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Securing Chooch HO Flex Wall

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Securing Chooch HO Flex Wall
Posted by peahrens on Saturday, June 28, 2014 4:03 PM

I added a curved Chooch HO stone flexwall that I added along the 3-4' edge of a 5/8" plywood grade, beyond an engine service area.  The flexwall length required several sections.  The product has a glue on the peel & stick backing. 

After awhile the wall edge started coming away from the side of the 5/8" plywood side where attached, creating a gap.  Unfortunately I tried a series of glues squeezed into gap, including contact cement, superglue gel, Gorilla glue, epoxy, etc.  Well, that didn't work in some areas and left me with a mess in three segments with a gap where nothing could work (except a staple gun) due to the varieties of glue there.

Today I went about it again, using q-tips and lacquer thinner and (alternating) acetone to remove most of the mess in the gaps areas.  It was easier to create a clean surface on the back of the (vinyl?) flexwall material than the plywood.  Eventually I got to where I was exposing real wood and roughed it up with sandpaper.  Then, I had to choose a glue and tried superglue gel, which seems to be working on the cleaned plywood and product backing. 

Of course, if doing again I'm not sure what I'd do, as the peel and stick backing seemed inadequate but I'm not so sure superglue (or any type) added to the joint would work well with the original glue still there.  Don't know if sanding the plywood edge smoother would have helped, mild heat, etc???

I do like the product, particularly after painting it over to better match the stonework on bridge piers and abutments on the layout.

You can see some of the wall in this older photo:

     

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, June 28, 2014 4:16 PM

Paul,

One of the best:

 

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, June 28, 2014 7:34 PM

First of all, I have to say that I am surprised that these "stone" walls did not hold for you.   I used a fair number of these on my double bascule bridge lift out section, and none came loose.

However, on another project, I did try to re-use some stone wall strips, and I did have a problem with corners and edges coming loose.  

I talked to Chooch about this and they indicated that glues and contact cements would not work since they conflict with the factory installed adhesive.

What I finally did was to use a pin vise to drill pilot holes, then tap in Atlas track nails.  That did it, and you really cannot see the nail heads.

Rich

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Posted by glutrain on Sunday, June 29, 2014 12:01 AM

If you peel off the backer paper, you will find that the Chooch walls adhere best to smooth, sealed and dust free surfaces. The adhesive is very strong and will give a permanent hold. Where I have used the Chooch walls to cover a somewhat irregular surface-to make a better lake side retaining wall than the previously installed cliff- I coated the backer paper with a high tack,flexible white glue from Crafter's Pick called Ultimate Tacky. I used track spikes to pin the walls to the former cliff face and left them in for a couple of days. The Chooch walls have enough resilience that the spike holes closed up on them selves when I pulled out the spikes.

Don H.

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Posted by cmrproducts on Sunday, June 29, 2014 6:05 AM

I have had to resort to the Contact Cement as most of the time the surface I want to attach the Chooch Wall to is a wood surface which is rough!

I will just use some along the edges (as this seems to be the only areas that come loose) and then clamp or put a board up against the wall until the Contact Cement dries!

I have found that one doesn't have to do it according to the MFG instructions to get the stuff to hold tight!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, June 29, 2014 2:39 PM

cmrproducts

I have had to resort to the Contact Cement as most of the time the surface I want to attach the Chooch Wall to is a wood surface which is rough!

I will just use some along the edges (as this seems to be the only areas that come loose) and then clamp or put a board up against the wall until the Contact Cement dries!

I have found that one doesn't have to do it according to the MFG instructions to get the stuff to hold tight!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

 

Bob,

You took the words right out of my mouth. Big Smile

Take Care!

Frank

EDIT: I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:55 PM

zstripe

 I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement.

 

But, of course, the Chooch Flexible Stone Walls, are not Formica.  

If you haven't worked with this material, it is difficult to intelligently comment.

Rich

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Posted by cmrproducts on Sunday, June 29, 2014 6:28 PM

zstripe

 

 

 

Bob,

You took the words right out of my mouth. Big Smile

Take Care!

Frank

EDIT: I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement.

Frank

Infortunately I have seen it come loose!

It is quite rare but Contact Cement isn't permanent!

Close !

Same goes for Construction Adheasive - It isn't permanent either - YET some trust their projects completely with it.

Screws and Glue - only way to go!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

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Posted by mlehman on Sunday, June 29, 2014 8:06 PM

For the OP's original question...

Yes, trying to stick to a rough plywood edge is marginal at best. Best thing would be either to sand it smooth or apply something over it to get a smooth surface.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, June 29, 2014 8:37 PM

mlehman

For the OP's original question...

Yes, trying to stick to a rough plywood edge is marginal at best. Best thing would be either to sand it smooth or apply something over it to get a smooth surface.

 

Depending upon the surface in question, if it is feasible, you might first cover the plywood with a very thin sheet of bass wood and then apply the Chooch Flexible Stone Wall onto the bass wood which is a much smoother surface.  That is how I applied on my double bascule bridge lift out section.

Rich

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Posted by mlehman on Sunday, June 29, 2014 9:11 PM

Rich,

Sweet bridge!

Yep, that's agood idea with the wood. Another option would be some of that thin aircraft plywood (1/32?, 1/64?) as it's even more flexible.

I was actually thinking of something like gap-filling gel CA. It would soak into the wood and get good adhesion on that side, plus would be smooth on the outside for the wall to stick to. It might take two coats to get a nice smooth surface.

The thick CA would also work well for adhering the wood strip option also. Combining the two methods would be a great way to deal with an irregular plywood edge, as it would provide a means to smooth out especially bad places.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by bogp40 on Sunday, June 29, 2014 10:28 PM

I've had similar issues w/ Cripplebush "rubber" rock castings. Eventually I found that hot glue worked out the best. Contact cement, Pliobond. liqiud nails and even tile mastic worked, but either was too time consuming, areas came loose and some seams opened. The substrate seemed to be the greatest problem, I feel that wood or plaster would need to be sealed to stop the glue absorbtion. This is also the reason that the Formica in question will delaminate. The base needs to be coated w/ contact cement and allowed to dry then recoat both surfaces for the greatest lasting hold. I feel the same applies here.

The hot glue most likely worked for me as the area was quite large and rather "irregular" w/ slivers/ chuncks of foam placed (hot glued)  to bond/ conform the flexible castings to the base.

The walls in question and the self adhesive backing appears to need a relatively smooth "non porous" base. I still would wonder and not trust a bond like this over long periods of the glue eventually drying out.

Modeling B&O- Chessie  Bob K.  www.ssmrc.org

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Posted by mlehman on Monday, June 30, 2014 12:26 AM

Bob,

Hot glue is what I used on my Cripplebush rubber rocks, too. Mine are installed on liftouts, so get moved from time to tgime. I've had no issues with them coming loose in the 7 or 8 years since installation.

Hot glue should work with the OP's Chooch flex walls. With everything else pumped in there, it was probably dicey to try to just add the hot glue and get good results. But taking things apart and cleaning them up before the hot glue would definitely work.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by zstripe on Monday, June 30, 2014 1:40 AM

richhotrain

 

 
zstripe

 I have yet to see a Formica kitchen counter top come loose, using contact cement.

 

 

 

But, of course, the Chooch Flexible Stone Walls, are not Formica.  

 

If you haven't worked with this material, it is difficult to intelligently comment.

Rich

 

What makes you so sure...I have not used it? That I can not intelligently comment.

If you look real close at the OP's pic's, it does not look like he has it on a all flat surface, like yours is, so really any adhesive you use will take some re-thinking.

Take Care!

Frank

BTW: I should mention that Bogp40 has the most viable solution. Very true, working with non-porous to porous materials, like in the case of Formica to MDS/MDF or plywood.

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, June 30, 2014 4:51 AM

zstripe

What makes you so sure...I have not used it? That I can not intelligently comment.

 

 

Because if you had used it, you would be able to intelligently comment.  Laugh

Rich

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Posted by peahrens on Monday, June 30, 2014 7:53 AM

Boy, you guys really stay up late, get up crazy early, or live in the Azores!

What we do know is that using a rough, curved edge from a sable saw with the peel & stick backing glue does not usually work 100% and not with superglue, white glue, contact cement, hot glue, gorilla glue, epoxy and some I forgot all added together.  If doing again, I think I would first sand somewhat and add plwood edge veneer with wood glue, then try a test piece of wall with contact cement and one with hot glue and after drying give them each a test pull.  If inadequate, I'd likely use a solvent to remove most glue from the peel and stick attachment area, then test again.  And maybe do the nails during the drying stage and remove or just paint over them.  

If that didn't work, I'd remove the peel and stick glue and glue a flexible metal strip to the wall material and another piece to the plywood edge.  Then I'd hire a welder to attach the two!  I'd open a window for the welding fumes.

Seriously, the comments have been enlightening for next time or similar events.  Hope this all is helpful to others. 

Paul

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Posted by woodman on Monday, June 30, 2014 8:01 AM
play nice boys.
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Posted by mlehman on Monday, June 30, 2014 9:19 AM

Paul,

I was recommending the superglue/CA to provide a non-porous and smoother surface on the wood side of the joint. Yes, it will require something else to adhere to the Chooch walls. A contact cement should work at that point, but I can see you being leery of it now.

I'm actually leaning towards the hot glue if you have everything cleaned up. In that case, so long as things are cleaned and solid, it should work. You might try Goo-gone to take the adhesive off the Chooch walls to prep them.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, June 30, 2014 10:45 AM

I recall from my conversation with Chooch that because of the adhesive used on the Flexible Stone Walls, contact cement would hold well.  I am sticking with my recommendation of using track nails preceded by pilot holes drilled with a pin vise.  Been there, done that, it works, and you can easily hide the nail headswith modeling putty or hobby crayon.

Rich

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Posted by zstripe on Monday, June 30, 2014 1:54 PM

Paul,

Yeah..I think welding would be your best bet. Smile, Wink & Grin

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by bogp40 on Monday, June 30, 2014 2:48 PM

zstripe

Paul,

Yeah..I think welding would be your best bet. Smile, Wink & Grin

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

 

Welding!!! Of coarse..... Or just build a scale wall from scale pieces of stone (plaster) Big Smile

Actually did something similar...bandsawed strips of dyed Hydrocal contact cemented to a clear pine tapered base for the pilaster

So how much "time" you have on your hands? Smile, Wink & Grin

Modeling B&O- Chessie  Bob K.  www.ssmrc.org

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 2:15 AM

I've had very good luck sticking Chooch flexible cut stone walls to thin basswood and to masonite. I've just started using the timber crib versions on masonite and did get a little lifting at corners/seams where two panels meet. I used Zap A Gap superglue and so far has fixed the lifting corners. 

I've found Chooch's adhesive to work well with smooth sufaces but do wonder how permanent the adhesive will prove to be. (I'd sure like to know exactly WHAT adhesive it is!)

Glad to know of the hot glue/brads/track nail methods just in case, down the road. I do have to say that the lst Chooch Flexible walls stuck to the basswood (1/16" thick) panels has received tons of "abuse" getting moved and "tossed" about the layout over the last year and has remained in place.  It's a good product but nice to know of "fixes" down the road if needed.

For the OP, if there is no joy after trying "everything", I'd recommend starting over with new flex walls and a new smooth mounting surface.  The cut and random stone walls look about as convincing as the older resin versions when painted. The timber cribbing walls won't fool anybody compared with scratchbuilt wood versions, but they'll do for now.

Jim

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Posted by peahrens on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 7:42 AM

Last weekend's approach of cleaning the gaps (both surfaces) with solvents (a bit tedious with q-tips), sanding down to some bare (still rough) wood,  and applying superglue gel seems to have worked.  I suspect hot glue woule also have worked.  Agree it's quite a nice product.  My first attempt was not the best.

Paul

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 7:55 AM

Removing the adhesive from the Chooch walls is undoubtedly the key to success if attempting to re-use or re-apply the walls.

Rich

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 6:01 PM

Paul, don't feel badly. I too wasted several wall sections until I got the hang of things. I'll re-use them in staging, etc. down the road.

Rich, I think the adhesive is so un-lumpy residue wise, that super glue or hot glue won't necessitate the Chooch adhesive glue's removal. It's an incredible amount of work to do that and the few small areas I've reglued with super glue (edges and corners here and there) seem to lie flat just fine. 

To be fair to Chooch, I think in my case (bass wood/masonite) the corners and edges would've stayed down fine except that my wall is 8' long and removable for hidden track access, so with all that gentle whipping/flexing, of course the self adhesive glue would let go here and there. The new cribbing wall has been moved from the layout to the hobby table in the next room for painting several times.

I also want to give a "shout out" to Mike (the owner) at Chooch as he's located "locally" to me and helped me get the walls quickly for an impeding visit/tour of the layout and I really needed those risers hidden fast! Check out his company's site if you haven't already. One can order direct from Chooch if list prices aren't the major concern of the moment.

Jim

 

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, September 01, 2019 9:14 AM

This has been a very interesting conversation for me as I am seriously considering utilizing the Chooch flexwall material for the decorative facings on my stone wall Thomas viaduct project. I would likely be attaching the Chooch wall material to the edges of my 1/4" foamed PVC board roadbed,...challenge #1.

Then I would like to attach some of this wall material to itself if possible,...challenge #2. What I have in mind is cutting the side walls of the viaduct at the outer limits of the 'arch framing stones', then inserting a rolled up piece of this flex wall material in to form the interior walls of the arch. That would require the perpendicular bond between the two identical materials.

The ends of this rolled up piece would then be decorated in such a manner to look like those 'arch framing stones'.

Sorry can't post pics here.

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Posted by joe323 on Friday, September 06, 2019 6:40 AM

I like the Chooch produc and use it on my layout. I think you could use track nails and cover them with lichen or such growing out of the wall.  Sort of like the he Western Wall in Jerusalem.

Joe Staten Island West 

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Posted by railandsail on Friday, September 06, 2019 8:53 AM

I've determined that it would be awfully expensive to build the viaduct with this Chooch material.

There is another gentleman who built a very nice Thomas viaduct with plaster casting methods here on this forum, and under discussion at the moment.

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, September 06, 2019 11:39 AM

cmrproducts
I have had to resort to the Contact Cement as most of the time the surface I want to attach the Chooch Wall to is a wood surface which is rough! I will just use some along the edges (as this seems to be the only areas that come loose) and then clamp or put a board up against the wall until the Contact Cement dries! I have found that one doesn't have to do it according to the MFG instructions to get the stuff to hold tight!

I missed the original portion of this particular party, but if you're using contact cement on a porous surface, the usual practice is to coat it, then allow it to completely dry before re-coating it.
Then both mating surfaces are coated with contact cement and allowed to dry - usually for a minumum of 20 minutes, but the can will have a specified drying time noted.

The two surfaces are then brought into contact, and that's generally the task completed.  No need for clamping or a board to hold it in place.

I won't claim that contact cement will work with those Chooch Walls, as I've not used them, but it's unlikely that it will work if not used properly.


I can't count the number of train-show plastic freight cars I've bought with deformed underbodies/floors because someone coated the floor and weight with contact cement, then immediately joined the two pieces and completed the car.  Thus enclosed, the glue's solvents continue to work on the plastic, with predictable results.

cmrproducts
....Frank Infortunately I have seen it come loose! It is quite rare but Contact Cement isn't permanent! Close ! Same goes for Construction Adheasive - It isn't permanent either - YET some trust their projects completely with it.....

It doesn't surprise me anymore that people don't read the instructions for the various products they use, then complain that such-and-such was "no good".

Wayne

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, September 06, 2019 3:44 PM

I mentioned in a 2014 reply to this thread that I tried to re-use the flexible walls on a new project, and I thought that the original factory applied adhesive would still work because it seemed plenty sticky. In fact, it did work for the most part but the corners came loose. So, I called Chooch and asked for advice. They were adamant in saying that glues and contact cements would not work since they conflict with the factory installed adhesive.

What I finally did was to use a pin vise to drill pilot holes, then tap in Atlas track nails.  That did it, and you really cannot see the nail heads.

Rich

Alton Junction

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