So I have the following layout. Passenger trains will run on the outside, freight on the inside (generally). I need some ideas for yards and/or industries I can add to this layout based on the benchwork I have laid down.I had planned one 2x2' corner section to be a small town with a couple of department stores facing. Prototype is (very loosely) Union Pacific.
Baseboard is 6ft x 8ft, hole in the center is 2ft by 4ft.
Outside loop is 24", inside is 22", turnouts are #6.
Nothing is nailed down, it's all loose, held down with cloth staples in the foam temporarily. I haven't laid roadbed either.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
This response assumes HO.
If it's all working well now pinned down, then that's fine. But you've got a couple of things that may pose problems later. The double-crossover arrangment creates potentially troublesome S-curves through some routes.
The potential problem is similar to this sketch
Also, if you have 22"- and 24"-radius curves with the same center and thus only 2" between them (center-to-center), some equipment combinations may sideswipe. Most folks find that they need broader track-to-track spacing (2½" or more) for curves this tight in HO.
As far as adding spurs and a yard, those can come off anywhere that you don't create sharp S-curves. But if you can add a bit to the outside of your benchwork (or re-arrange tracks), placing a yard outside the ovals might allow it to be longer and thus more useful.
Best of luck with your layout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
It is indeed HO.
I didn't want to eat up all the available straightaways on the layout with crossovers. I could potentially make the S curves more gentle by expanding the track toward the edge in one direction, but that seems less than ideal.
I'll revise the layout and post another picture.
Hi fieryturbo
Well with the scissors cross over where it is that sugests to me where the passenger depot is.
You have a double track main line use it as a double track main line one track up main the other track down main.
So freight and passengers on both.
I would think the first order of business would be a loco depot of some sort
So if we consider the scissors crossover to be the pasanger depot then somewhere there is where the enterance to the loco depot will be.
So that needs to be arranged to allow acsess to both main line tracks how the loco depot is laid out will depend on the depot's size loco's to be serviced is it a major depot or just a local running depot.
You may also want to concider a couple of coach sidings in the same area so they can be cleaned and serviced between runs stabled over night for first run, and have an express depot at the back of the small coach yard.
So the express cars can be seperated and shunted to the express depot for unloading and delivery into town.
You will note I have kept all the point work in roughly the same area.
That makes it easy to keep an eye on.
Where ever you enter and leave a yard you will need to have acsess to both main lines in and out but all yard work should be able to be done without blocking the main lines.
Without really knowing what you are doing thats the best I can come up with, untill there is something a bit more concrete to work with.
You are going to have areas that at first seem a bit crowded but that is often the way, real railroads only have a certain space to work in as well so just like us have to make the best of what they have.
You don't mention the period you are working with knowing that could also be helpfull
regards John
John Busby You don't mention the period you are working with knowing that could also be helpfull regards John
Hey John, those are some very helpful tips. I'm modeling something that's late 1960s-80s, mostly Union Pacific, and all diesel. I've also revised the layout to give better gaps between the tracks as suggested earlier in the thread, and stretch out the S curves a bit more.
Hello All,
Check out the Kalmbach Publishing series of modeling industries.
This might give you some ideas to work from.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnit Hello All, Check out the Kalmbach Publishing series of modeling industries. This might give you some ideas to work from. Hope this helps.
Thanks, I will do that.
Anyone have suggestions on the changes I made?
fieryturbo John Busby You don't mention the period you are working with knowing that could also be helpfull regards John Hey John, those are some very helpful tips. I'm modeling something that's late 1960s-80s, mostly Union Pacific, and all diesel. I've also revised the layout to give better gaps between the tracks as suggested earlier in the thread, and stretch out the S curves a bit more.
One suggestion I had is putting a turnout at either the top or bottom of the layout (where the track is straight) for a siding. There are plenty of possibilities for modeling large industries in small spaces. Reading the Kalmbach book on industirse is a great idea. I have the 1st one and learned many things, including you don't need a large structure footprint for an industry.
A diverging turnout at the end of a curve as you have on your new plan can create a potentially troublesome S-curve as shown in the image at the left.
The alternative arrangement at right creates no S-curve and allows for a longer diverging track in many cases. Note that most real-life railroads avoided having the mainline path passing through the diverging route of a turnout, but if the turnout is broad enough to match up well with the mainline minimum radius, this can be a handy trick on the model.
cuyama A diverging turnout at the end of a curve as you have on your new plan can create a potentially troublesome S-curve as shown in the image at the left. The alternative arrangement at right creates no S-curve and allows for a longer diverging track in many cases. Note that most real-life railroads avoided having the mainline path passing through the diverging route of a turnout, but if the turnout is broad enough to match up well with the mainline minimum radius, this can be a handy trick on the model.
Alright, I've taken your advice into account and rearranged the yard. it's not quite done, as I may add another outside track to the left. I've tried to leave ample spacing in the yard between sidings.
As far as industries go, I ordered the 3 Kalmbach industry books via interlibrary loan, so I expect those will be here in a week or so.
I suppose it's also worth mentioning that I have a DDA40X and several 85' passenger cars that will go on the layout, and I plan getting the Scaletrains Big Blows sometime in the near future. The D-D wheelsets on the DDA40X seem to be okay over the turnouts.
The tracks you have drawn as a yard will be very awkward to operate and are not an efficient use of space or turnouts. I'd suggest reading John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation before finalizing your plan.
cuyama The tracks you have drawn as a yard will be very awkward to operate and are not an efficient use of space or turnouts. I'd suggest reading John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation before finalizing your plan.
I've ordered it from the library, thanks.
Well I got Industries from Along the Tracks #3 through the interlibrary loan. This book has some spotty and very random coverage of its subjects. The part on the cement plant is much more detailed than that of the team tracks and transloading section, which concludes with "There are so many possibilities for modeling transload centers that it's impossible to list potential models and arrangements." What is that supposed to mean? The author is just lazy? The book itself *looks* good with lots of color photos of random things, which don't really give any additional insight into the subject.
I hope the other 3 are better. I'm so glad I checked this out of the library instead of paying for it.
fieryturbo"There are so many possibilities for modeling transload centers that it's impossible to list potential models and arrangements." What is that supposed to mean?
Exactly what it says. There are thousands of prototype examples that have existed and some that still do exist. They cannot possibly list every single example (the book would not be portable, and it would cost to much to print). So you get a generic article on the subject.
Team tracks are the simplest of industries. Literaly all you need for a team track is a short spur or 2 (long enough for 1 or 2 cars) on level ground and open space on one side of the track or both for the car to be unloaded. They tell you right in the words that you can load/unload nearly anything from a teamtrack.
Go to satellite view at the following cooridinates:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8414418,-86.9996626,151m/data=!3m1!1e3
There you will find an INRD (Indiana Railroad) reload center (modern version of team track), this one handles lumber for a local lumberyard in Odon, Indiana.
fieryturboThe book itself *looks* good with lots of color photos of random things, which don't really give any additional insight into the subject.
Every photo in the transloading chapter showed a different example (some more than one in the same photo) of comodities that are/were transported by rail. Some of them even tell you how the products were transfered from road to rail or vice versa. Im not really sure what you are looking for here. If you have specific questions you might try asking them here in the forums.
fieryturboI hope the other 3 are better.
The other 3 Industries along the tracks books contain about the same level of info as the cement plant chapter. If you are looking for specific data about a specific named industry (ie SD Warren Paper Co, Westbrook, ME), you will not find it in these books.
John Armstrongs book that was recommended to you is a great rescource for learning how to plan a model railroad. It does not contain specific track plans for you to copy, rather how to design a railroad that will operate reliably (not putting in S curves, separation between parallel tracks, passing sidings, yards and engine terminals etc).
The late Andy Sperandeo also wrote an excellent book called The Model Railroaders Guide to Freight Yards. It specifically talks about how to design a freight yard for model railroad operations.
fieryturbo cuyama A diverging turnout at the end of a curve as you have on your new plan can create a potentially troublesome S-curve as shown in the image at the left. The alternative arrangement at right creates no S-curve and allows for a longer diverging track in many cases. Note that most real-life railroads avoided having the mainline path passing through the diverging route of a turnout, but if the turnout is broad enough to match up well with the mainline minimum radius, this can be a handy trick on the model. Alright, I've taken your advice into account and rearranged the yard. it's not quite done, as I may add another outside track to the left. I've tried to leave ample spacing in the yard between sidings. As far as industries go, I ordered the 3 Kalmbach industry books via interlibrary loan, so I expect those will be here in a week or so. I suppose it's also worth mentioning that I have a DDA40X and several 85' passenger cars that will go on the layout, and I plan getting the Scaletrains Big Blows sometime in the near future. The D-D wheelsets on the DDA40X seem to be okay over the turnouts.
Couple of questions. What is the area of the space you are putting your layout in? Can you walk around the layout or are there unreachable areas? And what brand of track/what rail size (code 100, 83, or 70) are you using?
Are you planning on using DC for train control or DCC?
BMMECNYC fieryturbo "There are so many possibilities for modeling transload centers that it's impossible to list potential models and arrangements." What is that supposed to mean? Exactly what it says. There are thousands of prototype examples that have existed and some that still do exist. They cannot possibly list every single example (the book would not be portable, and it would cost to much to print). So you get a generic article on the subject.
fieryturbo "There are so many possibilities for modeling transload centers that it's impossible to list potential models and arrangements." What is that supposed to mean?
It says, "There are so many possibilities for modeling transload centers that it's impossible to list potential models and arrangements." as in, ANY potential models or arrangements. Unlike the cement plant, it doesn't even give a single photo from above (like the coordinates you linked on Google Maps) or a likeness (like the cement plant drawing.)
I requested the freight yard book. the rest are already on their way.
I cannot walk around the entire layout, but I can walk around the top, bottom, and right hand sections. There are no sections I cannot reach. The blank spot in the center is a hole. The two 2x2' center pieces are lift-outs, so the operator is in the center. I'm using Code 83 sectional track. The layout space is 6ft wide x 8ft deep. The layout will be DCC.
I have been following this project and agree with cuyama that the redesigned yard is not efficient, very little space for the industries to be placed, and way too many crossovers. It seems that everything is being placed in one area. Putting sidings on the right side of the plan, even extending around to the top and bottom of the plan would give you a lot more space to install your industries, along with a simpler siding setup on the left side.
The yard isn't redesigned, it's just whatever I came up with. I was just trying to make a siding that can hold a lot of cars/locomotives. I'll post back here once I've read the books.
fieryturboI can walk around the top, bottom, and right hand sections
Then it might make sense to flip the design so that the yard (when you are ready to incorporate it) is along the right side where you may reach it without ducking under.
*shrug* yeah maybe. The duck under is where I plan to mainly be running my layout from though.
fieryturbo:
Your yard certainly offers lots of opportunities for switching cars around, but I think it lacks enough space for actually parking cars or cuts of cars while you are building your trains.
Here are a couple of suggestions for your yard. They are almost the same. the first one has one additional track connected to the mainline. There are certainly possibilities for improvement, like perhaps another cross-over in the top of the yard:
I am using 3rdPlanIt to design the track plans and I am using Peco code 100 track. Note that there are several double curved turnouts. The minimum radius is just over 18" which admittedly presents a problem for your 85' passenger cars so the track plans may not be of any use to you as they are currently laid out. Hopefully they will give you some ideas.
Regards
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
i have a different idea of fun then most but my layout is mostly city reality related. I built a chemical plant emitting pollution land air water etc. I built a landfill of 3 pits and river coverts for this pollution. how about a oil refinery or a ashphalt plant or cement plant or a rock quarry or a coal mine. i would check train swap meets for built models that save time cost etc and are pre weathered. the faller cement plant is also a nice piece and moderatley priced.
fieryturboUnlike the cement plant, it doesn't even give a single photo from above (like the coordinates you linked on Google Maps) or a likeness (like the cement plant drawing.)
I counted 1 on page 33, 1 on page 35, 2 on page 36, 2 on page 37 the rest could be (some are) classified as "team tracks", but most of the color photos are transload facilities in one form or another. A "transload facilility" is a section of track on which a railcar is parked and its contents are transfered to a truck the other way around. Litterally can be modeled with one turnout and a section of track long enough to park a car and a road vehicle next to it. The more complex version of the modern team track (reload or transload facility) includes a building or container for storage of the commodity handled. They only provided photos of the simple version, because transloading specific commodities is covered elsewhere within the series.
Enough about the books though, back to the track plan. Im working on something in RR track (a track design software). Im using code 83 track and attempting to get you 24" radius (for all main lines), however I am finding that difficult and fitting in turnouts. Are you opposed to trying your hand at flex track? The reason I ask is because in some cases it is cheaper to lay long sections and easier as one piece than it is to splice together lots of sectional pieces (I understand you already have some, and those can be used, and some curves are easier to lay with flex track, ie those off of turnouts).
While you are at it check out the NMRA Standards and Recommended practices here: http://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices
S-7, S-8 and RP-11 are a good place to start. RP 20.1 will be more usefull once you get the layout up and running.
Either way, even though I may seem confrontational, BMMECNYC, I do appreciate the help. I have the books in front of me, and I've gone through them a bit. I've given myself longer yards for both car storage and building trains. I've also got some spurs on the right side of the layout for some basic yet-undefined industries. I hope I'm "getting there" at least. Nothing is set in stone.
I have something I'm thinking about that's concerning me more than the trackplan now though - how am I going to operate my lift-out sections? I devised the following. though I am not sure if the foam will wear well in this configuration, and I know I will need to back the foam(it being 1") for the lift-out sections at least to be able to put up with being lifted out on a semi-regular basis. Noise may also be a factor in those sections. I'm really not sure what to do at this point:
The black section is the open space, but the lower and upper center sections are supposed to lift out so I can move into the center to do operation. I'm young-ish (36) so crawling under them is not an issue so far, but if my dad comes by, I'd really like that option open for the lift-out so he can enjoy what I've built.
If you want to reinforce your foam scenery base you might consider using some fiberglass around the edges. A couple of layers of fiberglass cloth with the proper resin will make a very strong surface. However, be warned that you can't just apply the fiberglass directly on top of the foam or the foam will dissolve instantly. You need to put in a barrier layer between the fiberglass and the foam. Newspaper will work. You can glue it to the foam with acrylic paint and then paint over the newspaper with another coat to seal it. Use a mask when sanding the fiberglass! Pay attention to the instructions for mixing the resin with the hardener or you will have a colossal mess on your hands!
You have certainly made your original plan more interesting!
you have too many curved tracks and a switch where you want your lift out sections. You can try it but it probably wont't work out well. Try shifting things around so you only have the two mains going over the lift out section.
Why the double cross over. two seperate crossovers work better.
You need a runaround track on the left side somewhere or you may as well rund around the whole layout to get to the other end of your trains.
You are running large engines and I think you may not like how they look on your radii.
If you have room to walk around the outside. make the layout larger and walk around the inside instead.
Seems that you are trying to put everything you want into a small space. It may be a good idea to take a step back and narrow down your wants.
post the size of your space and I will see what I can come up with for you.
Steve
I have 6x8 feet to work in. The layout needs to be separable and movable. The RH side is blocked of somewhat by the sofa being there, and the upper left top 1.5 ft of space has a glass cabinet about 4" away from it. The rest of the upper and lower sections are walkways, so it can't be expanded beyond that. I can sit on the sofa and turn around on my knees, but it's no way to operate or really work on a layout. The layout itself is about 44 inches, so when I sit on a low stool inside the layout, it's at eye level. I spent about a year planning the layout, and given the space, tools, and workspace at my disposal, this is what fit. Some things, like a cookie cutter layout, were not possible due to lacking space to turn the lumber. While I was working in the space cutting lumber etc, I had curtains up and a tarp down to contain the dust.
My roommate is moving out in a few weeks though, so I will possibly be getting his room for this. It's 16x9'6", but I am still not sure what we are doing with that room. I may need to fit my workbench in there as well. We shall see.
Here is what I come up with that will fit. #6 switches.
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/10157326_10207149711935481_8623242566529049444_n.jpg?oh=bc6ab8bd1b959de28cf2a708267a9cbe&oe=572F1E0C
Agree with steve that, given the number of tracks, the removable sections will be difficult to do. Is it possible to put the controls on the outside of the layout at the bottom of the diagram, and use the center hole for access only? My suggestion is to wait for the other room to open up and see what space is available for the layout. Your latest plan is an improvement over the original plan, but continued tweaking can improve it even more.
Choops Here is what I come up with that will fit. #6 switches. https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/10157326_10207149711935481_8623242566529049444_n.jpg?oh=bc6ab8bd1b959de28cf2a708267a9cbe&oe=572F1E0C Steve
I like the look of Steve's plan above. Maximizing the radius where possible is a good idea. You can eliminate the switchback by installing a curved turnout (LH) in the upper left on the outside main line. Your crossover could be added in somewhere as a dummy track to represent another unmodeled railroad crossing yours. You could even add an interchange track (partial) so that rail cars can leave your railroad (interchanges are "universal industries" ie: anything can enter or leave your railroad from one).