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Consist - Which Goes First, the Fastest or the Slowest Loco?

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:15 AM

It's bad enough that Wayne torments us with photos of his beautiful layout.   Super Angry

Now he wants to torment us further with video.   Devil

Fortunately, the link is not working for me.    Surprise

Rich

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:09 AM

Almost all of my DC-powered trains are double-headed due to the numerous grades.  As long as locomotives are relatively close in speed, there is little issue, but it is important that the additional loco(s) are actually needed to move the train.  It doesn't matter if the faster loco leads or trails, or even if it's used as a pusher, but the extra power will work much better if it's actually needed.

Here's a video of one such train - while the locos are all Bachmann 2-8-0s, I've run trains more than twice as long using various combinations of these locos with Athearn Genesis Mikados and re-motored Athearn switchers, and in various configurations, too - all on the head-end, with multiple pushers and even distributed throughout the train.  The grade shown in the video is 2.5%, on multiple curves - the equivalent of 3.44%.  I should also mention that any apparent jerkiness is due to my point-and-shoot camera, rather than the locos.


Wayne

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Posted by EMD.Don on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:38 PM

richhotrain

Don, don't spend any time thinking about what to get me for Christmas.  When you buy that Santa Fe ABBA Warbonnet, plus the ten passenger car consist, just get a matching set for me.  Is it my turn yet???

Merry Christmas

Rich

LOL...I'm on it Smile, Wink & Grin!  

Don.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:28 PM

Don, don't spend any time thinking about what to get me for Christmas.  When you buy that Santa Fe ABBA Warbonnet, plus the ten passenger car consist, just get a matching set for me.  Is it my turn yet???

Merry Christmas

Rich

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Posted by EMD.Don on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:02 PM

richhotrain

Don, a few years back, we spent our first retirement winter in a rented condo in Florida, leaving my DCC powered HO scale layout back here in Chicago.  I was playing lousy golf and missing my trains, so I started fantasizing about laying down a set of track and running some trains in DC.  I was drooling over the prospect of picking up an N scale consist , Kato's Santa Fe Warbonnet ABBA, and a string of Super Chief cars.  I never did it, so if you do, invite me over to run trains with you and your son.  Get that Warbonnet set.  As Franks says, that MRC Tech 4 can handle all four powered units.

Rich

I can see it now...we two grown adults standing around the layout all antsy and excited begging my Son "Is it my turn yet? When can I operate the train?" Laugh. Actually I am going with the Santa Fe Warbonnet set. My Son has always loved that paint scheme and I saw yesterday that the Kato cars are widely available. Come Christmas morning he will be really excited! I doubt that I will get any operating time until he goes to bed though...Smile, Wink & Grin

Happy modeling!

Don.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:59 AM

EMD.Don

I asked about the Kato F units as my Son is really interested in adding a passenger train to his layout. He likes the Santa Fe and Great Northern F3 units so I was thinking for a Christmas gift I would spring for an AB unit and eventually add some of the Kato passenger cars.

Don, a few years back, we spent our first retirement winter in a rented condo in Florida, leaving my DCC powered HO scale layout back here in Chicago.  I was playing lousy golf and missing my trains, so I started fantasizing about laying down a set of track and running some trains in DC.  I was drooling over the prospect of picking up an N scale consist , Kato's Santa Fe Warbonnet ABBA, and a string of Super Chief cars.  I never did it, so if you do, invite me over to run trains with you and your son.  Get that Warbonnet set.  As Franks says, that MRC Tech 4 can handle all four powered units.

Rich

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Posted by zstripe on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 2:33 AM

Don,

With a MRC Tech 4, You will be fine. Yes  Have Fun!

Cheers, Drinks

Frank

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Posted by singletrack100 on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:03 PM

singletrack100

richhotrain

Don, I run in DCC, but the DC guys run multiple locos in consists all the time, even different types of locos from different manufacturers.

Rich

Don, as Rich said, I am one of "those guys", running in DC and running several different mfr's together... currently running an IHC 2-8-2, Mantua 2-8-2 and a Rivarossi 0-8-0 triple-headed on a 30 car freight consist with 3+% grades, 22" curves. It all runs well together, though each one has its own "by itself" speed. Playing around with which one is where occurs to get best results, right now with the IHC in lead, Mantua 2nd and RR 3rd, but that is my layout and in HO.

The biggest thing I think is getting a consist that looks right and performs well together. There is another thread regarding which to put first, faster or slower... I think it depends on your layout and what works and looks good. Experiment and have a good time doing so, it's all good!

Duane

Sorry, I left out that that was on a Troller Autopulse Momentum 2.5 controller... my bad!

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Posted by singletrack100 on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:01 PM

richhotrain

Don, I run in DCC, but the DC guys run multiple locos in consists all the time, even different types of locos from different manufacturers.

Rich

Don, as Rich said, I am one of "those guys", running in DC and running several different mfr's together... currently running an IHC 2-8-2, Mantua 2-8-2 and a Rivarossi 0-8-0 triple-headed on a 30 car freight consist with 3+% grades, 22" curves. It all runs well together, though each one has its own "by itself" speed. Playing around with which one is where occurs to get best results, right now with the IHC in lead, Mantua 2nd and RR 3rd, but that is my layout and in HO.

The biggest thing I think is getting a consist that looks right and performs well together. There is another thread regarding which to put first, faster or slower... I think it depends on your layout and what works and looks good. Experiment and have a good time doing so, it's all good!

Duane

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Posted by EMD.Don on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:30 AM

zstripe

Don,

To answer your last sentence, you can run,more than two of anything,on a DC layout,also ABBA's,the key,lies in the fact,if your power pack,has enough output,to be able,to run,more than two at the same time. A train set power pack,may only be able to run two at the same time. And if you use the Acc. outputs,for lights,switches,etc. that greatly reduce's,your output.

Cheers, Drinks

Frank

Thanks Frank. Power is supplied by an MRC Tech 4 and we don't use the ACC output as we use caboose industry manual ground throws and nothing is lighted. So there should be ample power for MU's. I asked about the Kato F units as my Son is really interested in adding a passenger train to his layout. He likes the Santa Fe and Great Northern F3 units so I was thinking for a Christmas gift I would spring for an AB unit and eventually add some of the Kato passenger cars. Seeing as how both A and B units are powered, I want to make sure that they will operate properly. Sounds like they will. Thanks guys! 

Happy modeling!

Don.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."

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Posted by zstripe on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:51 AM

Don,

To answer your last sentence, you can run,more than two of anything,on a DC layout,also ABBA's,the key,lies in the fact,if your power pack,has enough output,to be able,to run,more than two at the same time. A train set power pack,may only be able to run two at the same time. And if you use the Acc. outputs,for lights,switches,etc. that greatly reduce's,your output.

Cheers, Drinks

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:49 AM

Don, I run in DCC, but the DC guys run multiple locos in consists all the time, even different types of locos from different manufacturers.

Rich

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Posted by EMD.Don on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:41 AM

O.k. time for the dumb question of the day...coming to you at my expense Dunce On my Son's N Scale layout we operate on DC. Before I switched my HO layout from DC to DCC I used to use dummy locomotives when I operated it with multi-unit consists. But for his N Scale layout he operates all modern equipment (Kato Sd70ACe's, AC4400's, Sd40-2's etc etc) and we have no dummy's. He has wanted to use two locomotives at one time on one consist but I have been leary of him damaging one or both of the locomotives, both being powered of course. So, can you operate two comparable locomotives (speed wise) together on DC or is this not advisable? Example: two Kato Sd70ACe's. In that same vane, I see that Kato offers powered A units and powered B units for their N Scale F series of locomotives. This would suggest that you can operate multiple powered units on DC. Would that mean that Kato has manufactured both the A and B units such that they are closely matched in speed/power? If so, then theoretically the modeler could use not only a Kato AB consist, but an AA, ABB, ABBA etc etc correct? Thanks all...I appreciate your thoughts, insight, and time! 

Happy modeling all!

Don.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, November 11, 2013 9:42 PM

As might be expected, there seems to be no definitive answer.

Some say put the fastest loco in front.

Some say put the slowest loco in front.

Others say it doesn't matter.

My sense is that it doesn't matter so long as they are running at reasonably similar speeds.

Rich

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Posted by alco_fan on Monday, November 11, 2013 7:05 PM

zstripe
Actually, my post had nothing to do with you,, It was a pun,joke,between Rich and I from his other thread. He just didn't catch it.

Perhaps you guys should deal with your unrequited feelings for one another in private, since the rest of us seem to be disturbing your tete-a-tete Whistling

Cheers

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Posted by zstripe on Monday, November 11, 2013 6:42 PM

alco_fan

zstripe
I believe He said that ABBA,consist,that the B's were faster,that the A's,so he would have to have,BBAA, NO!? Or, AABB ?

If you read closely, that was just theoretical. In any case, why does the OP not use his DCC to speed match? 

Alco_Fan,

Actually, my post had nothing to do with you,, It was a pun,joke,between Rich and I from his other thread. He just didn't catch it.Whistling

Cheers, Drinks

Frank

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Posted by selector on Monday, November 11, 2013 4:40 PM

To me it sounds intuitive to put the slowest one first and let the rear take up the slightly larger share of the pulling.

Thinking about it a bit further, if you put the fastest in the lead, it will lessen the burden on the trailing locomotive by relieving it of some of its towing job, which will encourage the slower trailer to maintain the same speed.

Mind you, that could also happen if they were switched.

Ergo, it don't matter.  Only if you have a pusher at the rear and it tends to cause problems by being too aggressive at a given throttle setting.  In that case, you'll be shoving your cars off the rails or you get couplers in the way of each other.

-Crandell

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Posted by alco_fan on Monday, November 11, 2013 4:14 PM

BATMAN
I have a fifty foot loop I use to speed match and can get them very close. Maybe within a 3 or 4 inches on a good day after one lap.

That is plenty close for operating and certainly good enough for me. I never said I got them "perfect", and that is not necessary.

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, November 11, 2013 2:49 PM

alco_fan
If you read closely, that was just theoretical. In any case, why does the OP not use his DCC to speed match? 

Alco Fan

Just how close can you yourself get them when speed matching. I have a fifty foot loop I use to speed match and can get them very close. Maybe within a 3 or 4 inches on a good day after one lap. I find matching different brands a bit more challenging even still.

What's your secret to getting them perfect? I have never seen this done, even by the most experienced.

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, November 11, 2013 2:29 PM

alco_fan

why does the OP not use his DCC to speed match? 

I actually did, alco_fan, but even with speed matching, one seems to outgain the other just a little bit, so I wanted to find out what others do.

Rich

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Posted by alco_fan on Monday, November 11, 2013 2:01 PM

zstripe
I believe He said that ABBA,consist,that the B's were faster,that the A's,so he would have to have,BBAA, NO!? Or, AABB ?

If you read closely, that was just theoretical. In any case, why does the OP not use his DCC to speed match? 

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Posted by zstripe on Monday, November 11, 2013 1:54 PM

I believe He said that ABBA,consist,that the B's were faster,that the A's,so he would have to have,BBAA, NO!? Or, AABB ? Laugh Laugh

Could not restrain myself, any longer. Clown

Cheers, Drinks

Frank

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Posted by Motley on Monday, November 11, 2013 1:45 PM

Sure you can speed match them, but they are really never run absolutely perfect same speeds, from speed step one, to full throttle.

I found if the slowest loco is in front, it binds on the couplers around curves. So I put the faster loco in front.

Also when pulling a long consist the weight of the train evenly distributes out the tension on the consisted locos.

Michael


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Posted by alco_fan on Monday, November 11, 2013 1:32 PM

I like the faster one in front if there is a small difference ... but I thought the original poster had DCC. Why not just speed match them?

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Monday, November 11, 2013 12:53 PM

If you put the slowest one in front they will never uncouple.

Dave

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, November 11, 2013 12:38 PM

It only makes a difference when running the Loco's by themselves. Once a load is put on, unless they are grossly mismatched they should all be pulling.

Just my observations.

Brent

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Posted by wp8thsub on Monday, November 11, 2013 12:11 PM

I'm not sure it matters at all.  The way operations work on my layout, a consist is as likely to run one direction as the other, so the slightly faster loco spends about half its time leading, the other half trailing.  I haven't noticed there really being a performance issue either way.

Rob Spangler

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Posted by mobilman44 on Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM

Of course you need to speed match them as best you can - but one will always be faster than the other.

My thought is to have the slowest one first.   This way, the couplers between the units are always compressed.   With the faster one first, it will be trying to pull away off and on and bang back and forth with the second unit. 

Now that probably doesn't mean a hill of beans, but if I had to pick one or the other, the slower one would be first.

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

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Posted by Train Modeler on Monday, November 11, 2013 10:18 AM

My locos are all about 1 smph or less within each other for the class of locos that get MUd.  So, it doesn't really matter.   But, back before DCC speed matching I would put the fastest in front to help through switches and avoid derails.      I would not put 2 locos together that are significantly different in speed as it's not good on either loco or the track.    For example, no sense in sliding wheels.

Richard

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