Also everything is labeled now! Main in black, branches in red. The redesign of the furnace room wall is shown. Walls around the layout are in sky blue (though wierdly, in 3D view only the north wall looks that color, the others are all darker, yet I picked the same color from the picker). Only thing I didn;t put in is the main yard along the south wall, and some town tracks/industry opposite the yard, on the south side of the center penninsula.
Main line on the east wall it now just goes straight up to the north wall where it emerges from under the branch. The branch on that side is the more ambitious of the two. There are some tracks along the diagonal for sorting cars dfropped off by the mainline train, then it curves away from the main, loops around the cement plant as it climbs over itself, and then there is a yard along the north wall before it heads into two staging tracks. If this look slightly familiar, it's because I modeled it somewhat on the C&F that was the subject of my previous layout. I've got one other industry spot, and will come up with some others, possibly another in the upper right corner. Grade is a hair over 2%
The other branch, I'm not as sure of. This is to be a sort of simple single-ended coal branch. I have it coming off the main and looping inside the penninsula blob to gain height, then a long diagonal bridge crossing the main. It loops around above the main (possibly exposed on the inside of the curve, and then back into a tunnel under the area I marked for a coal breaker. Finally turns the corner, goes through the liftup section where the main once again is exposed, and ends with a short runaround. I want to locate a couple of smaller coal loadouts along here as well, a single a s doublt truck dump at least, possibly a slightly higher volume loader, but the highlight is the breaker, I will be modifying a Walthers new River Mine. Grade on this branch comes out to 2.5%.
Turnouts off the main used by mainline trains are #8 - first track off the main for the eat branch, the passing track on the main along the north wall, etc. Turnouts off the main used only by branch trains - the connection for the west branch, are #6. Turnouts on the branch are #5. Branch minimum radius is 24", main is 30". Still to add, main yard along south wall, passing track and city industries along south side of lower penninsula, and whatever else I can fit in without making it too crowded or making any aisles smaller. Also track details for the breaker and cement plant are obviously not complete.
As always - questions, comments, blast away. Click image for larger view where you can actually read things - a MUCH larger view.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
What does here's mean?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Likely the forum software's version of here's.
Joe
rrinkerAs always - questions, comments, blast away.
A comment on the upper peninsula:
The way you have the lines crossed at the entrance to the peninsula will make things difficult for an operator following his train. You have put consideration into other areas of the plan to avoid congestion. I don't think this track arrangement is consistent with that spirit.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
NP2626 What does here's mean?
It's what happens when you use Chrome instead of IE. I substututes the HTML escape code for the apostrophe. ' is the code for '
carl425 rrinker As always - questions, comments, blast away. A comment on the upper peninsula: The way you have the lines crossed at the entrance to the peninsula will make things difficult for an operator following his train. You have put consideration into other areas of the plan to avoid congestion. I don't think this track arrangement is consistent with that spirit.
rrinker As always - questions, comments, blast away.
I just don;t see how to get a penninsula in there if I don't flip-flop it like that. If I start a solid curve right after the main connection and try to loop around, I'm going to be pinching the aisle at the top.
I don;t think it's so different from trying to follow your train on the main - you go past the furnace room and then you have to go around tot he other side of the penninsula to the upper right where your train reappears.
You said:
"The other branch, I'm not as sure of. This is to be a sort of simple single-ended coal branch. I have it coming off the main and looping inside the penninsula blob to gain height, then a long diagonal bridge crossing the main. It loops around above the main (possibly exposed on the inside of the curve, and then back into a tunnel under the area I marked for a coal breaker. Finally turns the corner, goes through the liftup section where the main once again is exposed, and ends with a short runaround."
It looks to me if the end of both branches are close to the same level, both under the main at the stagging wye. How about taking the end of the coal branch into the laundry room into a small stagging yard of it's own, like the other branch is? (Under the main stagging)
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I guess I could wye them together the way they main is. Both would be above main staging - the cement brank is at a max of 5" above the mnian, the coal branch is at 6" the way it is. I didn't think overhanging 2 tracks with not much more than minimal clearance would be a big deal, but overhanigng 4 tracks - now the access to the main staging is going to suffer.
rrinker NP2626 What does here's mean? It's what happens when you use Chrome instead of IE. I substututes the HTML escape code for the apostrophe. ' is the code for ' --Randy
Interesting. With my system it looks the same with Chrome, Firefox and IE.
I think the plan looks pretty good.
If you don't want the looping peninsula, try originating the peninsula off of the other side, by the stairs. It might be a little tight around the wye, but you've got a lot of space along the bottom of the stairs.
- Douglas
JoeinPA Interesting. With my system it looks the same with Chrome, Firefox and IE. Joe
Yes once posted it looks the same no matter what. The difference is, I originated the thread in Chrome, and it put the escape code in. I've posted thread titles with ' in them before with IE and it stays with the ' character.
Doughless I think the plan looks pretty good. If you don't want the looping peninsula, try originating the peninsula off of the other side, by the stairs. It might be a little tight around the wye, but you've got a lot of space along the bottom of the stairs.
There's about 3 feet less width on that side, because of the stairs. The main and the coal branch cross the stairs, but that will be on a lift-up section for access to the room. Maybe a swinging gate will be easier, but I have the ceiling height to have it lift straight up to be a walkunder for anyone 6' or less.
Thanks for the clarification Randy. I use Chrome as my primary browser but lately I've noticed a lot of glitches with other sites. I may go back to IE.
rrinkerI don;t think it's so different from trying to follow your train on the main - you go past the furnace room and then you have to go around tot he other side of the penninsula to the upper right where your train reappears.
Yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable with that either. I wouldn't want to mess up the flow or give up the mainline mileage. I'd loop the mainline out onto the peninsula and make the branch an inner loop like you did on the other one.
LOL That's how I USED to have it, and it was suggested to swap it this way.
Randy,
I'm just thinking here and making sure you thought of all options. Your very first plan posted here, way back, I think had that bottom peninsula snaking up through the entire middle section of the basement, sort of looping where the cement plant is now. Now that the furnace room has been moved back, you might want to see of that would fit better. I think that would give you more main line run and the ability to flow with the train.
Well, back to the helix - after seeing the East Bay plan in MRP 2015, I thought maybe I could make use of the ramps to stanging idea, but that would make a lot of hidden track as there are really only 2 places with enough length for a switch ladder and staging tracks under the main layout area - the very top and the very bottom.
So I got to thinking, what about a 2 turn helix (at 30+" radius, 2% grade gets me 8 inches in 2 turns) and put the staging under the part of the layout along the top. Using a helix greatly reduces the encroachment in the laundry room, which is a plus, and keeps almost 100% of the railroad in "my" part of the basement. A downside is that this reduces the number of staging tracks from 9 to 8, however even the shortest one is longer than the longest one before, and the two longest ones are more than long enough to serial stage 2 trains on each track.
I have it roughed in in the drawing, but not ready to post, takes me a while to get the helix to actually helix - that's maybe one area where 3rd PlanIt isn't horribly intuitive. Plus I goofed on the original mainline and have it all 6" too low, so I need to properly set the height of the maina nd branch before I set the helix levels. Mocking up some boxes giving me 6" of clearance from the lower railhead to the top (meaning the upper benchwork and roadbed could be as much as 2" thick), I can seemingly easily reach in, so the 8" between levels seems like it would be plenty for staging purposes
Randy, that "cement plant" loop could be angled further toward the south wall easing the incoming radius and posssibly eliminating the need for an at grade diamond. Not sure how wide you plan for that south wall benchwork, but it looks to be rather narrow and no problem w/ isle width. The end loop of the middle penninsula can be moved southward as well for the isle clearance to the cement area. Min radius appears to be 28"
Come quite a long way and plan is looking great.
BTW, where is the other lally column? Looks that there should be something in the isle near the cement loop. Quite a large span for the main beam w/o one.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
There will be the main yard along the bottom wall. I was trying to keep about a 4' aisle there so people could get past the yard crew. But the middle penninsula may come down a bit - it's also a bit narrownow that I looped the branch through there, and I was planning on putting a town with some switching opportunities there.
The cement loop - that's not an at-gread diamond, as the track loops around the penninsula, outside of where the cement plant will be, it climbs, so that's a bridge over the lower track there.
There's only one column, somewhere around the east side of the short wall in the middle - that wall is currently longer but I am going to cut it back. It's possible there are two, one at each end of the wall as it exists now, but I don't think so. The wall where the door to the garage is is another block wall and is the end of the basement area and supports that end of the main beam. Definitely nothing near the cement loop - from inside the furnace room, the beam is completley visible and for the current width of the furnace room (the top where this drawing has the wall diagonal - it's currently squared off to the width shown by the wall with the door on it). There is no columb between the outside wall and there. If you go back and look at my initial plans, I have that center wall drawn out to how it stands today. Between the furnace room and that wall is an open archway, so no column there. If it is anywhere but close to the middle, it would be about 4 lines to the right of the ends of the middle wall. Because of the way the paneling wa sput up, until i rip it out I can't exactly see where it is. From east to west, it's a total of 36 feet. If it happens to be where I think it could be, then it would be 15' fromt he east wall, and if there was then a second between there and the garage, there would only be 10' and 11' spans. Unless the PO pulled a John Allen and removed one near the furnace room, meaning there would have been a total of 3 across the span.
OK curiosity got the better of me. If you go back to one of my original plans, when I showed that middle wall at full length - between that wall and the wall of the furnace room, it was covered in a construct of 3 pieces of dimensional lumber and some quarter roud to make it look like rough beams (there's even 45 degree angle braces, aka headknockers, at the corners. So, what I just did was cut a piece of that waway so I could either see behind it or pull out the paneling to see behind it. The supporting structure for this fake beam is a frame of 2x4 and 2x3, to either side of the main steel beam. I was able to peak in behindthis on the stair side and - no lally column. As fas back as I could see, no column (but I could only see a foot or so past the opening I made. I am somewhat convinced now that the solumn lies at the center of the span, 18 feet in from either side. There is most definitely no column from the east wall to the wall of the furnace room - on the firnace room side of the wall, the column is completely exposed (well, that side, and the bottom). No column there. Now, the merits or lack thereof of just 1 column in an 18 foot span, I don't know., The house was built in 1972 and there is no noticeable sag in the floors above. Also, I need to measure them, but the floor joists are VERY large, much taller than any house I've lived in or remember looking at before - there is a LOT of room above the beam up to the underlayment of the floor above - this is what surprised me whan I first pulled back some of the ceiling tiles, the drop ceiling it at about 7 feet or more, and is suspended below the beam. The top of the beam pushes 8 feet, and up to the top of the floor joists - no idea, but it's WAY up there.
Edit: so, I guess technically I've now started, having ripped out a 2 foot long section of the old wall in the basement.
Randy, even though your house was built in '72, it seems you have lucked out on it's construction. Far better for unobstructed layout space.
Seems you're getting close to actual benchwork constuction, any plans as to the type? From all the radius turns and peninsulas, I would recommend "L" girder. The peninsulas can be "boxed" ended which would allow radian joists and curving? arcing facia or possibly a subfacia. Subfacia of 3/8 or even 1/2" ply strips allows for a solid backing for the otherwise thin facia
This benchwork is far more involved than you need. but can get the idea
All the "turns" are laid on radian framework, for full turn the joists can "fan" the entire semicircle. This allows for easier riser placement and keeps the riser much closer to 90 degrees to the subroadbed.
I don't do L girder, always thought it was a waste. Plus I can make nice square cuts. And measure properly. I am going with open grid, risers and cut out subroadbed for the open areas and flat sheet of plywood on top for the yard. As much as possible will be free standing - since I am building new perimeter walls I can attach right to the wall studs. The long penninsula, I will probably build a wall down the center and cantilever off each side. The cement plant area will need legs, but they will be set back in from the edges. Trickiest bit will be the lift bridge where the main and the branch on two different levels cross the stairs. I'm not keen on a swinging gate. I figure a solid frame, floor to ceiling, with 4 drawer slides or rack rails mounted vertically and maybe a couple of counterweights will make something that will easily slide up out of the way to walk under and then slide back down to operating position.
I'm assuming plywood sub bed, but I might use MDF, I'm testing various cobinations of sub bed and roadbed to see what sounds best to me. Plywood is certainly easier to cut, but the MDF may be quieter. Oh, benchwork framing will be done with 3/4" plywood cut to make 1x4's, not pine lumber.
I'm nowhere near ready to start, I still have to remove the drop ceiling, remove all the walls, remove the carpet, finish the floor, build new walls, run new electric - and more.
Randy, not actually recommending to use "L" girder exclusively, showing the advantages of the construction for use of the "radian" joist layout. The few areas (cement plant and center penninsula) could benefit fron radiused facia for isle clearance and overall appearance. If you look close at the "club" pics, you can see that it is a combination of boxed grid, cookie-cutter and "L" girder. An underlying framework has advantage of not only the radian joists, but set back support legs, as not to be constantly kicking them as you move about following a train.
The main framework of the entire yard is 1x4 boxed frame, all prefabbed in sections from the 1:1 plan drawings. L girder comes into play at the backside for the outer track loops
You may benefit from some sort of variation for the peninsulas. Your around the wall is straightforward of coarse.
I love the planning aspect, and since I was a bit bored tonight, I roughed out an idea that would avoid your duck-under ....
Dividers down the middles of the blobs would visually extend the run.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I had tried a similar arrangment in the beginning - though I didn;t think to keep the staging where I have it now. Only thing is this nets a much shorter mainline run, and I'm looking at basically a dogbone here to have a continuous run - though rather than double track I could possibly have one track at a higher (or lower) elevation to be the branch, with the ramps at each end up and down not being used for normal operation.
You could do a twice around type mainline with this plan. One level would be higher than the other by about 4-5 inches, or enough to run one mainline under the other. Towns on the upper track could be as wide as the benchwork, and the lower line would go under it in a tunnel. Towns on the lower track would have a high mainline running at the back or even on a bridge crossing the town somewhere at an angle. The branch could even be higher and snake around as needed. The scenry for this would be awsome. The branch could start at the staging wye with a small town acting as the terminus. Then there would be three lines out of there. One to staging, one to the right, and one to the south. The cement plant would be on the upper blob, and the lower blob would be where the branch interchanges with the main on the upper track. The main yard could still be at the bottom, and maybe narrow down that isle to the lower blob some. The operator for the interchange could operate it from the right of the lower blob or on the left just outside the layout in the isle. The scenery could be such that an operator doen't have to get in the area to the left of the main yard.
Hmm, there certainly are possibilities with this, I'll sketch a few out. Only thing is, now it's getting to 3 levels, and not all of the terrain I was going through is hilly enough to support that. While I'm not following specific prototype locations, I do what to keep it somewhat plausible. If I were doing a completely freelance design, I think I'd jump on this - alternate towns, one on the upper, one on the lower, most of the time hide the alternate track, or at least have it goe behind enough things that it's not right there up front and obvious, and in one or two spots DO make it obvious by crossing over the town or a yard or something on a bridge. The mix of options hides the roundy-roundy look.
The other option I have here is to no-lix it, the main climb to the upper deck could start on the left blob and climb over the yard along the bottom, and the upper blob would have 2 stacked loops. Fitting staging, and a continuous run option, would be the hard part.
This could work. I just roghed in curves and straight along the walls main lines and got almost 3.5 scale miles. There is also room around the curve and back wall of the upper blob to get almost 6" above the other line with a 2% grade. Down on the lower blob, if I don't start climbing until the track along the center wall, the curve and down at an angle and then curve again to go along the lower wall, I get about 5 1/2" vertical with a 2% grade. And in quick review, I ended the lower blob at least 2 feet too far to the left, there's like a 7 foot aisle between the end of the blob and the track across the furnace room door. OK, with that fixed, I can get a 6" seperation at the first point of overlap, 2% grade. Comes out a touch over 3.5 scale miles now. Now to figureout the branch. I don't really want to go with a full extra deck - witht hemains aobe one another, the branchw ould almost have to go UNDER. Or I could maybe forego the branch completely and treat the upper main as a branch....
OK. Lets say that you did eliminate the seperate branch. If you put a staging yard on the upper part like you were thinking for the branch (above the lower one), you now have a point to point run on the mainline with the main yard being somewhat in the middle of that run. The one run could be modeled as a class A mainline, and the other part of the main could be modeled as a lesser used line. I'm thinking that you could still do the loop connection so you still can have a continuous run on the mainline to watch'em roll. If that wouldn't work, put two staging yards on the lower part (one westbound and one eastbound) with the wye connection and you have almost the same thing.
Edit: Never Mind. The upper staging wouldn't work.
Another variation - the upper blob is removed and the loop is along the stairwaell wall - leaving room for a branch blob on the right like in previous plans.
Biggest downside I see so far is the reach in on the turnback loop. Still not totally sure how I'd do the mainlines - I do recall reading about a method of alternating towns, not sure where that was, maybe in MRP. The idea beaing that you'd have towns 1 through 4. Two tracks, but simulating a single track railroad - at town 1, main 1 would be in the foreground and main 2 would be in the background or hidden. At town 2, main 2 would be in the foreground and main 1 would be hidden. So as you run, you are actually hitting ever other town. On one hand, that solves the problem, on the other, it seems like it would be hard to wrap your head around to operate things.
The neat thing, having two tracks all the way around of course nearly doubles the mainline length compared to my previous plan. However, if you count the branch in with the main on the most recent former plan, it's over 3.5 miles of track.