Thanks Rich, it was your post suggesting pilot holes and track nails that got my wheels turning. Regards, Peter
HO-Velo Maybe overkill and a bit obtrusive, but made the save with Evergreen styrene angle and Micro Engineering track spikes, only casualty a #24 drill bit. Regards, Peter
Maybe overkill and a bit obtrusive, but made the save with Evergreen styrene angle and Micro Engineering track spikes, only casualty a #24 drill bit.
Regards, Peter
Rich
Alton Junction
Hello All,
richhotrainDrill pilot holes and tap in Atlas track nails. That will hold the loose material and the nail heads won't be obvious.
I recently had the opportunity to tour a working mine that produces Rhodochrosite, which is the Colorado state mineral.
On the rock faces of the mine there were rods and bolts holding some of the unstable rock.
Using track spikes or nails would not be un-prototypical to hold unstable masonry.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
HO-Velo Over the past year or so my Chooch flexible walls have been slowly pulling away from the smooth side of the tempered hardboard; shame on me for relying upon their self-stick adhesive during installation in 2014. Sure hope I can make a judicious save considering the delicate location. Good luck, Peter
Over the past year or so my Chooch flexible walls have been slowly pulling away from the smooth side of the tempered hardboard; shame on me for relying upon their self-stick adhesive during installation in 2014. Sure hope I can make a judicious save considering the delicate location.
Good luck, Peter
On my test layout segment I used a good amount of yellow carpenter's wood glue to hold the chooch self-adhesive wall section in place. It has been holding for about 6 months now with no problem.
.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I recently purchased, from two different sources, Chooch large and medium flexible cut stone walls. These were both new in original packaging.
Apparently Chooch has recognized the adhesive issue and is now shipping their flexible products with the adhesive backing as a user applied option, not factory installed.
Both came with the adhesive on a separate sheet.
Given the unevenness of the back of the flexible products I had doubts about this, basically large sheet of transfer tape, would hold.
I used contact cement to fasten the felxible sheets to porous wood frames.
Following the instructions of the contact cement, I coated both surfaces to be joined with the adhesive. Allowed to dry until just tacky then pressed the two together.
Using spring clamps and strips of Luan, let them cure for 24-hours.
So far the bonds are holding, even around the curved sections.
I mentioned in a 2014 reply to this thread that I tried to re-use the flexible walls on a new project, and I thought that the original factory applied adhesive would still work because it seemed plenty sticky. In fact, it did work for the most part but the corners came loose. So, I called Chooch and asked for advice. They were adamant in saying that glues and contact cements would not work since they conflict with the factory installed adhesive.
What I finally did was to use a pin vise to drill pilot holes, then tap in Atlas track nails. That did it, and you really cannot see the nail heads.
cmrproductsI have had to resort to the Contact Cement as most of the time the surface I want to attach the Chooch Wall to is a wood surface which is rough! I will just use some along the edges (as this seems to be the only areas that come loose) and then clamp or put a board up against the wall until the Contact Cement dries! I have found that one doesn't have to do it according to the MFG instructions to get the stuff to hold tight!
I missed the original portion of this particular party, but if you're using contact cement on a porous surface, the usual practice is to coat it, then allow it to completely dry before re-coating it.Then both mating surfaces are coated with contact cement and allowed to dry - usually for a minumum of 20 minutes, but the can will have a specified drying time noted.
The two surfaces are then brought into contact, and that's generally the task completed. No need for clamping or a board to hold it in place.
I won't claim that contact cement will work with those Chooch Walls, as I've not used them, but it's unlikely that it will work if not used properly.
I can't count the number of train-show plastic freight cars I've bought with deformed underbodies/floors because someone coated the floor and weight with contact cement, then immediately joined the two pieces and completed the car. Thus enclosed, the glue's solvents continue to work on the plastic, with predictable results.
cmrproducts ....Frank Infortunately I have seen it come loose! It is quite rare but Contact Cement isn't permanent! Close ! Same goes for Construction Adheasive - It isn't permanent either - YET some trust their projects completely with it.....
It doesn't surprise me anymore that people don't read the instructions for the various products they use, then complain that such-and-such was "no good".
Wayne
I've determined that it would be awfully expensive to build the viaduct with this Chooch material.
There is another gentleman who built a very nice Thomas viaduct with plaster casting methods here on this forum, and under discussion at the moment.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
I like the Chooch product and use it on my layout. I think you could use track nails and cover them with lichen or such growing out of the wall. Sort of like the he Western Wall in Jerusalem.
Joe Staten Island West
This has been a very interesting conversation for me as I am seriously considering utilizing the Chooch flexwall material for the decorative facings on my stone wall Thomas viaduct project. I would likely be attaching the Chooch wall material to the edges of my 1/4" foamed PVC board roadbed,...challenge #1.
Then I would like to attach some of this wall material to itself if possible,...challenge #2. What I have in mind is cutting the side walls of the viaduct at the outer limits of the 'arch framing stones', then inserting a rolled up piece of this flex wall material in to form the interior walls of the arch. That would require the perpendicular bond between the two identical materials.
The ends of this rolled up piece would then be decorated in such a manner to look like those 'arch framing stones'.
Sorry can't post pics here.
Paul, don't feel badly. I too wasted several wall sections until I got the hang of things. I'll re-use them in staging, etc. down the road.
Rich, I think the adhesive is so un-lumpy residue wise, that super glue or hot glue won't necessitate the Chooch adhesive glue's removal. It's an incredible amount of work to do that and the few small areas I've reglued with super glue (edges and corners here and there) seem to lie flat just fine.
To be fair to Chooch, I think in my case (bass wood/masonite) the corners and edges would've stayed down fine except that my wall is 8' long and removable for hidden track access, so with all that gentle whipping/flexing, of course the self adhesive glue would let go here and there. The new cribbing wall has been moved from the layout to the hobby table in the next room for painting several times.
I also want to give a "shout out" to Mike (the owner) at Chooch as he's located "locally" to me and helped me get the walls quickly for an impeding visit/tour of the layout and I really needed those risers hidden fast! Check out his company's site if you haven't already. One can order direct from Chooch if list prices aren't the major concern of the moment.
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Removing the adhesive from the Chooch walls is undoubtedly the key to success if attempting to re-use or re-apply the walls.
Last weekend's approach of cleaning the gaps (both surfaces) with solvents (a bit tedious with q-tips), sanding down to some bare (still rough) wood, and applying superglue gel seems to have worked. I suspect hot glue woule also have worked. Agree it's quite a nice product. My first attempt was not the best.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I've had very good luck sticking Chooch flexible cut stone walls to thin basswood and to masonite. I've just started using the timber crib versions on masonite and did get a little lifting at corners/seams where two panels meet. I used Zap A Gap superglue and so far has fixed the lifting corners.
I've found Chooch's adhesive to work well with smooth sufaces but do wonder how permanent the adhesive will prove to be. (I'd sure like to know exactly WHAT adhesive it is!)
Glad to know of the hot glue/brads/track nail methods just in case, down the road. I do have to say that the lst Chooch Flexible walls stuck to the basswood (1/16" thick) panels has received tons of "abuse" getting moved and "tossed" about the layout over the last year and has remained in place. It's a good product but nice to know of "fixes" down the road if needed.
For the OP, if there is no joy after trying "everything", I'd recommend starting over with new flex walls and a new smooth mounting surface. The cut and random stone walls look about as convincing as the older resin versions when painted. The timber cribbing walls won't fool anybody compared with scratchbuilt wood versions, but they'll do for now.
zstripe Paul, Yeah..I think welding would be your best bet. Take Care! Frank
Paul,
Yeah..I think welding would be your best bet.
Take Care!
Frank
Welding!!! Of coarse..... Or just build a scale wall from scale pieces of stone (plaster)
Actually did something similar...bandsawed strips of dyed Hydrocal contact cemented to a clear pine tapered base for the pilaster
So how much "time" you have on your hands?
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I recall from my conversation with Chooch that because of the adhesive used on the Flexible Stone Walls, contact cement would not hold well. I am sticking with my recommendation of using track nails preceded by pilot holes drilled with a pin vise. Been there, done that, it works, and you can easily hide the nail headswith modeling putty or hobby crayon.
I was recommending the superglue/CA to provide a non-porous and smoother surface on the wood side of the joint. Yes, it will require something else to adhere to the Chooch walls. A contact cement should work at that point, but I can see you being leery of it now.
I'm actually leaning towards the hot glue if you have everything cleaned up. In that case, so long as things are cleaned and solid, it should work. You might try Goo-gone to take the adhesive off the Chooch walls to prep them.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Boy, you guys really stay up late, get up crazy early, or live in the Azores!
What we do know is that using a rough, curved edge from a sable saw with the peel & stick backing glue does not usually work 100% and not with superglue, white glue, contact cement, hot glue, gorilla glue, epoxy and some I forgot all added together. If doing again, I think I would first sand somewhat and add plwood edge veneer with wood glue, then try a test piece of wall with contact cement and one with hot glue and after drying give them each a test pull. If inadequate, I'd likely use a solvent to remove most glue from the peel and stick attachment area, then test again. And maybe do the nails during the drying stage and remove or just paint over them.
If that didn't work, I'd remove the peel and stick glue and glue a flexible metal strip to the wall material and another piece to the plywood edge. Then I'd hire a welder to attach the two! I'd open a window for the welding fumes.
Seriously, the comments have been enlightening for next time or similar events. Hope this all is helpful to others.
zstripe What makes you so sure...I have not used it? That I can not intelligently comment.
What makes you so sure...I have not used it? That I can not intelligently comment.
richhotrain zstripe I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement. But, of course, the Chooch Flexible Stone Walls, are not Formica. If you haven't worked with this material, it is difficult to intelligently comment. Rich
zstripe I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement.
I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement.
But, of course, the Chooch Flexible Stone Walls, are not Formica.
If you haven't worked with this material, it is difficult to intelligently comment.
If you look real close at the OP's pic's, it does not look like he has it on a all flat surface, like yours is, so really any adhesive you use will take some re-thinking.
BTW: I should mention that Bogp40 has the most viable solution. Very true, working with non-porous to porous materials, like in the case of Formica to MDS/MDF or plywood.
Bob,
Hot glue is what I used on my Cripplebush rubber rocks, too. Mine are installed on liftouts, so get moved from time to tgime. I've had no issues with them coming loose in the 7 or 8 years since installation.
Hot glue should work with the OP's Chooch flex walls. With everything else pumped in there, it was probably dicey to try to just add the hot glue and get good results. But taking things apart and cleaning them up before the hot glue would definitely work.
I've had similar issues w/ Cripplebush "rubber" rock castings. Eventually I found that hot glue worked out the best. Contact cement, Pliobond. liqiud nails and even tile mastic worked, but either was too time consuming, areas came loose and some seams opened. The substrate seemed to be the greatest problem, I feel that wood or plaster would need to be sealed to stop the glue absorbtion. This is also the reason that the Formica in question will delaminate. The base needs to be coated w/ contact cement and allowed to dry then recoat both surfaces for the greatest lasting hold. I feel the same applies here.
The hot glue most likely worked for me as the area was quite large and rather "irregular" w/ slivers/ chuncks of foam placed (hot glued) to bond/ conform the flexible castings to the base.
The walls in question and the self adhesive backing appears to need a relatively smooth "non porous" base. I still would wonder and not trust a bond like this over long periods of the glue eventually drying out.
Rich,
Sweet bridge!
Yep, that's agood idea with the wood. Another option would be some of that thin aircraft plywood (1/32?, 1/64?) as it's even more flexible.
I was actually thinking of something like gap-filling gel CA. It would soak into the wood and get good adhesion on that side, plus would be smooth on the outside for the wall to stick to. It might take two coats to get a nice smooth surface.
The thick CA would also work well for adhering the wood strip option also. Combining the two methods would be a great way to deal with an irregular plywood edge, as it would provide a means to smooth out especially bad places.
mlehman For the OP's original question... Yes, trying to stick to a rough plywood edge is marginal at best. Best thing would be either to sand it smooth or apply something over it to get a smooth surface.
For the OP's original question...
Yes, trying to stick to a rough plywood edge is marginal at best. Best thing would be either to sand it smooth or apply something over it to get a smooth surface.