Yeah, the RGS had some weird traffic patterns and relatively meagre facilities to deal with them.
SPVOn the other hand, I would think at least some of the ore from the mines and mills on the branch would have been processed at the smelter in Durango, but maybe it went elsewhere after transfering to the Rio Grande standard gauge in Montrose?
Great question, wish I knew the answer. Durango is definitely the closest smelter by rail -- but those were RGS rails and getting over them reliably could be a problem. Other than Leadville or Pueblo, I can't think of anything else at all close.
As NP2626 noted, seems weird to have Vance and Illium so close, but Vance just didn't have room for a wye. The sloping hill made that impossible, so they dropped down by the river on the way to Telluride to locate it with little room to spare. Makes you wonder how they operated it. I don't recall a clear explanation about this situation in anything I've read, or how it operated, but I'm sure it became less of a bottlenexk than it seemed in later years with declining traffic.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
BTW, there is a NP album, shorter than most, unfortunately, but it is what it is.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/sets/72157640596333823/
Barriger was a RR executive who was an influential and well-connected traveler. Many of the pics are just taken off the platform of whatever business car he was traveling on -- and he almost always traveled that way. He often served as a consultant and evaluator of RR lines and property for the government and undoubtedly for others such as financiers, lines looking to buy others, that sort of thing as far as I can tell from reading a little about him in Monon H&TS pubs, books, Trains, etc. He was president of the Monon after WWII and helped modernize the RR far beyond simply managing the new diesel motive power. He wasn't there that long, but set in motion a lot of things that bore fruit later. If it all had, the Monon would've been independent longer, but that's also what it is.
Anyway, he always took his camera and plenty of film. A lot of times he'd just shoot every so often as he traveled along, so that's why there may just random shots every so often, mixed in with really valuable ones. It's been awhile since I looked at them, so don't really recall what's there in either album.
And when you've digetsed all that, then there's the Dorman collection, which has lots of RGS stuff in it, just page down to find it here.
http://www.cumbrestoltec.org/interests/162-dorman-catalog.html
SPVSPV wrote the following post 6 hours ago: mlehman I've driven to Vance Junction from Illium before, but I think I didn't really have this figured out until you wrote this. There is no wye at Vance Jct, but Illium is so close it doesn't really matter. I can't find pics or a map with documentation of it, so am a bit hazy working from written descriptions. There was a wye at Illium, but this must've required backing up the branch towards Vance from it in order for trains to be properly oriented to go south from Vance after they turned on the wye. Rather odd, but it's the RGS. I'm not an RGS expert, but I seem to recall reading about Telluride being treated as a terminal and served primarily by trains from Ridgway, so trains coming from Telluride into Vance and then south to Durango may have been quite uncommon. This seems like an odd arrangement geographically, but from an operational standpoint, the RGS was primarily built to reach the mines around Telluride, so treating it as a terminus makes some sense in that light. I did just see a newspaper clipping in Dorman's RGS book from the early 30s discussing rumors of the RGS abandoning the segment between Vance and Rico - the writer is unconcerned because Telluride is served by trains from Ridgway, while Rico and Dolores are served by trains from Durango, so little would have changed in his estimation.
SPV,
Was rereading your post and thought of something that is still vaguely at the back of my mind but is probably documented in the usual references. I think the arrangement at Illium with the wye may have had something to do with snowfighting, i.e., needing to turn a plow or flanger and return to Telluride or back to Ridgway.
I think you're correct from what I recall -- it's been 30 years or so since I read most of this -- about the traffic mainly going north, which caused the need to keep things open in the winter, so there's something NP2626 may want to explore in thinking about doing a northward traffic oriented version.
Got no idea if it's doable, but the main could come in from the rest of the layoutand would seem to continue south, but could form a loop back around to Pandora, or even further south, from the southern end of Ophir. BTW, I share the opinion that Ophir has been overdone and offers more secnic than operational possibilities. I love the place, been through several times because we often use Ophir Pass getting over that way from Silverton to go up and back over Imogene, but it's changed too much to charm me like the pics of it do.
One thing I would personally want to do is Vanadium to Placerville, because I'm a historian of such things. But it's a pretty cool complex visually and offers a good place to generate loads and receive empties, too. The Vanadium tank cars are very cool. This is also where stage lines connected to go to the Paradox Valley, because that's where many of the early radium ore deposits were found, with it being a byproduct of the vanadium refining process that was highly valuable for medical and scientific purposes in the early 20th century. The Paradox Valley is also a bit strange geologically and well worth the drive IMO if you;re ever in the area.
Thanks guys! There is a lot to ponder in your two conversations. Yes, Ophir maybe has been done a lot, that's because it is unique and has a lot of trestles and steep cliffs, just the sort of stuff I love to see model train worm its' way around. Also, I might be attracted to these well modeled areas, simply because they are so well modeled! Thinking about Vance Junction’s and Ilium’s close proximity to each other: wyes need flat locations, which would make sense doing it at Ilium. Was the small three track yard at Vance Junction necessary for coaling tenders? Was a coal deposit located at Vance? I should think, given the light traffic on the RGS a single siding would have sufficed. However, if there where twenty trains a day from Telluride, maybe at some point traffic was heavy enough to justify the small yard.
I also think your right, most, maybe even all of the traffic to and from Telluride headed North to Ridgeway; or, South from Ridgeway.
Who knows anything about the Sanborn Insurance Fire Maps? Do they cost money? Is there a website?
I appreciate all your input, Mike and Tom!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626Who knows anything about the Sanborn Insurance Fire Maps? Do they cost money? Is there a website?
http://libcudl.colorado.edu/sanborn/mapSearchResults.asp?cid=Telluride
Telluride is the only town listed in San Miguel County, but there are more from Colorado here: http://libcudl.colorado.edu/sanborn/browse.asp
I just reread this whole thing. I had been thinking you had said you wanted a pre-WWII era, but now I see that was my imagination. Era could make a big difference. I personally think the period from the mid-1930's to WWII is the most interesting because of the use of Geese, K-27's, ex-C&S freight cars, etc. Vanadium traffic was increasing as ore from the mills at Telluriude, Pandora, etc. was decreasing, making them less important as traffic sources. The fall stock rush was always there.
However, if you go for an earlier time period, the Telluride branch becomes more important. You might not want K-27's in an earlier time period, so you might be able to get away with sharper curves.
My one source of info on RGS is my ancient 41-year-old 1st edition of Silver San Juan, by Mallory Hope Ferrell. I'm sure others can give more thorough info on RGS operations.
Tom
Tom,
I think that's a pretty good summary of the major era one can divide RGS history into. There's Expansion (to 1893), then Survival (to roughly 1930 or whenever the receiver was appointed), then Decline. There would be a few continuities, but these periods really were different in terms of equipment and operations.
Personally, I think if I were to model the RGS I would choose sometime around 1910-1917. You get a very interesting mix of motive power that way - the new C-19s and T-19s are arriving, but the old C-16s are still around, some still wearing their diamond stacks and others newly modernized. No Geese or Mikados to be found, though, and I know a lot of people like those. I'm more a turn-of-the-century guy myself.
Even if I never build an RGS layout, looking into this is a very interesting proposition! I’m not only designing a model railroad using specific locations to model, it's a history lesson on not only the railroad of interest; but, the areas it served. For me, I must admit, modeling the period when the Geese where being used; but, still allowing freight and passenger equipment to operate is a big attraction to the RGS!
I'm also not such a stickler about historical accuracy that I wouldn’t use Ten Wheelers and Consolidation on the layout and more mineral trains than would have actually taken place for the time period being modeled.
I’m still working on my HO layout and enjoying that immensely! The reality is, maybe the Sn3 will never happen. I’m still enjoying this discussion and the studying I’m doing on the RGS and its’ history, where the physical plant was located and seeing what information on it I can find!
I’m unable to re-trace my steps to where I found the maps of Telluride, Vance Junction, Ophir Loop, Trout Lake and Lizard Head Pass. The maps where done by someone who had done the research, posted it to the web, then decided they would attempt to make some money from all that hard work, by making the information available on a CD. He wanted $99.00 for the CD(s), which put the CD out of my price range. Besides, I have determined some glaring errors on the work that he did leave available on the website, so I really wouldn’t want to pay for information that I now feel may not be all that accurate.
Like I said earlier, Google Earth has been a most enjoyable way to study this railroad. Traces on the earth where the ROW was located are fairly easy to see!
We all have our own ideas about what makes for an interesting layout. ACY has his ideas, I have mine and Mike likes both, so let’s keep this discussion going! I am going to keep designing the RGS for my basement and looking at it like it will eventually happen (even though it may not). It’s been a long, strange, trip!
Maybe it was Sandia Software?
http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/mainline/san%20juan%20branch/rio%20grande%20southern.htm
I've got one of their original CDs circa 1997. They're been around for awhile. In it's defense, the CD contains a compilation of all their Rio Grande material. It's a good general reference, but I typically go to my library after finding something in it of interest in order to get more detailed info. On the other hand, that $100 would buy a couple of good books on the RGS.
Glad to hear you're coming out of that model RR slump and getting fired up. Doesn't mean you end up going there, but it sounds like a good way to get the juices flowing again.
Mike, I don't know if I was in a slump, just other interests superseded my interest in Model Railroading. When the weather gets nice, it will happen again.
Again, thanks Mike!
The websdite I could not find anymore was GhostDepot, like you suggested. If you have the CD, maybe you could look at what ever the guy had about the track layout in Ridgway and explain what it was like. Posting on this website would probably be breaking copyright law.
Again, thanbks for the help, Mike!
It was easy to stay legal. I don't have the RGS disc, just D&S and C&TS. The images were kind of crude, but it was something like 1998. I suspect they've never been revised to current hi-def content expectations, which does leave them looking rather dated.
I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of "The RGS Story Volume 1" which focuses on Ridgway to Telluride. Volumes 2 and 3 would also be useful for you, but they tend to sell for a bit more right now (scarcity, I suppose). But Volume 1 can be found for very reasonable prices - look here: http://www.amazon.com/The-R-G-S-Story-Bridges-Telluride/dp/0913582484
I tried to find a map of Ridgway online and didn't have much luck. I can say it's a fairly compact yard and well-suited to modeling. It was actually featured as an layout design element in Tony Koester's book on LDEs. You can see trackplans and/or photos for a couple people who are modeling it pretty faithfully - Mark Evans in Sn3 here and Craig Symington in HOn3 here.
Hope that helps!
Chris
SPV I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of "The RGS Story Volume 1" which focuses on Ridgway to Telluride. Volumes 2 and 3 would also be useful for you, but they tend to sell for a bit more right now (scarcity, I suppose). But Volume 1 can be found for very reasonable prices - look here: http://www.amazon.com/The-R-G-S-Story-Bridges-Telluride/dp/0913582484 I tried to find a map of Ridgway online and didn't have much luck. I can say it's a fairly compact yard and well-suited to modeling. It was actually featured as an layout design element in Tony Koester's book on LDEs. You can see trackplans and/or photos for a couple people who are modeling it pretty faithfully - Mark Evans in Sn3 here and Craig Symington in HOn3 here. Hope that helps! Chris
Chris, Thanks for this information, although not a schematic of how the real Ridgeway tracks where laid, it looks like Mark Evans diagram maybe fairly close. Going to Ridgeway on Google Earth and seeing where the yard and turn table were, can give me a scale of how big it was and where things are located.
I have done enough of the design work to have determined that I lack the room I need to make an Sn3 layout. Jamming Layout Design Elements (LDEs) end to end (in my opinion) would not look right, without a few yards of track in between to give some distance. I could discard a couple LDEs and replace with the few yards of the needed track, however this would be to the jeopardy of the operating fun of the layout! Even using 28 inch curves in the Ophir Loop area only barely makes this element fit into my space for a layout.
Some of you might say, well than why not go with HOn3 then? For me, a change of scale was a part of the attraction of considering a new layout and since my current layout is in HO, I don’t feel this would be enough of a change.
So, at this point, I feel it isn’t very likely that I will tear down my present HO layout to make room for another, newer layout. What you guys who have contributed to this and the other threads I’ve started on this subject have seen, is a person doing the due-diligence I felt necessary to make a decision about making a change.
This decision has not decreased my interest in the Rio Grande Southern and as long as the conversation continues here, at least I am going to go on with this study of this railroad. As I did when I was involved in Model Railroading as a kid, I am considering designing a “someday” layout of the RGS. Since I love engine terminals, instead of Telluride being one end of track plan, I’m going to use Ridgeway. I may; or, may not include the branch to Telluride in the design. However, the southern terminus will still be Lizard Head Pass. Some of the tourist operations of the RGS also ended at Lizard Head. This will only be an exercise in design work as I’m pretty sure my next housing move will be to a nursing home; or the grave, as I love this house and have no intentions of ever moving!
I would like to thank everyone who gave me there opinions!
... (see below)
Due to changes which just occured to certain situations in my hobby life, I am going to continue to work on the design of an RGS Sn3 layout which was the impetus for this thread.
A very timely article was in the latest issue of Model Railroader about building a gate to get into an around the walls layout. This would add much needed usable space to the design I had been working on. I'm going to incorporate this feature and see how it works.
I'm kinda surprised at myself for not considering an opening gate; or, lift out as opposed to a duck-under, which is what I have now. I want to finish a couple projects before I go back to designing. This does add a dimension of doable-isum to Sn3.
Just got back from the LHS where I purchased Tony Koester's new book GUIDE TO NARROW GAUGE MODELING. I haven't had a chance to read it in detail, but it looks like it's thorough & informative. A narrow gauger like Mike L. would probably be able to evaluate it better than I could.
On page 23, there are 2 photos of Sn3 RGS models on a curve, with this caption: "These overhead photos show how Dale Kreutzer's Sn3 RGS freight and passenger equipment looks on his 28" minimum radius curves. He notes that he has had no problems operating K-27 Mikados around these curves but recommends a 30" radius if space permits."
Hope this helps in the planning process.
I had thought about getting this book, the first time I saw it advertized was in the latest Model Railroader. I might just go ahead and order it.
What did you pay for the book Tom? If I was to order from Kalmbach it would be $30.00 for the book with shipping and tax and seems somewhat excessive! I will wait and see what it will cost at a hobby shop, next weekend. This is an item that can be shipped via media mail for $2.-$3.00!
$30.00 does sound excessive. I got my copy at Mainline Hobby Supply in Blue Ridge Summit, PA. It was their last copy. Price printed on the back is $21.99 for the book, but they discounted it to $19.79 plus tax. Eight dollars for tax & shipping seems excessive, but what do I know?
Tony discusses lots of different narrow gauge operations. As I was reading the book, I wondered whether you had considered something like the Quincy & Torch Lake. It certainly didn't have the scenery and broad appeal of the RGS; but it was narrow gauge, it had some very interesting equipment and operations, the equipment was smaller (which might fit your space better) and it was a lot closer to home for you. Just thinking.
I've seen the ads, but not had a chance to look a copy over yet. Maybe the LHS will get one? I may even buy if there's enough new material to get me interested. It's not exactly like I need another book on narrowgauge...
It was good to see a general interest book on modeling the narrowgauge to hit the market. Narrowgauge offers more great stuff than ever in terms of kits and other materials, plus the fabulous RTR offerings from Blackstone in HOn3 and all the good stuff in the various On gauges. While Sn3 is not as widespread, it retains a devoted group of modelers big enough to support all the essentials.
Narrowgauge is almost a whole 'nother world, a parallel universe to standard gauge. I don't know if it's true or not, as I've never been to the NMRA National, but I've been told that in strong years (when it's in narrowgauge country) attendance at the National Narrow Gauge Convention can rival the smaller attendance years of the NMRA convention. Since I've only been to the NNGC, I've got no personal experience. But if you're looking for that old-time hobby experience of mostly building stuff, rather than simply unboxing it, narrowgauge is the place to be.
Tom, I've never even heard of teh Quincy & Torch Lake, so I guess I really couldn't have considered it. Where was it and what did it do?
My interest in the Rio Grande Southern is from before I even built my present railroad. Although the real RR had a hard difficult life and appears to have been close to forclosure at points in it life span, this doesn't matter to me to much. When I road the Durango & Silverton last month, my interest in Colorado Narrow Gauge was peaked. I'm hoplessly stuck in S.W. Colorado!
The Q&TL was a 3' gauge tramway operated on the Keeweenaw Penisula in Michigan's UP. A little over 6 miles long, it played the difference between being a common carrrier and a private line to its advantage. More info here:
http://www.copperrange.org/qtl.htm
According to Hilton's book AMERICAN NARROW GAUGE RAILROADS (Stanford University Press, 1990), there were also narrow gauge operations in other parts of the Upper Midwest:
Minnesota:
1. Caledonia, Mississippi & Western --- Caledonia Jct. (Reno) to Preston, 58 miles. Completed 1879; absorbed by CMStP&P; standard gauged 1901. Last portion abandoned 1976.
2. Minneapolis, Lyndale & Minnetonka Railway --- Minneapolis to Excelsoir (on Lake Minnetonka), 10.5 miles. Built 1879-1881. Lake Calhoun to Excelsior abandoned 1886. Became a street railway, with the last portion being abandoned 1954.
Wisconsin:
1. Fond du Lac, Amboy & Peoria Railroad --- Fond du Lac to Iron Ridge, 30 miles. Built 1877. Purchased by CMStP&P in 1883 and converted to standard gauge. Iron Ridge - Mayville now operated as part of Wisconsin & Southern.
2. Galena & Southern Wisconsin Railroad/Chicago & Tomah Railroad --- Galena to Woodman, 92 miles. Included a 4-mile branch to Platteville and a branch to Lancaster. Built 1872-1880. First operation 1874. Purchased by C&NW 1880. All converted to standard gauge 1882 except 16.4 miles Woodman - Fennimore, which continued to operate as a narrow gauge C&NW branch until abandoned 1926.
3. Pine River Valley & Stevens Point Railroad --- Lone Rock to Richland Center, 16 miles. Built 1877-76. All but 3 miles constructed of strap iron on maple stringers. Ten miles of strap rail replaced by 1880, leaving only 3 miles of strap rail. Purchased by CMStP&P 1880 and converted to standard gauge. Currently intact but idle, owned by the State of Wisconsin. (Note: This info is over 20 years old & likely not 100% reliable).
4. Robbins Railroad and Thunder Lake Lumber Co. --- Rhinelander to Robbins, about 12 miles, plus 40+ miles of logging lines. Built 1893 - 1895. Abandoned 1941.
Michigan (Keweenaw Peninsula only)
1. Mineral Range RR and Hancock & Calumet --- This history is too complicated to summarize briefly here. It includes the Quincy & Torch Lake and the Hecla & Torch Lake. Quincy & Torch Lake remained narrow gauge until closure in 1945.
Hilton's book lists narrow gauge operations in 45 States, so Colorado, California, and Pennsylvania are certainly not the only places to go for inspiration.
Interesting! There is no town of Mason today, nor is there any real evidence of there ever having been one and Quincy must have become Hancock. It might be an interesting line; but, it ain't Colorado!
I'm sure there were Narrow Gauge lines in many places. Tom, you should build one of them!