ahh, thanks for that clarification. I may have missed that earlier. So, it is not an unintended uncoupling problem, but rather the couplers are shorting out the board on the locomotive. Ugh.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain rallison No, though by the third or fourth return I was asking them to exchange for a new one, as the repeat repairs and shipments had taken a toll on the engines' appearance. But if they'd just exchanged for new I would have had the same problems given that the issue at heart was the design of the proto-coupler on the one hand, and the over-amped power supply on the other. Rick, I'm not clear what the issue is with the MTH proto-coupler. How is the proto-coupler part of Brendan's problem? Can you give us a little more detail on this? Rich
rallison No, though by the third or fourth return I was asking them to exchange for a new one, as the repeat repairs and shipments had taken a toll on the engines' appearance. But if they'd just exchanged for new I would have had the same problems given that the issue at heart was the design of the proto-coupler on the one hand, and the over-amped power supply on the other.
No, though by the third or fourth return I was asking them to exchange for a new one, as the repeat repairs and shipments had taken a toll on the engines' appearance. But if they'd just exchanged for new I would have had the same problems given that the issue at heart was the design of the proto-coupler on the one hand, and the over-amped power supply on the other.
Rick, I'm not clear what the issue is with the MTH proto-coupler. How is the proto-coupler part of Brendan's problem? Can you give us a little more detail on this?
Rich,
Not sure if you remember my MTH loco trouble thread from more than a year ago, but I eventually eliminated wiring, auto-reverse, track gauge problems as likely causes of the electrical shorts that were repeatedly frying the PS3 boards on my GP35 and F3 engines.
While MTH was servicing (and in the end, modifying the circuitry of) the GP35 the fourth & final time, I'd noticed that the swing of the rear truck on the F3 (at the time, just back from its third PS3 board replacement) was wide enough to allow it to contact the tiny rubber insulating cup that covers the forward end of the metal solenoid/piston of the proto-coupler. At one point I'd noticed that one of the insulators was worn through; then, looking back at my service records, I found that MTH had replaced the rear proto coupler in two of the service incidents on that loco--noting in one of the write-ups that the insulator was missing. After swapping in the mechanical coupler, I experienced no further shorts on the F3. This indicates to me that--at least on that model--the proto-coupler was likely involved in the short circuits.
That may not be the case for most MTH users--I have some 18" curves that coincide with transitions to steep (4%) grades, and that may have pushed the F3's trucks to the limits of travel. And it is probably not an issue on the GP35 model, as there is more clearance between the rear of the rear truck and the front of the proto-coupler.
In the end, the only thing that stopped the shorts on the GP35 was switching from the DCS Commander to DCC; I think the lower amperage of the NCE PowerCab power supply eliminated all the electrical arcing that was taking place near the frog side of the closure rails of my Atlas 540/541 turnouts.
Since then, both of those MTH engines run fine; a few weeks back I picked up an MTH HO PA-1 (at a price I just couldn't pass up), and it has had zero problems.
I am not familiar with Brendan's loco, so have no idea if it could have the same proto-coupler issue if his layout also has tight curves and steep inclines; but I did mention that to him as a likely source of problems on my MTH F3.
-Rick
Hey Rich - yes, yes, yes the MTH protocouplers are a big problems when it comes to shorting out the engine's controller. It is a design problem.
Independent of that they do not line up exactly with the standard couplers and so they uncouple very easy in certain situations. Mine uncoupled going over a slight seam. By slight I mean really, really slight.
You absolutely need to replace the MTH protocouplers if you want to avoid problems.
Brendan Buschi I spoke with MTH today and they said that they have made a modification to their new engines because of the protocoupler shorting out. The have added a diode to the design. They did not acknowledge any problems with the DCS Commander but they acknowledged that if you use it's power supply with their O gauge trains the track voltage is 18 which is higher than it is on the HO track. I heard the Broadway Limited steam engines have decoder issues - otherwise they are excellent.
I spoke with MTH today and they said that they have made a modification to their new engines because of the protocoupler shorting out. The have added a diode to the design.
They did not acknowledge any problems with the DCS Commander but they acknowledged that if you use it's power supply with their O gauge trains the track voltage is 18 which is higher than it is on the HO track.
I heard the Broadway Limited steam engines have decoder issues - otherwise they are excellent.
BLI manufactures a beautiful steam engine in terms of design, detail, and sound. I have several of them. Regarding the decoder issues with BLI, there really aren't any operationally, but a bug or two has been indentified with the Paragon 2 decoder which is a propietary product of BLI. Prior to the Paragon 2, BLI used 3rd party decoders without any problems.
Were you to purchase a BLI steam engine, I doubt that you would encounter any issues because the bug(s) only occurs in advanced decoder programming, and the workaround is simple. If you decide to purchase another steamer as you go forward, give BLI some serious consideration.
Thanks Rich - worth noting.
rallison richhotrain rallison No, though by the third or fourth return I was asking them to exchange for a new one, as the repeat repairs and shipments had taken a toll on the engines' appearance. But if they'd just exchanged for new I would have had the same problems given that the issue at heart was the design of the proto-coupler on the one hand, and the over-amped power supply on the other. Rick, I'm not clear what the issue is with the MTH proto-coupler. How is the proto-coupler part of Brendan's problem? Can you give us a little more detail on this? Rich Rich, Not sure if you remember my MTH loco trouble thread from more than a year ago, but I eventually eliminated wiring, auto-reverse, track gauge problems as likely causes of the electrical shorts that were repeatedly frying the PS3 boards on my GP35 and F3 engines.
Brendan Buschi [...] You are probably the most knowledgeable person out there when it comes to problems with MTH's ho engines.
[...]
You are probably the most knowledgeable person out there when it comes to problems with MTH's ho engines.
I doubt it, but even if so--I wish I hadn't gained that knowledge the hard way!
Nevertheless, I'm very glad to hear that something good came of it given that MTH has made that wiring change/added diode standard.
rallison Brendan Buschi You are probably the most knowledgeable person out there when it comes to problems with MTH's ho engines.
Brendan Buschi You are probably the most knowledgeable person out there when it comes to problems with MTH's ho engines.
Hey Rick - unfortunately that's often the case.
Hey Rich, everything is not either black or white. If someone gets an infection, we treat them. The MTH locomotives are very good. It would be a shame to avoid them when you can just replace the protocouplers they come with with the Kadee couplers they also come with.
The DCS Commander may be just fine with a smaller power source than the one it comes with.
Brendan Buschi Hey Rich, everything is not either black or white. If someone gets an infection, we treat them. The MTH locomotives are very good. It would be a shame to avoid them when you can just replace the protocouplers they come with with the Kadee couplers they also come with. The DCS Commander may be just fine with a smaller power source than the one it comes with.
I just fail to understand how an MTH locomotive can be considered very good when the buyer has to replace the featured proto-couplers, and the decoder board fries without explanation. And, the DCS Commander is just fine so long as the buyer replaces the supplied power source with a different one.
Hey Rich, you have mis-stated what I have tried to communicate. There is an explanation for why the MTH controllers have fried. It is the protocoupler. They give you the replacement protocoupler when you buy the engine. Just install it.
I am very critical of MTH. I believe they are very irresponsible. I wish they would clean up their act. If people want to avoid their products because of that, I wouldn't argue with them. Maybe that's what it will take to motivate them.
I just call it as I see it. In my case, I want good locomotives. I can get them from MTH if I swap out the installed couplers with the extra couplers they give me.
I have owned a lot of cars over the the course of 70 years. Some have been better than others. Some I wish I had never bought. In 2010 I bought a Prius. It's a great car and I love it. I get almost 50 mpg and have not had a single problem. I replace the oil every 10,000 miles and rotate the tires every 6,000 miles.
About a month after I got the car there was a flood of news stories about the accelerator sticking to the floor and causing accidents. My car was one of the ones that was recalled. I took it into the dealer and they did a software upgrade and that was that. Did I like having my new car recalled? No! Would I buy another Prius? Yes!
I'm not sure I can explain my postion any better.
Yesterday I ordered 3 circuit breakers from Tony's Train Exchange. They are made by DCC Specialties. I ordered the PSX1 for my layout and 2 PSX-ARSC units. The PSX-ARSC units are both circuit breakers and auto-reversers. I will use one with each of my reversing loops. The SC in ARSC stands for snap coil. I got that vesion because I have Atlas snap switch machines. I will have the option of automating the turnouts as well.
I got these to use along with my brand new NCE PowerCab. I have learned enough in a short time to know that sometimes you have to take extra precautions. Should I have avoided buying any DCC controller that did not come with the kind of circuit breakers I bought at Tony's? If I did, there wouldn't have been any available. Are they needed? Yes!
One of the things I am rapidly learning is that model railroading is an expensive pursuit if done correctly. Read these blogs. The folks here, mostly guys, are constantly adding to and subtracting from what they have. There are a numerous posts about replacing couplers on new engines with Kadees.
I could make a case that everybody here reminds me of when I was a teenager with my first car. When I got together with my friends we would examine each other's cars and get involved in all sorts of things when it came to modifications. If I learned anything about model railroaders, it is that they are hopeless tinkerers. Model railroaders may just be teenagers at heart.
Brendan Buschi Hey Rich, you have mis-stated what I have tried to communicate. There is an explanation for why the MTH controllers have fried. It is the protocoupler. They give you the replacement protocoupler when you buy the engine. Just install it.
I just fail to understand how an MTH locomotive can be considered very good when the buyer has to replace the featured proto-couplers, and the decoder board fries unexpectedly.
My point is that there are buyers out there who consider an MTH locomotive at least in part to have the benefit of the featured proto-couplers. The purchase price of the MTH locomotive has to reflect the inclusion of these couplers. So, to avoid shorting out the decoder board, the buyer has to replace the featured proto-couplers. My conclusion is that you are not getting what you are paying for.
That said, I will rest my case. I just see it as one more reason not to buy an MTH locomotive. If this problem is as widespread as it appears to be, MTH should post a warning on the box or eliminate the proto-couplers altogether.
Hey Rich, I agree with everything you have just said. I agree with all my heart with what you have just said.
I put up this topic to share what I am doing and get the benefit of the advice of people who have much more experience than I do. I hope it might prove helpful to others as well. That is why I wish to be very clear about what I am saying and what I am not saying. I'm trying to deal in facts, not biases.
I started reading about DCC last night. I got 2 books on just that topic. I understand what I am reading because I have a background in IT. I was a programmer and I designed networks.
I wish I had never gotten the DCS Commander and went with DCC instead. That was not the case and all the negative comments I got in regard to DCS were not helpful either.
The kind of advice someone needs before the fact is different from the kind of advice they need after the fact. I needed the after the fact kind. I couldn't undo the fact that I had gotten a DCS Commander.
If anyone ever asks me what kind of HO controller they should get I will tell them to look at DCC. I can even tell them why I believe that. If someone who has gotten a DCS controller asks me for advice I will tell them what I know.
richhotrain [...] [How can] an MTH locomotive can be considered very good when the buyer has to replace the featured proto-couplers, and the decoder board fries unexpectedly? [...] That said, I will rest my case. I just see it as one more reason not to buy an MTH locomotive. If this problem is as widespread as it appears to be, MTH should post a warning on the box or eliminate the proto-couplers altogether. Rich
[How can] an MTH locomotive can be considered very good when the buyer has to replace the featured proto-couplers, and the decoder board fries unexpectedly?
Well, I should resist, but I can't, Rich:
When one can pick up an MTH DC/DCC/DCS compatible HO Alco PA-1 for <$150, and run it with the proto-couplers on serious layouts with 24" min radius curves utilizing quality turnouts with live frogs and scale-like grades of 1-2% and, as a result of those things, have zero problems--to me that seems to qualify as a very good engine value in today's market. (Of course YM, as they say, MV.) And I think that's precisely the type of model railroader--the serious scale railroader--MTH is targeting with their top line of engines.
I think my problems arose because my budget and available space limited how my minimum preferred layout could be implemented--so my layout includes some 18" curves, run-of-the-mill Atlas snap-switch turnouts, dead frogs, and 4% grades--and it appears those limitations revealed a series of design limitations in MTH's engines and power supply/control system.
(Most folks with layouts like mine and interested in DCS and/or MTH's specific product offerings would probably choose one of their Ready-to-Run sets, and those folks would never have had the problems I did.)
Ironically*, on my layout, the BLI and Walthers P2k locos I've accquired since switching to DCC lose power and halt on the through-route of my dead-frog Walthers/Shinohara double-crossover when they are operated much below half-speed (and in the case of the P2k loco, it halts there at ANY speed); whereas all three of my MTH locos will glide across those frogs at a crawl, because MTH built useful keep-alives into their circuitry. Should BLI and Walthers sell their locos with a disclaimer? A case could be made, I suppose.
To me it sounds like MTH is rectifying the loco circuitry problems going forward (and for anyone who, like Brendan, has problems with the old circuit), so there isn't much more for them to do on that account.
OTOH, you and I are in violent agreement that MTH, and their dealers, should have a disclaimer on the existing DCS Commander (and associated marketing materials/websites) indicating it should not be used with the Z-1000 power supply on HO layouts and, going forward, ought to sell a version of the Commander/power supply package that is specific to HO, and having 1) a power supply with a more suitable power rating, and 2) a built-in, fast circuit-breaker rated below the level of current that will fry a PS3 board.
Will they? Dunno. Given that MTH has not issued a new HO product catalog since the 2015 issue in late 2014/early 2015, my hunch is they may be retreating from the HO market. Or perhaps, given the reported problems (and associated level of repair/support services needed in the larger HO market) they may be taking the time to re-engineer their PSx boards and power/control systems to correct design shortcomings like the ones Brendan and I experienced. I hope so.
Ultimately, I hope we all have as many manufacturers as possible (and even the odd proprietary system like DCS, even also too!) for we hobbyists to chose from going forward; and that, where there are shortcomings in goods or services, we discuss them openly and fairly in a spirit of ongoing improvement/enjoyment for all. No manufacturer (or control/power standard) is the be-all end-all solution for everyone; nor are most** unsuitable for anyone.
Sorry for going overboard & giving my $0.22 worth but, like I say, it's just MHO and worth everything you paid for it.
Best to all, and now stepping back behind the curtain,
* Yes, I know I'm using ironically in an incorrect way here. But I'm misusing it ironically. Heh.
**I would think that those who produce products unsuitable for anyone won't stay in the market long. ;-)
That's a great post Rick. You have really helped me and I think anyone who reads this will benefit from it.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the discussion about steam engines is their respective abilities to withstand handling by Brendan's young grandchildren.
For example, how easily do the the side rods bend? If a particular locomotive has to be handled with great care in order to avoid damage then personally I don't think that engine would be suitable for Brendan's needs. I guess all steamers (all locomotives in fact) need to be handled with care to some extent. My point is that Brendan doesn't need or want to spend a lot of time at the workbench sorting out binding drive mechanisms.
Brendan: Even if the side rods are not an issue, I would suggest that you might want to stay away from things like articulated engines, or even any engines with trailing trucks. My reasoning is that you will want something which is easy to put back on the tracks. Derailments will happen. In my mind, the kids should be able to put the locomotives/cars back on the track themselves. Perhaps you don't agree.
More of my worth. Actually, since I had two separate thoughts (amazing!), it should be !
Regards
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hey Dave, I hesitate to tell you what happened today, but I am into full disclosure. I got the new steam engine in and put it on the tracks and turned on the power and it sort of hummed a little, but it did not move or do a thing other than hum.
So later this week, I'll be traveling up to bring it back. I still have the DCS Commander set up and it wouldn't run in either DC or DCS mode.
So I think you offer good advice. However, maybe it's me who shouldn't be allowed to touch the locomotives.
I always appreciate all comments.
So does anybody know a good therapist for model railroaders?
Brendan:
Do you have the Power Cab system set up yet? I suspect not.
My suggestion would be to wait until you have the Power Cab up and running and then test the locomotive on that. It is entirely possible that there is something wrong with the DCS controller.
Hey Dave, You are correct. The DCS Commander has both DC and DCS modes. It won't run in either mode, but my DC locomotive runs in the DC mode.
However, I will try what you suggest. Thanks.
Hey Dave, I tried it with the DCC controller and it wouldn't move. The bell and whistle rang, but that was it.
Brendan!
You are certainly having more than your fair share of problems!!
Before going any further, I would sit down with the manuals and read the parts about selecting addresses and resetting decoders. Normally with the Power Cab if you haven't selected the right address you will get engine sounds but I don't think you will get anything else. Sorry but I can't help with the MTH protocalls.
One small quirk with the Power Cab is that when you want to select locomotive address '3', which is the default address that every DCC locomotive comes with from the factory, you hit 'Select Loco' and then hit '3' only. Don't put any zeros in front of the '3'. The confusing part is that the Power Cab display will show the locomotive address as '003'.
Hopefully the guys with MTH experience can offer more help.
Brendan, don't give up! As I said, you have had more than enough problems but I'm sure you have the where with all to work through them.
hon30critter Brendan! You are certainly having more than your fair share of problems!! Before going any further, I would sit down with the manuals and read the parts about selecting addresses and resetting decoders. Normally with the Power Cab if you haven't selected the right address you will get engine sounds but I don't think you will get anything else. Sorry but I can't help with the MTH protocalls. One small quirk with the Power Cab is that when you want to select locomotive address '3', which is the default address that every DCC locomotive comes with from the factory, you hit 'Select Loco' and then hit '3' only. Don't put any zeros in front of the '3'. The confusing part is that the Power Cab display will show the locomotive address as '003'. Hopefully the guys with MTH experience can offer more help. Brendan, don't give up! As I said, you have had more than enough problems but I'm sure you have the where with all to work through them. Dave
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/225350/2509559.aspx
Hey Dave, Thanks. I tried what you said and I couldn't get it to work. I'm not giving up.
Thanks Rich, I appreciate you finding this. It is exactly what I am experiencing. I will deal with this when the dealer opens today.
I find myself repeating "That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger." to myself at odd moments lately.
richhotrain I don't own an NCE Power Cab, and I sure don't own any MTH locos, but I started Googling to see if others have problems running MTH locos with the Power Cab. I came up with this one, and it sounds eerily similar to Brendan's dilemma. Here's hoping that he fares better. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/225350/2509559.aspx Rich
I don't own an NCE Power Cab, and I sure don't own any MTH locos, but I started Googling to see if others have problems running MTH locos with the Power Cab. I came up with this one, and it sounds eerily similar to Brendan's dilemma. Here's hoping that he fares better.
And this story can go on and on Rich. Between a friend and me we purchased five MTH SD70 ACe the first run. Three Proto Sound3 and two DCC ready. 4 of these were faulty on arrival. Out of them 2 of the Proto Sound would not retain their programming, returning to default setting as soon as they were removed from the layout. They were returned for service and the turn around time was 8 weeks along with $25 shipping. With the two DCC ready they ran a total 30 feet and then they fried their decoders. The worst part is MTH did not reply to my email requesting service, I was totally ignored. I am now the proud owner of two SD70 ACe gatering dust on my work bench. Will I buy MTH again NO will I recommend MTH NO. MTH has no clue what is customer service.
Jack W.
Question..... Where are all the horses buried that have been beaten to death?
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Okay - my dealer is refunding me for the 2 locomotives and the DCS Commander. I am turning a new page.
Brendan Buschi Okay - my dealer is refunding me for the 2 locomotives and the DCS Commander. I am turning a new page.
Hey Rich, so what about diesels?