Joe R; If soldering never solved the problem, it may well be a cold solder joint or point routing power.
Some here say you can' trust a soldered rail joiner. I'm not sure why that would break down over time, but the practice of dropping feeders from every rail and wiring the turnouts up the wazoo makes a lot of sense to me for long term failure free electron flow.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
JOSEPH RENNER My layout is our basement which doesnt have much of a temp swing. I soldered my joints on small layout but still have dead spots. I thought soldering solved this problem. Any suggestions?
My layout is our basement which doesnt have much of a temp swing. I soldered my joints on small layout but still have dead spots. I thought soldering solved this problem. Any suggestions?
One thing you can check is if you have any cold solder joints. Also if you are relying on switch points to carry voltage to spurs you may not be getting adequate connection.
Joe
Mel,
Thanks for sharing your story. Derailments are one of, if not most, annoying parts of MR. They can happen for multiple reasons.
I appreciate that you note that despite your technical background, nothing is full-proof. Yesterday, I saw that one side of track got mis-aligned from the joiner and I was unable to sucessfully reattach it. It was annoying to recut a section of track and remove the old one.
I solder track joiners for curves. Having the layout in a finished basement is much easier to manage than an unfinished area or garage. Both climates are prone to greater temperature fluctations and other issues that wreck havoc on a layout.
The Pacific Southern has been in operation for over 50 years. It operates very reliably with 80 car coal trains and many long passenger trains every week. It has standards for trackwork, locomotives and rolling stock. It is in a clean basement (see photos) that is heated and has several dehumidifiers. But inevitably there are problems. Occasionally, there are shorts between blocks due to expansion closing gaps.
It seems that this type of problem is unavoidable.
It appears that expansion does not necessarily close the gaps at both ends. I think leaving gaps in some unsoldered track joiners (or no track joiners) is essential and that filling the gaps preventing expansion would be a mistake.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
richhotrainBasement is centrally heated and cooled, seasonally, no dehumidifier.
The Central Heating System will lower the humidity when it is on in the winter. If you live in a cold climate where the CHS is on a lot, you should have a HUMIDIFIER installed on the system to replace the moisture that is being dried out. An automatic Humidistat should be set at 35% to 40% to add moisture when needed to protect fine wood furniture from drying out and to stop you from getting ZAPPED with static electricity by the kids when they shuffle their feet on the carpet and touch their finger to your nose or ear.
If you have Central Air Conditioning, it automatically de-humidifies the air when it comes on. The humidity is the water that is running away from the cooling coil in the Plenum on top of the furnace to a drain. It is the same stuff as that which forms on a cold can of "WOBBLEY POP" on a hot summers day.
Blue Flamer.
Very interesting thread as I am building a layout in our heated attic (boiler/radiator-type heat, not forced air) and just last weekend encountered a number of locations where the newly laid flextrack had bowed outward. My wife and I live in Minnesota and last weekend we left town. The outdoor temperature dropped down to -14 F and the relative humidity dropped to approx. 53% (max. of around 73%). Of course the indoor temperature ranged from 60 to 70 F, but the outdoor air was very dry (air at -14 F can't hold much water vapor). This was the coldest air of the winter thus far.
The layout is constructed with 3/4" plywood "ribbons" supported by risers on 1x3 joists and 1x4 L-girders, with cork roadbed and Peco flextrack. The track is glued to the cork with DAP Alex Plus, and all rail joiners on curves are soldered, as are some on the straight sections (not many of those as its a curvy layout in a 12' x 13' space). I soldered the flextrack into 6' or 9' sections and then soldered each of those to the track already in place before curving them to the required radius. What that meant for me was that there was a short (approx. 6" to 9") section where there was no glue holding the track to the cork, as I didn't apply the glue until I had worked the track into the required radius, then I pulled it back a little to apply the glue (Peco flextrack is forgiving with that).
Last Monday when we returned there were approximately 12 locations where the track had bowed outward, all located where there was no glue holding the track to the cork, or directly adjacent to those locations (in the latter case some of the track was pulled a little bit off of the glue). I have replaced those "unglued" sections with glued sections. I used the Kalmbach benchwork book instructions on purchasing the wood (AC plywood, kiln-dried, etc.) I am guessing that the wood shrank last weekend due to the very dry weather. If the relative humidity was 53% with a temperature around 0 F, when that air is heated to 60 F the relative humidity will be even less. Plus my wife and I weren't in the house last weekend to breathe a bunch of humidity into the air.
I will be cutting gaps in the very short straight sections--I hope this prevents track pull-aparts when the humidity rises again and the wood expands. The attic space will have a room air conditioner in the summer but I won't run it all the time, so it's bound to get quite humid when the outdoor temperature rises into the 90s with high humidity.
Any ideas? What about the portions of the curved track at the soldered rail joiners, where there are no ties underneath the track? Should I somehow attached the rails to the roadbed to prevent movement there? Or should I leave it as is? This is an interesting issue to deal with, here in the middle of the continent where the temperature and humidity vary so widely with the seasons.
Regg05gg05 wrote the following post 2 days ago: I've been watching this thread closely since I'm in the process of building a layout with someone in my unheated garage where i live in the greater Chicagoland....I'm using homasote for my roadbed and plywood for the open grid benchwork. Do I need to be concerned about the humidity or more so the temperature. I was going to by a dehumidifier in the fall when the prices usually go down at Lowe's or Home Depot. Do I need to use a wood sealer on the open grid benchwork???
Regg there was a thread about unheated garage as a layout space in the Chicago area on here a few years ago. I remember because it was the first time I replied.
The consensus was that insulation, including in the ceiling, on all the walls, plus heating and air conditioning would be advisable. Inside ate garage as few days every summer will bake your brains. Some winter days/evenings will give you frost bite on fingers and noses. Not good for enjoyable railroading.
Dave
I live in a high valley (4300 ft elevation) in northern Nevada, year round average humidity is about 20%. My garage has no more or less humidity than the rest of the house. 9 years ago I built a large layout in my garage and had the track down in mid october when the weather was dry and temp averages in the 70's. I had not soldered my track at that point and when the winter set in and my garage reached 38 degrees all the track separated. Since it was too cold to do the needed repairs I waited till late April when the temps got into the 70's again. Then I soldered all the flex track and some of the sectional. Summer came around and the first day we had century mark temps, my garage hit 118. Unforgettable! And the humidity was 7%. All the track on the layout was severely heat kinked, most of the flex track damaged beyond use. I gave up on that layout and took it down.
My layout now...started in 2011. Occupies my living room, dining room, and part of my kitchen. The temps go as low as 60 in the winter and with no AC can get to 105 in the summer...low humidity all the time. All the flex track is soldered and I only see minor heat kinking on one area of my layout on the hottest days of summer.
Humidity does have and effect but I live in the desert. Heat is the culprit. And it does directly affect the track.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
Related topic ... use of shim for different track manufacturers.
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5d624b3127cdeea80756b290200000010O08BatXDZq5bg9u3Gg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00007956855020150805170425965.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/?tn=2021810383
Terry
I thought I did allow gaps (business card thickness), I did not solder rail joiners and I used DCC feeder wires every section I laid. What got me was the PCB board ties I used to keep ends of flex track from bowing or kinking. Same as soldering joiners!
Now I use PC board ties soldered to rails (or joiners) to keep the gauge or keep multiple ies straight - BUT I do NOT glue down the PC ties. I let them float by shimming before ballasting then removing the 0.010" shims.
Regg05I've been watching this thread closely since I'm in the process of building a layout with someone in my unheated garage where i live in the greater Chicagoland....I'm using homasote for my roadbed and plywood for the open grid benchwork. Do I need to be concerned about the humidity or more so the temperature. SNIP
Regg,
Yeah, you're going to want to do something to limit humidity. The best thing would be to air condition the garage, which has other benefits, of course
You say it's unheated, though, so I suspect you'd need to insulate it. A vapor barrier, usually plastic or other sheeting is also a good idea.
A humidfier will have a hard time keeping up with Midwest level humidity, plus it warms the air, not a good combination. A/C is a very effective dehumidfier, plus gives you cool air.
People tend to focus on homasote as being an issue many times. It's actually not that bad when it comes to absorbing humidity and changing dimensions. With a rise from 50% to 90% humidity, dimensional change is only about 0.25%. That's about a 1/4" over the length of a 4x8 sheet.
http://www.homasote.com/products/440-Soundbarrier.aspx
Often, wood may expand that much or more. So painting or otherwise sealing the benchwork is a good idea in a case like yours.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman Being Mel lives in Bakersfield, the humidity swings are far less severe than the temp swings he documented. I'd say this is a case where temp is the primary factor. Admittedly, humidity is likely the more common culprit in most places, but I doubt it is in Bakersfield.
Being Mel lives in Bakersfield, the humidity swings are far less severe than the temp swings he documented. I'd say this is a case where temp is the primary factor. Admittedly, humidity is likely the more common culprit in most places, but I doubt it is in Bakersfield.
Thats what I was going to guess - you know, Bakersfield CA should be dry right? I grew up in Davis CA where I remember humidity - at least in the summer in the 10-15% range - very dry! So out of curiosity I google Bakersfield CA:
https://weatherspark.com/averages/29736/Bakersfield-California-United-States
Humidity The relative humidity typically ranges from 21% (dry) to 94% (very humid) over the course of the year, rarely dropping below 14% (very dry) and reaching as high as 100% (very humid). The air is driest around June 19, at which time the relative humidity drops below 25% (dry) three days out of four; it is most humid around January 9, exceeding 91% (very humid) three days out of four.
The relative humidity typically ranges from 21% (dry) to 94% (very humid) over the course of the year, rarely dropping below 14% (very dry) and reaching as high as 100% (very humid).
The air is driest around June 19, at which time the relative humidity drops below 25% (dry) three days out of four; it is most humid around January 9, exceeding 91% (very humid) three days out of four.
Whoa! Not as dry as I thought and in fact it can get darn humid? Did I read it right? In the winter months it looks like it hovers up there more than I would have guessed. Just goes to show you it isn't just the east coast or mid-west.
I had a garage layout in Indiana during graduate school in Indiana and ended up with some similar problems as described in this thread. I soldered all my rail joints and then found bulging track at one point and then in the extreme cold many of the soldered joints and broken and pulled apart.
So now I don't solder most of my rail joints anymore, only a few of the curves and leave most of them floating and just provide lots of drops to make sure there is plenty of electrical connections to avoid dead spots. I painted all my homasote to help it resist moisture and run a dehumidifier to try to keep moisture around 50%, which is mostly summer when it runs.
So regardless of where you point the finger, it seems like a good practice.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I've been watching this thread closely since I'm in the process of building a layout with someone in my unheated garage where i live in the greater Chicagoland....I'm using homasote for my roadbed and plywood for the open grid benchwork. Do I need to be concerned about the humidity or more so the temperature. I was going to by a dehumidifier in the fall when the prices usually go down at Lowe's or Home Depot. Do I need to use a wood sealer on the open grid benchwork???
Regg
I do solder some rail joiners for short sections of track when it doesn't really need a separate feeder. But generally, I leave the joiners loose. Never had an issue except for one time when a heavy rain left a larger than normal puddle on the basement floor and sprung an insulated joint that had been in place 20 years. That was definitely humidity. The outside of the foundation was subsequently regraded and not had any more problems.
I'm with you Paul, along with sealing the benchwork, I only solder the curves sections. Living in central Florida I do have a bit of a/c in the summer months, keeps the garage in the low 80's and helps with humidity. In the winter months, no a/c or heat to the garage. although the temperature is less in the winter, humidity could still be a problem. With gaps in my straight sections I have yet to experience any problems, going on 8 years now. Gaps are the solution to any problems, be they rail expansion or benchwork expansion or contraction.
On a prior layout in a prior house I had track blow out when a humidity problem developed in the basement. I had soldered all railjoiners except insulated which were tight.
Currently, I run dehumifier in summer and humidifier in the winter. Both are set for 45%. Temperature is set for 70 degrees year round. Layout is still in early stages but I am planning on not soldering all the rail joints - just those on curves. We'll see.
Enjoy
Paul
Colorado Ray The coefficient of thermal expansion for nickel-silver is 9x10^-6 (0.000009) inch per inch per degree F. For a 32 inch radius loop the circumference is roughly 201 inches. For a 10 degree F temperature swing, the total change in length is 0.018 inches. Normal rail gaps should easily accommodate that. For uncontrolled spaces with larger temperature swings, the effects would be proportionately increased. Brass has a slightly higher coefficient at 0.0000104 to 0.0000116 depending on the alloy. Wood parallel to the grain has a very low coefficient at 0.0000022 for white pine. However, for across the grain the coefficient is 0.000017. So with wood, it's not the temperature; it's the humidity/moisture content. The coefficient for moisture expansion of wood depends great on whether it is quarter sawn or flat sawn. For white pine an average coefficient would be about 0.002 inch per inch per % moisture change across the grain. Much less along the grain (0.00025 using the same ratio as for thermal). Climate controlled spaces typically only vary within a three to four percent range. So that 201 inch loop might expand and contract by 0.2 inches. Again, unheated spaces may vary over a greater range. Therefore sealing the benchwork in those spaces would be critical. Ray
The coefficient of thermal expansion for nickel-silver is 9x10^-6 (0.000009) inch per inch per degree F. For a 32 inch radius loop the circumference is roughly 201 inches. For a 10 degree F temperature swing, the total change in length is 0.018 inches. Normal rail gaps should easily accommodate that. For uncontrolled spaces with larger temperature swings, the effects would be proportionately increased. Brass has a slightly higher coefficient at 0.0000104 to 0.0000116 depending on the alloy.
Wood parallel to the grain has a very low coefficient at 0.0000022 for white pine. However, for across the grain the coefficient is 0.000017. So with wood, it's not the temperature; it's the humidity/moisture content.
The coefficient for moisture expansion of wood depends great on whether it is quarter sawn or flat sawn. For white pine an average coefficient would be about 0.002 inch per inch per % moisture change across the grain. Much less along the grain (0.00025 using the same ratio as for thermal). Climate controlled spaces typically only vary within a three to four percent range. So that 201 inch loop might expand and contract by 0.2 inches. Again, unheated spaces may vary over a greater range. Therefore sealing the benchwork in those spaces would be critical.
Ray
mobilman44It was the plywood drying out (shrinking) that caused it. I had thought the wood was all dried out, but obviously it was not.
It's one more example of "lumber ain't what it used to be".
Last summer I had a new deck built out back. I noticed that the guys were butting the decking boards tightly together. Since I had been taught years ago when I had the energy to do stuff like this myself that you needed to leave a gap between the boards, I asked them about it. The contractor told me that if they left a gap, by the time the wood had finished shrinking pets and small children would fall between the boards. Sure enough, a year later the boards that were installed tightly together now have a gap of about 1/4" between them.
Imagine what 1/4" of movement in 6" would do to your track?
Fortunately for me, I move slowly enough that all my lumber has a chance to acclimate to the train room before it's used.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hi,
My current and previous HO layouts are in a spare bedroom in a climate controlled house in southeast Texas. Six months after laying track on the current layout, I walked into several distorted track areas that happened "overnight". It was the plywood drying out (shrinking) that caused it. I had thought the wood was all dried out, but obviously it was not.
The good news is that most of the track came right back in place with a slice from a Dremel cut off wheel. Three areas had to be rebuilt however.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Confusing thread.
What causes expansion? Temperature swings, humidity swings?
Both? Neither?
Expansion of what? Track? Benchwork?
How severe is the problem? I have a Midwest basement layout. Basement is centrally heated and cooled, seasonally, no dehumidifier. Atlas flex track nailed onto 1/2" plywood. I don't solder rail joints. I have not experienced an expansion problem in the 11 years that layout has been up and running.
Is soldering all rail joints the problem?
Rich
Alton Junction
floridaflyerDon't believe the track expands or contracts very much.
My experience is very much in line with the OP's. Rail gaps at joiners are needed for RAIL EXPANSION control. Humidity has exactly zilch to do with it.
Why am I so sure? My benchwork, and some of my under-roadbed subgrade, is steel. Steel studs, unlike forest products, care less about humidity (or, in this area, lack thereof.) They do experience thermal expansion - but only about half that of nickel silver.
So, I absolutely, positively DON'T solder rail joiners. I solder electrical jumpers around all non-insulated joiners, and dress the rail ends to remove anything that might contribute to a derailment. My rail joiners might slide like trombones, but my trains operate reliably. I guess I'm doing something right.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in a Clark County, NV, garage)
Homasote can absorb moisture like a sponge. I had to install a dehumidifier with condensate pump so water was pumped out regularly.
Foam would have been a better way to go.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Build your trackwork on foam and forget the ply, much more easy and no expantion and contraction problems.
YUP definetly the benchwork.
ROAR
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