Two Crossing Qs Pls

[kasskaboose]

Before ballasting the track and 25 deg HO Atlas crossing, I started pushing a couple of freight cars through the area.  One of them periodically derails.  Is there a way to smoothly transition between the crossing and code 83 ME track?  The tracks connecting the crossing are straight. Does it make sense to have the cars crawl through the crossing area to prevent future derailments?  I also plan to make one track flat (instead of slightly elevated) and nailed down to keep things smooth and check

The Atlas car's weight is to NMRA standards as are the 33' metal wheels.  Perhaps me pushing it through is the culprit.  I might be pushing it harder/faster than an actual loco.

Is there any type of signal or lighting for consists to use at the crossing or does the lower priority line yield to the higher one?

You folks are just dandy for all the help!

[mlehman]

Is the crossing code 83?

Where the crossing connects to the track leading to it, is there anything to feel along the inside or top of the rail that isn't smooth, like a burr or misalignment?

Have you checked the flangeways and gauge with a NMRA gauge to ensure they are right?

IIRC, the Atlas crossing has plastic, insulated frogs? Sometimes when these are assembled, the plastic and rail won't line up quite right. A light stroke of two with a file can smooth things, just don't keep filing and make things too wide, etc. Keep checking with the NMRA gauge.

Typically, the second RR that arrives and has a need to cross another pays for it and the costs of any signaling or interlocking. The first RR usually controls that system. It can vary from a Stop sign on a gate that swings out to block traffic (sometimes nothing if on an industrial spur, etc) all the way up to a signal tower and interlocking for a busy line.

[dknelson]

If it is always the same car that derails, then I'd really try to resolve the issue before ballasting.  Have you tested the crossing itself with the NMRA gauge to make sure the flangeways don't have some bit of obstruction?  Does the car derail on both paths of the crossing or only one -- and does it derail in all four possible directions?  Is there a chance a bit of a kink was introduced where the crossing meets the straight track? 

Sometimes with your finger on the top of the car you can "feel" the problem as much as see the derailment.  That can help identify precisely where the issue is.

I assume from your post that you tested the wheels for gauge -- but did you also give the car the 'squint your eyes as it rolls down the track toward you' test to look for wheel wobble?  You might even want to try swapping out the trucks on the offending car temporarily to see if different trucks resolve the problem.

The various ways railroads deal with rights of priority and signals at crossings are many and varied.  One "manual" way is for a swinging gate or "smash board" to protect the crossing, giving priority to the dominating railroad or more important line, and the dispatcher or operator has to give permission to move the gate or board.  That could create interesting operations on a model railroad and another way to slow things down in a realistic way.

Dave Nelson

[peahrens]

I'd say defer ballasting until the pushing issue is solved as well as running awhile to ensure trouble free in that area.  I suggest also keep testing and more closely observe the derailing; i.e. does it begin at the track joints or at certain place(s) within the crossover.  You may be able to pinpoint the problem.  Plus check with a NMRA gauge.

I had trouble with a series of 3 Atlas code 83 90-degree crossings.  I believe there were quality issues there, as solving the problem required filing the flangeways to more opening.  I recall width, not depth, was the issue but at this point not certain.  It did solve the problem.  If I'd known, I'd have bought another brand crossing.  I was happy with the flex track, used other brand turnouts.

[cowman]

Is it always the same car  in the same direction?  Have you mixed up the order and direction of your cars as they go through the crossing?  I have found that at times coupler swing, if not free can throw a car off.  Two adjacent cars with only slightly tight couplers may derail, where as if they are not together, there is enough swing so all goes well.  Yours could be binding from the previous curve enough so that the pressure is forcing one off.

Also, check the coupler trip pin.  I have had a couple that go through most turnoouts without a problem, but may hang down just enouth to catch on only one spot on the layout.

Good luck,

Richard

[MisterBeasley]

cowman

Also, check the coupler trip pin. I have had a couple that go through most turnoouts without a problem, but may hang down just enouth to catch on only one spot on the layout.

I'm inclined to agree with cowman.  A crossing has a lot of material for a trip pin to catch on.  And, the fact that you have this problem when pushing the car, rather than pulling a train, makes it even more likely to cause a derailment.

[kasskaboose]

dknelson

If it is always the same car that derails, then I'd really try to resolve the issue before ballasting.  Have you tested the crossing itself with the NMRA gauge to make sure the flangeways don't have some bit of obstruction?  Does the car derail on both paths of the crossing or only one -- and does it derail in all four possible directions?  Is there a chance a bit of a kink was introduced where the crossing meets the straight track? 

Sometimes with your finger on the top of the car you can "feel" the problem as much as see the derailment.  That can help identify precisely where the issue is.

I assume from your post that you tested the wheels for gauge -- but did you also give the car the 'squint your eyes as it rolls down the track toward you' test to look for wheel wobble?  You might even want to try swapping out the trucks on the offending car temporarily to see if different trucks resolve the problem.

Dave Nelson

Dave,

Thanks for the response.  I do need to visually check the car.  Seeing the derailment is far different than hearing it.  The first thing is getting the track secure and walk my fingers across the entire crossing to feel for anything unusual.

[kasskaboose]

MisterBeasley

 

cowman

Also, check the coupler trip pin. I have had a couple that go through most turnoouts without a problem, but may hang down just enouth to catch on only one spot on the layout.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with cowman.  A crossing has a lot of material for a trip pin to catch on.  And, the fact that you have this problem when pushing the car, rather than pulling a train, makes it even more likely to cause a derailment.

 

Thanks guys for bringing up the trip pin.  Perhaps it hangs down a bit and snags on a piece of track.  I never thought that that crossovers have a lot of potential areas for derailments.  No question that I should have the cars go slowly through the area given the possible issues. 

Thankfully, I think that bending a trip pin upward is quite easy with pliers.  I read that some folks even cut them entirely.  Removing them is not feasible since I have a magnet in the yard.

[MisterBeasley]

kasskaboose

Thankfully, I think that bending a trip pin upward is quite easy with pliers. I read that some folks even cut them entirely. Removing them is not feasible since I have a magnet in the yard.

I have the Kadee "trip pin pliers" that I use for that task.  Honestly, they are a "luxury" tool as the job can probably be done just as well with a pair of needle-nose pliers.  I've used these a lot, though, and have had no trouble applying the right bend.

Of course, I've only done this to genuine Kadee couplers.  I would expect the plastic ones to break if I tried it with them.

[kasskaboose]

MisterBeasley

 

kasskaboose

Thankfully, I think that bending a trip pin upward is quite easy with pliers. I read that some folks even cut them entirely. Removing them is not feasible since I have a magnet in the yard.

 

 

I have the Kadee "trip pin pliers" that I use for that task.  Honestly, they are a "luxury" tool as the job can probably be done just as well with a pair of needle-nose pliers. 

Call me cheap but I use regular pliers for the trip pin. For some strange reason, I saw that one of the wheels sometimes rises up off the track when pushing the car through the crossover.  Any suggestions?

[DougL]

"one of the wheels rises up..."

not likely: the flange on the wheel is extra-large diameter

very likely: the gauge of the wheels on that axel is wide and out of tolerance. Measure with an NMRA gauge and slie the wheels on the axle until thwy are within tolerance.

[MisterBeasley]

kasskaboose

For some strange reason, I saw that one of the wheels sometimes rises up off the track when pushing the car through the crossover. Any suggestions?

Well, it's rising up for a reason, unless, of course, the track is dipping.  Have you put a straightedge across the whole whole thing, track-to-crossing-to-track, to check for kinks and issues of vertical alignment?  I'd imagine you've already checked the crossing and the offending truck for gauge.

I had one Atlas crossing on my layout.  It actually had an internal short and it was impossible to run an engine over it.  I bought a Walthers replacement for it and I've been happy with that one, no issues at all.

[kasskaboose]

DougL

very likely: the gauge of the wheels on that axel is wide and out of tolerance. Measure with an NMRA gauge and slie the wheels on the axle until thwy are within tolerance.

Is there a special technique for getting the wheels to align with the NMRA gauge?  The wheels were in alignment, but this is good to know for the future.

[BATMAN]

I have had to take a file to one of my Walther crossovers and a few T/Os and the problems were quickly solved. If it is only one car and only sometimes happens, check to make sure the wheels are round. I have had two out of round wheels on rolling stock over the years. They were only a problem on T/Os and crossovers and only if they hit at the right spot. Try just running the truck alone over the trouble spot and put a caliper on the wheels to measure them if it doesn't feel right.

[DougL]

Nothing special to making wheelsets fit the NMRA gauge. Push or pull on both wheels, sometimes twist back and forth to get them moving. Or purchase a few replacement wheelsets. Or find a set in-gauge from an otherwise scrap car.