scenes that I was hoping would look nice, even as the track was still being laid elsewhere and before even basic experimental wiring had been installed. This included not only regular scenery creation but also my first efforts at bridge scratchbuilding, using static grass, and pouring (and sealing!) Magic Water.
What I would say is that it gave me enough of a rewarding foretaste of what the future might hold to give me the willpower to keep on with the boring parts.
Dave Nelson
Scenery means diddly squat if your trains derail every few feet. Get your layout up to 100% derailment free operation then start adding your scenery.
The results will be a derailment free layout with nice looking scenery.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
In all seriousness, if you haven't done any of that stuff over the past 37 years, why start now? If I were you, I wouldn't even bother.
Rich
Alton Junction
BRAKIEScenery means diddly squat if your trains derail every few feet. Get your layout up to 100% derailment free operation then start adding your scenery. The results will be a derailment free layout with nice looking scenery.
Larry I couldn't agree more. But OMG sometimes it seems so frustrating at times. Like most members, I have collected a good bit of engines of several brands, diesel, and steam. And on top of it all, I have a reverse loop. So all these engines having 0% derailments (or any other problems), in both directions, sometimes seems like an up hill battle. My operations would be running 2 or 3 engines at a time with their trains and if everything goes well, I switch them out daily. And after 10 or 11 engines run flawlessly and I feel comfortable that the track is in good shape, guess what? the 13th engine gives me some sort of problem. So its back to working on the track. And scenery is put on the back burner once again. Also to respond to another post, I have worked on scenery in certain spots while still working with the track. But the scenery is an areas in the back. I don't have to work around it.
The best idea is to consider what kind of scenery you want beginning with the initial planning, and allow for it all through construction.
It is entirely possible to model a modern "wrong side of the tracks" urban-industrial area without ever shaping a hill, carving a mountain or planting a tree. Roads, sidewalks, parking areas paved and gravel, little islands full (or part-full) of stunted ground cover, the plainest of plain concrete structures...
It's also possible to work on scenery (at a place where both surface and subterranean track has been op tested bulletproof) while only a few feet away there is subgrade awaiting roadbed, with track to follow.
Then, too, what is the relationship between the track and the scenery? If you have a shelf, all the layers of scenery beyond the right-of-way fence can be built before a single tie touches the roadbed in the foreground. On the other hand, if the rails run through the scenery instead of in front of it, they had better be laid, tested and thoroughly debugged before you roof over the tunnel or plant a forest along the fascia.
There is also the will of the owner. Linn Westcott once defined an operating model railroader as one who wanted his signals to operate correctly before embarking on scenery construction. Au contraire, the model railfan wants the train to pass through realistic terrain so people can enjoy the 1:1 scale activity in smaller size.
My vote? If the trackwork isn't bulletproof, world-class scenery won't be appreciated. Where the trackwork IS bulletproof, go for it.
Chuck (Modeling mountainous Central Japan in September, 1964)
dknelsonWhat I would say is that it gave me enough of a rewarding foretaste of what the future might hold to give me the willpower to keep on with the boring parts
People seem to find that troublesome. Fact of the matter is we're forced to wear the hair shirt plenty enough in life. Without a little extra inspiration, lots of folks would otherwise fold their tents and go home. I'm with you Dave, scenery helps sustain you through all the boring stuff. You find a balance in many cases -- or you just give up. There are those who think of the hobby in exclusive terms -- all the people who don't quite measure up in some way -- may want to lose those sorts of folks. I don't think our hobby can afford to lose anyone.
Then there is the idea of 100% or bulletproof track. If you can accomplish that, great. Then try to keep it that way. Maybe where you're lucky enough to have 24/7/365 climate control. Otherwise, things change, wear out, and move. What was 100% yesterday might be 98% tomorrow. Then there's new track. Yep, lay it carefully and skillfully. But it's rare that it's 100% first time, every time, with every bit of rolling stock running through it without a hitch. You do have to work at it to get it there as Larry notes, but these other factors mean it'll only stay 100% with a lot of hard work and some test running that may not be so perfect.
Then you take all that, extend it to ~500 SF and put it in a basement in the Midwest and if you can keep it at about 98% that's plenty good enough for me. After all, what reall RR was ever 100% derailment-free? It's just not prototypical, some roads more than others.
richhotrain In all seriousness, if you haven't done any of that stuff over the past 37 years, why start now? If I were you, I wouldn't even bother. Rich
Okay Rich, I'll snap at that hook!
Circumstances (mostly my own ill-advised life choices) have kept me from staying long enough in one home to put down serious roots. We all know that building a layout takes time, space, and not moving your silly self every few years because you hit on the landlord's daughter again. Finally my family is in a long term space, somewhere the layout can be a permanent addition. Thus, I can finally go whole hog on this.
I turn 40 this year, providing a convenient excuse to blow money on trains. I'm not slow to take advantage.
Thanks to all for your input. Ulrich, who cares if it's small? I love that setup!
Rastafarr richhotrain In all seriousness, if you haven't done any of that stuff over the past 37 years, why start now? If I were you, I wouldn't even bother. Rich Okay Rich, I'll snap at that hook! Circumstances (mostly my own ill-advised life choices) have kept me from staying long enough in one home to put down serious roots. We all know that building a layout takes time, space, and not moving your silly self every few years because you hit on the landlord's daughter again. Finally my family is in a long term space, somewhere the layout can be a permanent addition. Thus, I can finally go whole hog on this. I turn 40 this year, providing a convenient excuse to blow money on trains. I'm not slow to take advantage. Thanks to all for your input. Ulrich, who cares if it's small? I love that setup! Stu
When you said that you have been in the hobby 37 years and not got beyond the track on plywood stage, I picture some 77 year old who started in the hobby at age 40, not some 40 year old who who started in the hobby at age 3.
By all means, then, start landscaping, detailing, and ballasting.
richhotrain Rastafarr richhotrain In all seriousness, if you haven't done any of that stuff over the past 37 years, why start now? If I were you, I wouldn't even bother. Rich Okay Rich, I'll snap at that hook! Circumstances (mostly my own ill-advised life choices) have kept me from staying long enough in one home to put down serious roots. We all know that building a layout takes time, space, and not moving your silly self every few years because you hit on the landlord's daughter again. Finally my family is in a long term space, somewhere the layout can be a permanent addition. Thus, I can finally go whole hog on this. I turn 40 this year, providing a convenient excuse to blow money on trains. I'm not slow to take advantage. Thanks to all for your input. Ulrich, who cares if it's small? I love that setup! Stu ahhh, you shoulda said that in the first place. When you said that you have been in the hobby 37 years and not got beyond the track on plywood stage, I picture some 77 year old who started in the hobby at age 40, not some 40 year old who who started in the hobby at age 3. By all means, then, start landscaping, detailing, and ballasting. Rich
ahhh, you shoulda said that in the first place.
Ha! Certainly no offence taken! I'm already fond of using 'when I was your age' themed stories to irritate my children.
37 years of off-and-on experience has only taught me how long it can take someone to learn nothing....
Well I may be in the minority, but my layout is almost finished as far as scenery. Mine is a modest 15x30' layout with two yards and a dozen sidings in a dogbone shape. First off get the track to run well. Next do your basic hills and valleys (if you used a foam base this is easy, if not, not so much. Next do your basic ground cover, then I ballast and start to put detailed scenery in, like buildings roads, trees and bushes.
rrebell Well I may be in the minority, but my layout is almost finished as far as scenery. Mine is a modest 15x30' layout with two yards and a dozen sidings in a dogbone shape. First off get the track to run well. Next do your basic hills and valleys (if you used a foam base this is easy, if not, not so much. Next do your basic ground cover, then I ballast and start to put detailed scenery in, like buildings roads, trees and bushes.
Well, Rrebell, I hope you don't mind me picking your brain a bit. I too want to go the foam base route, but my scenery is heavily skewed towards rugged mountains. Any suggestions? Warnings? Headache pill recommendations?
I use foamboard for level surfaces but I found something easier and faster for hills and mountains. It's the Woodland Scenics Shaper Sheets. go to their website and check them out.
dominic c I use foamboard for level surfaces but I found something easier and faster for hills and mountains. It's the Woodland Scenics Shaper Sheets. go to their website and check them out. Joe C
Okay, I like that. Self-supporting hardshell. She doesn't go into a lot of detail about combining it with the plaster cloth; I imagine that would expedite the seaming process.
Joe, thank you! That is great!
Hi Rastafarr
Quality bench work then track and full wiring thorough testing and play time.
Then once thats done and trains run flawlessly scenery which is basicaly done where whenever and how you want to do it.
It is however a good idea to get any backscene up at benchwork construction time before track goes down as these tend to be big sheets of wood if using traditional construction methods and could damadge track and trains.
regards John
mlehman....my most recent expansion built on techniques I learned on the first part of the layout, most importantly how to build lightweight liftouts from extruded (pink or blue) foam, shaped and overcoated with Sculptamold....
dominic c I use foamboard for level surfaces but I found something easier and faster for hills and mountains. It's the Woodland Scenics Shaper Sheets. go to their website and check them out.
Either of the above options sound useful for your mountainous terrain.I wasn't looking for mountains on my layout, set in southern Ontario, but rather a scenic feature somewhat resembling the Niagara Escarpment, which is a prominent feature of the area where I live.
My landforms were done using Durabond patching plaster over aluminum window screen, and for most areas, a block or two of scrap wood or some short risers screwed to the open grid benchwork was sufficient to create low rolling terrain:
However, since the layout was intended to eventually be partially double-decked, the grade from the lower level was layed out on a peninsula which was planned to be a scenic feature, with no structures other than bridges.I used the same technique as above, but with much taller risers, and since the whole area will be covered in trees, didn't worry too much about the pointy bits seen below, even though without trees they look rather mountainous:
The balance of the peninsula isn't yet covered, which affords a view of the area with the temporary risers removed. The structure is self-supporting and strong enough that I can lean on it when I get around to making a couple zillion trees:
Construction was pretty simple: install a few risers, staple the screen to the edge of the 3/4" subroadbed and to the risers, mix a batch of plaster and spread it on with a drywall knife of appropriate width. I use Durabond 90, which sets in about 90 minutes, regardless of how thick (or thin) it's mixed. I mix it slightly on the thick side, which makes application fairly non-messy. Once that batch of plaster has been used-up, I take a cheap 2" brush to apply water, fairly generously, to smooth out the knife strokes, and when it's fully hardened (a day-or-so) use the same brush to apply well-thinned latex house paint in a suitable dirt shade.Durabond, in various setting times, is available at the usual home improvement places, in 33lb. bags and in boxes for smaller quantities. I don't know how the costs compare to plaster gauze, but it's definitely less messy to apply and stronger, too.
Wayne
If you get the Activa 5 lb box of plaster cloth of Amazon, you get about 40% more than with the lower cost model train brand. I was able to cover about 80% of the area shown here with that one box; granted my layout is small.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Get the track work done and make sure it really does opperate flawlessly. Then dive into the scenery. I much prefer to do the scenery work. I love making an area look realisitc. I am helping a friend with a 22 ft by 44 ft B&O location specific layout done. We are currently working on Fairmont WV. Huge roundhouse and branch to Wheeling along a major source of water(Buffalo Creek). It is looking real fine.
Wayne, that's gorgeous work. Niagara Escarpment, huh? Is the Brock Monument in there somewhere? Some of the most beautiful territory in this enormous country of ours. I miss Niagara-On-The-Lake.
My setting is the BC Rockies, specifically the CPR's Big Hill near Field. Vicious place for operations, even with the Spiral Tunnels simplifying things a bit.
Thanks to all for your input. This is awesome!
Thanks for your kind words, Stu.
Rastafarr...Niagara Escarpment, huh? Is the Brock Monument in there somewhere?....
No Brock Monument, but that's because I've done a very loose interpretation of southern Ontario. I've used real place names and rivers, but they bear little resemblance to their prototypes...I've even got the Maitland River emptying into Lake Erie rather than Lake Huron. Because of the odd-shaped room, I resorted to adding a tunnel in order to doubledeck part of the layout, and needed a way to make the surrounding area look at least somewhat like southern Ontario. The only railway tunnel in this part of Ontario of which I'm aware is the so-called Blue Ghost tunnel under the old Welland Canal. Built by the Great Western, it became part of the Grand Trunk and was later absorbed into the CNR. Those pointy-looking plaster forms will eventually be transformed in a tree-covered mound with the most distinctive features being the railroad tracks and its bridges, along with a river or two.If you remember it, visualise the Escarpment at the Forty, as seen from the QEW.
Say WHAT!? I about snapped at that hook too! Good save, Rich.
I'm chiming in because I'm in close to the same shape as the OP. For about as long as he has, I have built layouts to not much past the plywood and track stage. Yeah, and scads of locomotives... Now, I'm at the highly anticipated, yet unexperienced scenery point. I started my current layout around 2000. Took 'till only a couple years ago to finally get it to scenery. I'm 58, for what it's worth
Scenery is a whole new ball game. I considder myself to be on the steep part of the learning curve I'm back to learning a whole new set of skills. (I have built structures before, but I'm using new materials and techniques for those now too.) It's great to see even a small part of the layout start to look like the real world!
I totally encourage you; DO JUMP IN! As the pictures already posted show, even the difference the plaster covered hills makes compared to all open flat benchwork with track changes the way you look at your layout.
We now have an advantage over even a few years ago: You Tube! Just look at the great variety of materials and approaches displayed there. Pick something you feel comfortable enough to try, and dive in!
What experience I do have so far would have me tell you, get the backdrop up early in the game. Dan
I know the scenery stage can be intimidating and I suffer the same myself. Although I am fully anticipating doing all the scenery on my current layout (new 12x26 horseshoe shaped layout on 2" foam), I wanted to avoid the ugly view of nothing but bare track on blue foam. To help avoid the ugly view, I have been adding temporary scenery as I lay track. The temporary scenery is nothing more than painting my blue foam a grass colored green with some roads painted on also. You will be amazed at how the simple application of paint will add to the appearance of your layout by avoiding the look of an unfinished layout. I also add a cutout of the footprint of structures I will be using so I can get my track placement right. If my operations show that I need to add/delete/move some track, it can be done with ease. Once I am satisfied with my operations, I go back and start adding hills and buildings over the painted areas.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
dominic c My operations would be running 2 or 3 engines at a time with their trains and if everything goes well, I switch them out daily. And after 10 or 11 engines run flawlessly and I feel comfortable that the track is in good shape, guess what? the 13th engine gives me some sort of problem. So its back to working on the track. And scenery is put on the back burner once again.
First I would check the engine that is causing the issue..All the wheels on my last Athearn RTR GP38-2 was out of gauge by a tad just enough to derail at the switch points.
As far as scenery be happy you're not dealing with industrial scenery on a ISL because the trash/scrap in the trash container needs to match the industry.
As a example.
One wouldn't see scrap iron at Mid State Grocery Distributors but cardboard in the trash/recycling hopper would look normal as would stacks of broken pallets. Making flatten cardboard boxes to place in the hopper is no easy feat.
When I returned to the hobby the good people on this forum that gave me so much help all said to get the backdrop in first or you will live to regret not doing it. I am glad I listened, I couldn't imagine trying to do it after the fact. Here's proof that I do have will power and discipline.
At some point I hope to improve on the painting of clouds as I am becoming more adept with the airbrush. Running a roller over the backdrop should not be too big of a problem.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMANAt some point I hope to improve on the painting of clouds as I am becoming more adept with the airbrush. Running a roller over the backdrop should not be too big of a problem.
You need to watch how Bob Ross (Joy of Painting) makes his clouds.Looks easy peasy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enutOy-nsZk