Thanks again folks for all the good advice. I'll be working on the "chore" over the next week as that oncoming cold front makes doing stuff outside difficult. I'm more and more convinced that I was just in too big of a hurry and put down more ballast than needed and did not clean it up as well as I could before applying the water/glue mix.
Thanks all!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
You can always go back and cover any stray ballast with more ground cover, or try ot paint the bright ballast with a dirt color (drybrush it so it blends in). I use WS fine for my HO branchline modules, real stone probably is easier, but I've had decent results (and couldn't commit to buying a bunch of a new product I've never seen in person before; one real rock ballast company has a minimum 3 bag order I think). One problem I had is bubbles form when wetting the ballast before (and after) applying glue. I didn't have this problem when I ballasted me last layout. I've used wet water first, then I tried straight 70% and 91% alcohol and letting them soak in for anywhere from a few minutes to about 30 minutes, rewetting it and then applying the diluted white glue. It's like the wet ballast trapped air underneath the soaked area, sometimes bubbles would appear after applying the glue then dry as small voids (craters). I'll fill these with weeds (this is a branchline after all) using extra fine ground foam one piece at a time (yes, a bit tedious but I don't mind at all, I'm a pretty patient person, especially with trackwork). The best way that works for me is to not pre wet the ballast, but to apply the diluted glue to the base of the ballast, letting it wick up into the ballast, once the ballast has sucked up the glue, I can apply the glue to the wet areas so it doesn't have to wick as far. I do the shoulders first, then between the rails. My thinking is the air will escape from the ballast as the glue is sucked up from the bottom. It took a couple weeks to ballast my 2x12 switching layout and I didn't eliminate the step of prewetting until the last few days; I wish I would have figured this out earlier. It goes against everything I've read/been told/seen in videos, but it worked so I do it that way. Ground foam and sifted dirt ground cover gets wetted first, then glued (for some reason, I don't get the bubble issue with ground cover, even when it's 1/4" deep). One place where the ballast is contained around the cork roadbed by styrene strips (like the prototype I used for inspiration, actually they used concrete curbing, not giant strips of plastic. lol) is 3/16" deep; when the glue dried, it pulled the ballast up and away from the styrene strip, leaving a gap...like the glue shrank as it dried and took the ballast with it. Not a big deal, I'll fill those areas with weeds (or maybe try to tear it out and do it over).
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
GraffenThe most quiet layout I have ever heard was Fleming Ørneholms Eagle creek. It is ridiculously silent....
Silent? Who wants silent. LION is even going to mount microphones and speakers under the tracks to amplfy the sound. Make is sound like a real subway station down there. That will attreact people's attention when a train is passing a particulrly lovely corner. Well, the whole subway is lovely, but even without the enhancement, onve visitor commented on how loud the trains were when they were running.
YES! Subway Trains!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I'm sorry if I'm entering into this late. I tried to Quote DrWayne regarding the Dixie cup but couldn't get the quote part to work. Anyway, he mentioned using a small cup, I use a spoon, and essentially do the same thing with it. This gives a small amount to work with, maybe too small for some, but works for me. I've used both play sand for my mains and WS HO Fine for my mine/log route and have no issues with strays. When doing the sand, I have a couple of old large spice bottles that I can spoon out of as I go; the large bottle of WS has the two flip caps, one that a spoon can go into. As DrWayne mentions, pre-wetting is all important, getting it damp first. I use soapy water. On large, tall slopes, I've had good success by 50/50 glueing lightly at the base of the ballast slope, then going back over at the rail edge, allowing them to wick to each. This seems to alleviate the dreaded washout for me.
As mentioned several times, there is no right or wrong way, just finding what works for each. Pre-wetting, regardless of water or alcohol, and not dropping giant drops of glue mix- they seem to be key.
Happy RR'ing! Duane
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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GraffenReal rock ballast combined with plywood, white glue and hardshell scenery is a good recipe for a lot of sound....
That describes my layout. It's also pretty darn quiet, and visitors often comment on how quiet the operation is. Solid construction helps a lot.
Rob Spangler
Strange....
No one mentions how the sound is effected by what kind of ballast you use!?!
Real rock ballast combined with plywood, white glue and hardshell scenery is a good recipe for a lot of sound....
Soft roadbed combined with either WS ballast or Chinchilla sand glued with transparent latex caulk on foam scenery on the other hand .... Now we are talking quiet!
I agree with Randy. I also use WS( fine grey blend) and he is correct in that you really need to wet it down. I start with the spray bottle of wet water held about a foot above the work and let fall as a mist. Once the ballast has some moisture on it you can lower the sprayer and give it a good soaking.
I use Elmers glue bottles for my glue mix. It has a nice adjustable nozzle also. I mix up 3-4 bottles at a time. That's about all I want to do, anyway. LOL!!
This is HO. Need alot more scenery in this location. Hope that helps. Terry in NW Wisconsin
This is HO. Need alot more scenery in this location.
Hope that helps.
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
wp8thsubI know WS has its adherents (Dr. Wayne prominent among them around here)....
I've used real rock on a previous layout, but chose WS mainly because of its lower cost and, around here, wider availability. A friend has recently given me a fair quantity of rock ballast (he bought several tons of it - screened it for his very large layout, then used the balance of it for his driveway ) and I may try to incorporate it into the as-yet-to-be-built second level of the layout. As for ease of application, though, I've noticed no difference between the Woodland Scenics stuff and real rock.
Wayne
mobilman44Other than Woodland Scenics, they [Klein's] handle the "Highball" brand. What can you tell me about it, and do you consider it "better or worse" than WS.
I know WS has its adherents (Dr. Wayne prominent among them around here), but I'd consider ANY real rock ballast to be superior to WS. Highball, Scenic Express, Arizona Rock & Mineral, Smith and Sons - they're all good and easy to work with. Each is essentially functionally equivalent. Choose based on color and availability.
Hi once again,
I'm fixin (Texas term) to place an order with Kleins (Modeltrainstuff.com) and I checked out their ballast selections. Other than Woodland Scenics, they handle the "Highball" brand. What can you tell me about it, and do you consider it "better or worse" than WS.
Real rock ballast is THE way to go unless if you are really wanting to fuss and fuss to learn the "feel" of getting Woodland Scenics ballast to look right when glued down.
It is important to note, if you have a peanut alergy, DO NOT USE Woodland Scenics Ballast products. They are crushed walnut shells and have had a few friend break out after helping me lay ballast.
As for size, it's best to think in terms of an HO scale figure. If the ballast granule is too big to fit in the palm of the figures hand, it's too big. Can't think of any time where I had to use two hands to pick up a ballast rock
As for color, best thing to do is find photos of the general area you are modeling, and pick a ballast color that resembles what was used in the area. Frequently it may be combinations of several different colors.
Chris
Other than never being able to get the soap in water method to work (very hard water here), I've not had a problem with WS materials 'floating' or washing away - because I always thoroughly pre-wet. I also tried the trick Cody Grivno shows in some videos of applying the dilute cement to the outside first and letting it wick up into the track center - if it does that, you know it's been wetted enough. You still need to run some down the center, it never quite 100% fills in, but it seems to leave less puddles. Next time I may try the multi-pass method of doing the center seperately from the shoulders, but it went OK doing the whole thing at once and I may not have patience for going over the same strectch of track 3 times, when one works.
For my pre-wetting sprayer, I picked up a small pump sprayer at one of the local craft stores. It sprays a very finemist with low pressure - perhaps if I held it right up to and pointing at the ballast, it would dislodge, but at any normal distance, it comes out with such a genetle force that it has never dislodged the ballast, and once it starts to get damp, it really stays in place. Compared tot he common trigger sprayer - which blows with a lot more force. For applying the dilute glue, I found certain brands of mustard have a very small opening, with multiple turnes from closed to full open. In my case, the bottle I have is Plochmann's brand. Once I used up the mustard, I washed and rinsed the bottle, and by just barely opening the nozzle I can run it along the inside or outside of the railhead and apply a thin trickle of diluted glue which, thanks to the pre-wetting, just soaks right in to the ballast and doesn't wash it away. Nice thing is, it is a pretty large container and I don;t have to constantly stop to refill it like if using a pipette.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thank you for your very kind words, mobilman44.
While there is no one "right way" to ballast, I think that the most important step is the pre-wetting, and that's regardless of whether you use wet water or alcohol. Very often, a poor quality sprayer will not give a fine enough mist to avoid dislodging the ballast particles, and in many instances, not enough wetting agent is used. It must penetrate right to the bottom of the ballast layer, and I doubt that one could apply "too much" - in many areas, I had pools of it in low-lying areas near the tracks. Of course, once the dilute glue mixture is applied, it should penetrate right to the bottom, too, and I had that collecting in pools, too. That's the main reason that I usually do the lineside ground cover at the same time - no point in letting it go to waste.
Mobilman44,
I guess, I am just the opposite, of you, more patient now than ever, as a matter of fact, at 71, if I was any more patient, I would be one in the Hospital.
Cheers,
Frank
Doctor Wayne,
When it comes to scenery/structures/car building, you are one of the best! While I generally follow your method of ballasting, I noted some points that I waver from - which may be the cause of my difficulties.
One thing I might add...... the last time I ballasted a large layout was over 15 years ago. I'm thinking that perhaps I was more patient back then - and I need to keep that in mind.
Thank you!
I use WS fine ballast, add apply it and the lineside ground cover in the same operation. I am surprised by the number of people having trouble ballasting, regardless of the supplier of the ballast or whether they use wet water or alcohol as the wetting agent, so much so that I've typed my method as a Word document so that it can be easily pasted into threads like this.
I keep seeing comments about people dreading having to ballast their tracks, or, from people who've tried and not had success, about what a crummy task it is. What follows is my procedure for ballasting - there are others that work as well, but this one uses readily-available and cheap tools and materials. The choice of ballast is up to you - I use Woodland Scenics Fine Ballast on my HO scale layout, but there are many other brands and sizes available, and plenty of colours. If you use natural materials, like sand, dirt, or decomposed rock, it's best to use a magnet to remove any magnetic inclusions that might possibly damage the motors in your locos. To ballast your track, I find that a small paper cup (such as those kitchen or bathroom Dixie cups) gives you great control over where the ballast goes. I usually move the cup along the centre of the track, tapping it as I go, to keep the ballast flowing. Less than you need is better than too much, although a soft 1/2" brush is useful for pushing around the excess or levelling what's in place. Don’t use the brush to brush the ballast around, especially the WS ballast, as it’s very light and will fly all over the place. Instead, lay the brush almost parallel to the ground and drag the ballast along. Then go back and do both roadbed shoulders in turn. Use the brush to level and re-arrange things as required, making sure to keep the ballast away from the throwbar area and the flangeways of the guardrails. To remove stray ballast from the tie tops, lightly grasp the metal ferrule of the brush between the thumb and forefingers of one hand, laying the handle across the rail tops, then, as you move the brush along the tracks, lightly and rapidly tap the brush handle with the fingers of your free hand. The stray ballast will "magically" bounce off the ties and into place between them.If you're also ballasting turnouts, make sure to keep the level of the ballast below the tops of the ties, and don't place any ballast between the ties surrounding the throw bar. To avoid gluing the points to the ties, place two drops of plastic-compatible oil atop each tie over which the point rails move, one next to each point rail, then flip the points back-and-forth several times to spread the oil. Parking the points in mid-throw will also help to ensure that they don't get glued to the stock rails, either.You can mist the contoured ballast using either water and alcohol, or water with a few drops of dish detergent added. Either should work, although I prefer the detergent, as it's cheaper and works just as well. (I save my alcohol - not the denatured kind - for a nice drink after I've completed the ballasting.) Use a sprayer that will allow you to spray a fine mist. To avoid having the force of the spray dislodge loose ballast all over the landscape, aim the first few spritzes upward, letting the droplets fall like rain. Once the surface has been dampened, you'll be able to spray it directly. Make sure to thoroughly wet the ballast right down to the base. Not doing so is probably the main reason that many people have trouble getting a decent-looking and durable ballasting job. To apply the glue/water mixture (white glue works just as well as matte medium and is way cheaper, especially if you buy it by the gallon. Those who claim that white glue dries shiny are not using sufficient wetting agent. The proportions should be about 50/50 water/glue, although a little heavier on the water will still work well). To apply the glue mixture, don't ruin a perfectly good spray bottle (and while doing so cover your rails and anything else nearby in glue, too): instead, use a dropper. An eyedropper will work, but a plastic squeeze bottle with a small nozzle will be much faster. Simply move along the track, as quickly as necessary, allowing the glue mixture to drip onto the ballast (or ties - you won't see it once it dries). You should be able to see it being drawn into the ballast due to the wetting agent. I usually do the area between the rails first, then the sides in turn. The glue mixture will spread throughout the ballast and down to the roadbed, so make sure to apply enough to allow this to occur. The result will be ballast bonded solidly in place, yet with the appearance of loose, individual pieces.Where I have scenic areas adjacent to, but below the level of the track, I also apply the basic ground cover, which also helps to soak up the excess glue that spreads out from the ballast line. If you're applying ballast (or ground cover) to steeply sloped areas, use a suitable-width brush to apply undiluted white glue to the slope before applying the ballast or ground foam, which will help to hold everything in place while you apply the wetting agent and the dilute white glue (these steps help to bond the top layers of material to those in contact with the unthinned glue, and also help to draw that glue up into the top layers).Depending on how deep your ballast and adjacent scenery is, the glue may take several days to dry. Don't touch it while it's still wet (you'll make a mess) and wait until it's dry before cleaning the rails - I used a mildly-abrasive block intended for polishing electrical contacts.Wayne
You're getting some good hints so far. I will also add that I don't care for Woodland Scenics ballast because I find it hard to control and glue the way I want. Real rock products are a lot easier for me to work with. One benefit is they are less likely to get flicked around and land a long ways from the track, which addresses one problem you're encountering. They also don't float when glued or get dislocated by static during application.
This HO scene has Scenic Express #40 ballast on the two center tracks, and natural sand on the others. I do allow the edges to blend somewhat, reflective of my 1970s - 80s era with machines doing ballast maintenance.
The mainline ballast here sits on a low fill built up from sand. I usually add ballast last so grass doesn't get into it, but may add fill material before grass, or sometimes just before ballasting.
This is Union Pacific's Malad branch in northern UT. Note how the ballast and fill material are intermingled. In some places vegetation has grown back where ballast spilled over it, while in others ballast is still visible quite a ways down from the track. It's OK to create a varied look, and pretty easy if you keep all the materials handy so you can blend them during application.
Hi again,
On my next big block of ballasting effort, I will put the ballast down first, and then add the surrounding ground cover. I've never done that before, and will see how it turns out.
As it stands, I've got a large amount of WS HO ballast for the mains, so I will continue using that. I do have other color/type ballast for the yards, secondary trackage, and loco terminal.
Thanks again for all your input! It really is appreciated.
mobilman44 To clarify my frustration with bits of ballast going here and there (and everywhere), it is the striking difference between the light grey "rock" and the black/brown/green groundcover that disturbs me. In looking at a scene of nice "dirt", there are some bright grey things here and there - which takes away from the enjoyment of the scene (to me of course).
To clarify my frustration with bits of ballast going here and there (and everywhere), it is the striking difference between the light grey "rock" and the black/brown/green groundcover that disturbs me. In looking at a scene of nice "dirt", there are some bright grey things here and there - which takes away from the enjoyment of the scene (to me of course).
I agree that a random piece of model ballast sticks out like a sore thumb when it gets into the scenery; the solid color, the size, and perhaps even the shape of it are all at odds with what random pieces of ballast look like in the prototype when you find them in the weeds, etc. I second the idea of ballasting first and then adding scenery.
Dave Nelson
Are you having trouble w/ laying/ spreading the WS ballast or that the medium size doesn't look right? I find that the WS used exclusively can present troubles as it is fairly light and will "flick" all over and not want to lay down right. I have used Scenik Xpress mixed w/ WS and found it lays down far better. We used that mix more for that "salt and pepper" look to the varied gray granite. One hint when spreading is to gently blow at the almost groomed ballast and do so at a sharp angle. this moves quite a few of the stray grains off the ties and web. Wetting WS ballast can also be troublesome as it almost wants to "float" once saturated. Isolpropyl alcohol solve quite a bit of this. To use "real rock ballast as Scenik Xpress or AZ rock you wil eliminate may of the problems. One note about using real rock, you can tend to end up w/ stone dusting residue on the tie tops, most of this discoloration will fade or disappear as you add the glue. I rather like the "dust" as it adds weathering/ fade to the already painted ties. Ballast is a learning experience and no one way is the right way...
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Thanks all for the comments and advice!
May I add.......... ground up oyster shells are a major source of ballast/ground cover at many of the Gulf Coast oil refineries. They really do a good job, and make use of a plentiful "waste product".
I guess it all comes down to the fact that laying ballast this time is a lot more difficult than I recall it being the last time I did it................
gmpullmanI'm not excatly sure what WS uses as their ballast stock but I've heard it is something like crushed seashells or coral or oyster shells.
For everything, there is a prototype. NYCT *does* use sea shells for its ballast.
(Click the photo for a larger view--Click the larger view for an even larger view.)
PS. There is no lion in this one.
I use med WS ballast on mine as the small even though it may be closer to scale, kinda disappears. The size you use depends on how you want to use your railroad. If you want to make it Proto 87, then small by all means but I find the average modeler dose not go to that level on a layout.
The biggest thing I notice about modeled ballast to too pristine and therefore it looks fake..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
locoi1sa I did my ballast before scenery and got grass growing out of my mainline ballast. Believe me when I say its easier to pick ballast from grass than grass from ballast. The WS ballast is crushed walnut shells. I also use a soft makeup brush to spread it and do not put too much on. Its easier to add than to take away. I also mix fine and medium together for the main line and sidings and yards get fine or sand. Pete
I did my ballast before scenery and got grass growing out of my mainline ballast. Believe me when I say its easier to pick ballast from grass than grass from ballast. The WS ballast is crushed walnut shells. I also use a soft makeup brush to spread it and do not put too much on. Its easier to add than to take away. I also mix fine and medium together for the main line and sidings and yards get fine or sand.
Pete
Ditto. Yes, of course the ballast 'comes later' after Nature has established the terrain, but Nature also imposes herself into the outer reaches of the ballast once again. I groom the beach sand I use, wet and glue it, and then cover it with painter's wide green tape. From that point on, I broadcast ground foam in at least three varieties and colours, and spray it all with dilute wood glue. When the area has dried, up comes the tape for the ballast weathering and the weathering of the rails. Some of the ground foam will be at the base of the ballast, giving the appearance that it has begun to encroach...which is what really happens out there in the real world. Heck, in the real world, wheat, rye, and barley grains sprout and begin to grow between the rails on Canada's main lines, and I'm pretty sure it happens across the border as well.
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I thought the gray blend medium ballast from WS was fine. But that is me.
At least for my area around here.
I understood it to be ground up walnut shells fragements painted gray?
I also think that some "scattered ballast" is part of the landscape around the tracks in 1:1 real life. If nought else, truant boys being boys will disassemble and scatter it about. Not enough to damage trians, but enough to find it scattered, and the RRs themselves, having watched them put in new welded rail along here on the NS lines, scatter some unintentionally around. Their machines are accurate, perhaps, but not necessarily precise with every stone?
I would not fret over it.
The idea of some rubbish, though maybe not in a "clean yard", would be a bit realistic at least for periods prior to the "litterbug" faze. I often suggest guys {when they ask} add some debris and scattered tree branches etc along/in a water way as to be realistic.
Look at it this way, does it really matter to the untrained eye? or that pesky "3 or 5 foot rule"...does it look good 3 or 5 feet away? unless you were grossly negligent in ballasting, from 5 feet awey, I may not be able to see a few grains of stray ballast in the scenery...
So throw a few stones, just don't stow thrones!
Have fun, its a hobby..
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Hi, Mobileman
It's been my experience that Woodland Scenics makes some fantastic scenery materials, ballast isn't one of them.
I'm not excatly sure what WS uses as their ballast stock but I've heard it is something like crushed seashells or coral or oyster shells. I have never been able to make a convincing scene using any of their finer gravel products. Some of the larger stuff is OK like talus and stone but Ballast... no way.
My real preference is Smith & Sons S1450-6 Penn-Ohio # 50 if you can find it. They have other colors and sizes but I like the P-O the best. The last time I ordered it I found it at Scenic Express http://www.sceneryexpress.com/products.asp?dept=1107 However, I would suggest contacting them to be sure they are still handling Smith & Sons.
Short of that, Highball makes some excellent ballast products as well. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/SearchResults.asp?searching=Y&sort=3&search=highball&show=30&page=1&brand=Highball
I have always liked the smaller sizes which seems to make a more convincing visual appearance.
These are my thoughts. Hope it helps, Ed