Hi all,
I'm currently putting down the scenery shell for my On30 Bradford Valley Lumber Co. layout, and I've run into a bit of an issue with the plaster shell that will be forming the base of the scenery. Currently, my method is as follows:
This approach worked on sections 1 and 2 of my layout, as you can see here:
However, for areas where there is a larger gap, there does tend to be a slight sag in the ground. In this shot of section 2, it's where the green plaster was used to fill out the sag, just above the second set of points:
I thought, given that the construction paper seems relatively strong, that this would just be a small effect. However, on section 5, there was quite a pronnounced sag in several sections:
This particular section of the scenery is supported underneath by corflute material, glued to the cross members of the framework, which are 1' apart. This area was supposed to be level, as it's where logging camp D is going to go. I think I'll have to fill out the sags with plaster.
After getting this result, I realised I was missing something. Namely, I think that for sections 3 & 4 I'll need to provide more support. These two sections are the most complex, in terms of terrain, elevation, etc. and so I've left them until last.
Here's what I've got for section 4 at the moment (section 3 isn't done yet):
Thing is, the larger sections are about the same size as the section that gave me the sag on section 2. I know I'm not the first person to use this method of scenery construction, so I thought I'd ask, what am I missing? Do I just need to add more of the corflute as per above, or do I need to do some sort of 'woven cardboard' type structure?
In addition to the corflute material, I also have several cardboard boxes stockpiled for this very purpose.
It's my first time doing this sort of scenery and open-frame benchwork, so any advice would be appreciated.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
I think you are trying to re-invent the wheel. You need a lot more support. Have a look at this thread which is at the opposite extreme of not having enough support:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/256284.aspx
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
for areas where there is a larger gap, there does tend to be a slight sag in the ground.
I've been following a similar process but may not be as far along as you. What I've done to avoid "sag" is to build up a skeleton using some thin pieces of scrap wood I have (such as luan, 1/2-inch plywood etc.) which has enough strength to support the cardboard strip sub-scenery in area's where there was a gap. Further more, I even went as far as to build in some "shelve" sections in the skeleton to support some shapes in the cardboard strips so that it gives the general look of some resistant rock ledges in the canyon scenery I am working on.
The ledges that are visible in the cardboard shapes were formed by hot gluing the card board strips to some curved or straight pieces of scrap wood supported by some wood skeleton framework attached to the bench cross members. They will not sag because they are attached to cross members of the benchwork. Photo's 2,3,4 and 5 are recent work in the past few weeks.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I haved tryed and then given up on plaster shell,too mutch time, work, and mess.
I use foam; cut,broke,carved,and shaped, glued with caulk, covered with drywall mud, some tinted with water colors, then finshed wit a wet [water] paint brush.
Use a mesh tape over joints,up to 1in, most shagging,looks lik it belongs there,if not just fill with more mud.
Don't answer your question, but IMO a better way to do it
UNCLEBUTCH I haved tryed and then given up on plaster shell,too mutch time, work, and mess. I use foam; cut,broke,carved,and shaped, glued with caulk, covered with drywall mud, some tinted with water colors, then finshed wit a wet [water] paint brush. Use a mesh tape over joints,up to 1in, most shagging,looks lik it belongs there,if not just fill with more mud. Don't answer your question, but IMO a better way to do it
Your still going to need to cover up the carved foam with plaster or something to hide all the rough edges. I've seen a lot of mess from carving and shaving foam too.
How is cardboard strips with plaster cloth more messy?
So far I haven't generated hardly any mess - plaster cloth is just dip and drape, and hot glue and cardboard can go pretty quickly. No shavings to vacuum up from a rasp. Just cut card board boxes into strips with a box cutter and hot glue them. Mine has taken a bit longer because of the way I've chosen to do land forms with it rather than just a basic hill. Otherwise it can be much faster.
riogrande5761Your still going to need to cover up the carved foam with plaster or something to hide all the rough edges. I've seen a lot of mess from carving and shaving foam too.
I have just been through that exercise and believe me, it is as messy as making the classic hardshell scenery from plaster. I ended up with cleaning up the mess I made from carving the foam and later emoveing the dust from applying that layer of plaster.
I wonder about the OP's use of "construction paper" which I have not used since I was in school but recall as being not terribly sturdy when it gets damp. I think some guys use the same basic technique as he does but use red rosin paper which you can get at a home supply store.
I myself use the cardboard strip lattice plus strips of plaster cloth method. Yes it creates mess but I have a solid top type benchwork not an open grid so the mess pretty much stays where I can deal with it.
By the way those photos of the cardboard strip lattice posted earlier are so pretty and neat-as-a-pin that it seems a shame to cover them up!
Dave Nelson
I have built a 30x15' layout using beaded foam to cut make the shapes as close to what I wanted as finished and then plaster clothed the hills etc. Then zip textured the plaster cloth, not much mess and very fast and no sag. I cut the final foam with a WS hot wire, no fuss, litle mess.
As correctly noted, construction paper is very flimsy. Like Dave, I used carboard stirps (as Rio showed) to create hills and mountains. I then covered that up with plaster cloth (you can use paper mache). Doing that provides additional durability and covered up the carboard strips. However, unlike Dave, I put Plaster of Paris over the plaster cloth and then painted it once dry.
Good luck!
I'm not clear on how the OPs cardboard strips are arranged.
On my layout I tried the cardboard strip web approach with plaster cloth covering in some areas. Per a Kalmbach book as my reference, I hot glued the strips where woven together. I would think the interlacing and gluing at intersection helps strenght considerably vs only parallel strips. With most areas covered with 2 layers of overlapped plaster cloth the combo is pretty strong. Of course, the cardboard strip spacing affects the strength. My layout is smallish, and my strips probably provide 40% coverage, probably overkill.
I also integrated pink foam layers where I had more height, mainly to try both methods. In both cases the next to top layer was plastercloth and I then added Sculptamold for some texture. Then added rocks. I've yet to detail with dirt, bushes, etc.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I would think construction paper would absorb a lot of water from the plaster and get soft. It's been 20 years since I used plaster and my cardboard lattice half the cardboard strips as in the above pics. To say it another way, I had at least 2" gaps between cardboard strips and I had no sagging using paper towels dipped in hydrocal.
Scrap cardboard is free; with a glue gun and some clothes pins you could add all the support you need.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Seems to me some are making things harder than they have to be.
White glue dries hard but can be softened again with some water. The plaster cloth is probably making the white glue and the construction paper soft. Then it sags, then it hardens again. Adding another layer of wet plaster then softens everything under it. Just consider how much water it takes to be able to put it on with a paint brush.
How are you tinting the plaster? With water based paint?
I cut card board strips approx 3/4" wide. I put them on the layout in a criss cross pattern, not weaved together. Every place the strips cross another strip I put a dab of hot glue. I leave 3-4" spacing between the strips so I have a checker board appearance.
The card board is covered with either paper towels or cut up bed sheets that have been dipped in soupy plaster of paris. I leave it to dry for at least 24 hours then paint it with some latex paint. It get the paint at my local Ace hardware, custom mixed.
( I really need to find out why I can't post pictures anymore )
Hi tbdanny
You need more suport iether fixed or temporary.
Also in your post you state you are only using one layer of plaster cloth I would sugest using three layers laid in oposite directions, then puting the coloured skim coat on top.
As for the dip in the logging /mining camp area don't fill it the camp builders would not, just put a log in it to hold up the edge of the hut if need be or throw a couple of planks across it if its in a path way.
If its a big hollow and it's rained fill it with muddy water with some junk floating in it or just plain fill it with rubish.
Some times with a bit of side ways thinking a scenery issue becomes the thing that can make the scene
Worse case if you can't work round it, fill it up so you can build your scene as orriginally thought out.
Scenery is one area in model railroading that is very fluid and flexable and the result is only wrong if it's don't like it cut it out and start again.
With hard shell the thing is to have the shell thick enough to be mostly self supporting, but it will still need some perminent suport. Temporary suport can be provided with balls of news paper which can be pulled out later if needs be.
regards John
I've used the cardboard strips, covered with plaster cloth. I then give it a skim coat of plaster. Plenty strong!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Hi all,Thank you for all the feedback so far. After reading all the posts, what I'm getting is:- I need to provide more support for the landform- I should reconsider the use of construction paper- The plaster cloth will work being spread directly over the cardboard strips- Paper towels dipped in soupy plaster may also work when placed directly over the cardboard strips.With regards to tinting the plaster, I'm adding food dye to the water when the plaster is being mixed - red, yellow and black until I get the colour I'm after.Thank-you to everyone who's replied. I'll try making these changes for section 4 and see how it goes.
Make a skeleton frame using strips of cardboard boxes. My strips are usually about 4 to 6 inches apart. Hot glue or staple them together. Dip paper towels or napkins into soupy plaster (of Paris) and cover your frame. Add rock molds. Paint with latex paint, sprinkle on first layer of ground cover while paint is still wet. This is the old school method which has been working for people for decades. I think this covered in a recent issue.
j...........
I don't think the construction paper is such a bad idea.
It seems to me thats what is stoping you having a horrible mess on the floor to clean up.
However more support yes.
You can substitute paper towels, news paper etc dipped in thin plaster old "T" shirts or bed sheet works even chux dish cloths as well that's what we used before plaster cloth became easy to get.
You could try ordering a box of plaster bandage from the local chemist, it will be cheaper than geting it from the hobby shop.
Never thought of food colouring as a tinting agent for plaster will have to try that idea myself.
Thanks for the additional input. I've done section 4 of the layout with cardboard strips, so here's how it's looking at the moment:
I've noticed that this is actually a bit easier and more efficient than the old method I was using. It uses less glue, too.
I'm about to start doing the shell over it. Given that I'm pretty much out of plaster cloth, I'll be switching to a product similar to chux cloths for this and section 3. I bought a roll of about 200 of these wipes for about $7 at an auto parts store a few months ago, for just this purpose.
That's looking much more robust. I think you'll be a lot happier with this as it progresses.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I found it gave me a bit more control over how the finished ground form would look. I may actually rip out some (not all) of the shell on section 5 and redo it.
tbdanny,
Question: Have you tested the track with a loco and some cars. The trasition at the top and bottom of the rise look pretty sharp in the picture?
Just wondering.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Bob,
I've run a couple of operating sessions, during which all my locos took trains up that grade without any issues. I think the angle of the photo may make the transition look a bit more abrupt than it is. That siding is leading to a loading area for logs that are being brought down by high wire and truck, so only 18' and 20' log cars will be going up it.
As for how the scenery's coming along, I've got the first layer of plaster-soaked chux down:
There's still a couple of spots I'll have to fill out with plaster, when I put the layer of plaster on it, but it's not as bad as the previous sections.
I took a few photo's underneath to show some support structurs to keep the cardboard from sagging.
Coming along quite nice. I have use the cardboard lattice for some rather substancial hills spanning large areas even w/o any support. The use of a much heavier cardboard from appliances, etc seems to hold.
The only support on this is the 3/8" plywood backing for the rubber rock attachment and a bandsawed 3/4' stock on the backdrop BTW, very nice job riogrande
The only support on this is the 3/8" plywood backing for the rubber rock attachment and a bandsawed 3/4' stock on the backdrop
BTW, very nice job riogrande
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Those landforms are looking impressive!
Thanks again to all for the advice as well.
Here's how my layout is looking now.
Firstly, there's section 5 with the part I redid using the cardboard lattice method (brown on left):
Then there's section 4. Now that it's dried out a bit, it seems that the approach of dying the plaster with food colouring doesn't seem to be as successful as I thought.
The pale brown section in the right is where I accidentally put a bit of a dip in the ground - I'm filling it out with multiple layers of plaster. I think I may have cut the cardboard slightly too long, and that allowed it to sag slightly. Aside from that, I've not had any problems with the cardboard sagging at all.
I've also got the cardboard done for section 3 of the layout, the last one to be done. Sections 1 & 2 were already done with the paper and plaster cloth method.
This is the most complicated of the sections, given the valley for the bridge and the raised section for the logging siding on the right. As such, this was the one that required the most cardboard. I also used some corflute to provide a bit of structure, for the 'landing area' next to the log siding where the trucks and high wire will bring the logs down to be loaded.
I went through a couple of boxes similar to those used for appliance (but smaller), but also ended up using the box my Wii U had come it. It's thinner but denser than the 'appliance box' thickness cardboard, and whatever they've used for the glossy printing on the outside also adds some strength to it. It's probably just as strong as the appliance box type stuff, and I only used it after I'd run out of the other.
Next weekend (this weekend is full of Mother's Day activities), I'll be putting the plaster cloth over this section - very carefully around the bridge.
Flat/ wide expanses do tend to sag even w/ the sturdiest of cardboard, thus that support below. many times i have placed permanent bracing, but added temparary support of just about anything that will work. Using wire or fiberglas screening also needs help from below for the support until the first layer of plaster hardens. All the questionable spots get a 2nd thicker coat for the hardshell. We don't normally place much weight on them, but it should be strong enough for any slip or mishap.
I've got two layers of the chux cloth & plaster on all areas, and I'll be adding a third to some parts.