Yeah i was just looking at sites about it. But I don't think it be best for my situation. due to the Small size and the tight curves. if my layout was bigger I would probably go this route. But i think with the switch back and 9.75 curves, it might be to much to try. I might just do the door skin where i can cut it into shape. and just put foam between the risers for support. And being's I am doing code 55 i will be glue the track down not nailing it. But it sounds like a good idea. Just to much for my layout.
Bushel86 just one question how do you make the curves on the risers?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Thanks for the idea's And as far as scenery i plan on using foam and the plast cloth method Beings I kinda changed my layout design a little bit its 2'8" x 5' with a 2'8" x 3 foot kicker to make an L shape I Don't need much and the masonite idea sounds good. i will look into it. thanks for the idea. just one question how do you make the curves on the risers?
I think spline is wonderful stuff. I used hardboard (masonite). You get over 40' of roadbed for under $10.00. It transitions so smoothly it's hard to tell where the ups and downs and rights and lefts actually start. I used 1" wide 1/4" thick x 7 strips wide for mine.
I had a bit of a problem getting the tops even on the first couple of strips. To resolve the issue I clamped the entire strip firm to the next one making sure it was dead even at the top. I then would unclamp about two feet at one end and glue that with the glue gun. Once that was set I unclamped the rest of it and glued away. It went back against the next one the way it had been clamped. Make sure you put a screw through every foot or so. Drill a pilot hole first.
Using a rasp and a small level I put a bit of super elevation into a curve or two easily. Course sandpaper would do the same.
After having layouts built with all the methods I wanted to experiment a bit and try something new, so I used foam and spline on this one. So far I am delighted with the results. I have about 65' of spline on this layout. At $.15 a linear foot, the price sure beats the foam risers and unlike plywood there is little waste.
One more thing, when using spline you don't need a cork or foam roadbed as you caulk your track directly to the spline. If you are interested in seeing more go to Google images and search "spline roadbed". It is another option.
Here you can see the beveled shoulder of the spline roadbed.
Here I am raising the foam up to the roadbed. I am doing this all over the layout. My hills are hollow.
You can use more than one method on the same layout. For scenery I have used foam, concrete, grout, thinset and plaster of Paris dipped sheets and towels. Think different products! It can solve a lot of problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXrYeMHw5j0&context=C3252b13ADOEgsToPDskLU1ohLLwpcdro7vyvEP1JQ
Good luck.
Bushel86 Yeah my idea is Based on the possem valley done by Jean Simonet, on how he did his. He built his open grid benchwork with wood riser, He used plywood as the cookie cutter method then put foam between the bench work and the plywood on his grades. he has a website that has a photo of his benchwork. the only difference is just wondering if i can get away with using luan.
Yeah my idea is Based on the possem valley done by Jean Simonet, on how he did his. He built his open grid benchwork with wood riser, He used plywood as the cookie cutter method then put foam between the bench work and the plywood on his grades. he has a website that has a photo of his benchwork. the only difference is just wondering if i can get away with using luan.
Oh good, there is some public history about it. Again, just speculating....I think foam is considered rigid enough for layouts, provided the support joists, or risers, are close enough together. The plywood attached to the foam is more for holding track nails and possibly switchmachine mounts and things like that, where the screws and nails wouldn't hold too well in the foam itself. Folks tend to use caulk to attach things to the foam subroadbed for that reason. There are just preferences and a comfort factor too.
I would think luan would give enough bite for a nail, and anything thinner is probably wasted effort, but others with more experience should probably weigh in.
- Douglas
Bushel86 Well my thoughts on the door skin is this. just a thought really. But my center braciing will be 1 foot apart. I would plan on putting foam under the skin to give support so it would not sag. I have carpentry skills Cutting boards is not a problem for me. The main problem is Cost. I already have the lumber to build my frame. I am just figuring out what to use for a subroadbed and if i buy Plywood I'm going to be wasting half of it. and i can't see wasting money if their is other options... What about if i use luan, I heard it can be noisy. and i plan on bracing under the whole subroadbed so nothing sags. do to i am building a logging layout in the mountains it will have grades so i have to brace regardless. I just need something really that will form to the grades that i can plant my cork and track on. and have smooth transitions from grade to grade. thats why i figure something flimsy enough to take the grades and i don't have to fight it. but yet sturdy enough to keep it smooth in transition, and if i have to support the whole underside with foam i have no problem. I don't want to use foam as a subroadbed just because it's to flimsy for me. (more of a comfort thing than anything)
Well my thoughts on the door skin is this. just a thought really. But my center braciing will be 1 foot apart. I would plan on putting foam under the skin to give support so it would not sag. I have carpentry skills Cutting boards is not a problem for me. The main problem is Cost. I already have the lumber to build my frame. I am just figuring out what to use for a subroadbed and if i buy Plywood I'm going to be wasting half of it. and i can't see wasting money if their is other options...
What about if i use luan, I heard it can be noisy. and i plan on bracing under the whole subroadbed so nothing sags. do to i am building a logging layout in the mountains it will have grades so i have to brace regardless.
I just need something really that will form to the grades that i can plant my cork and track on. and have smooth transitions from grade to grade. thats why i figure something flimsy enough to take the grades and i don't have to fight it. but yet sturdy enough to keep it smooth in transition, and if i have to support the whole underside with foam i have no problem. I don't want to use foam as a subroadbed just because it's to flimsy for me. (more of a comfort thing than anything)
If I understand you correctly, you are attempting to build cookie cutter benchwork by using sort of a foam and door skin lamination for the subroadbed. That is beyond my carpentry skills and experience, and I have never heard that being done before. That's not a criticsm, I just think that the replies you get will be based upon speculation and not relays of actual experiences.
Yea, if money is tight and you have to work with stuff you have around, you may have to just experiment yourself to see what works best with what you have. That's the best answer I can give at this point.
My advice would be to use whatever lumber is the straightest, and whichever lumber is the lightest (within reason).
2x4's tend to be harder to work with than 1x products, especially if there is a bow or twist to them. 1x product can be straightened if one end is firmly attached as you work with it.
If you took 1x2's and used glue and finish nails to form an L, and were careful to wring out any bows or twists as you nailed along the way, you would have rock solid pieces with which to build any sort of benchwork, legs too. The opposing angles give the pieces strength from each side, and the 2x surface gives enough area to attach screws to.
Some will advocate ripping plywood or using premium grades. That's all fine, but the end goal is to try to use the straightest lumber you can get. There are several ways to that end.
Edit: Just saw your post about door skin. I would use at least 1/4 inch plywood, probably 1/2. Besides being a bit flimsy, I think the thinner skin may be susceptible to drumming as the trains rolled over it, which may cause the layout to be noisier than you want.
Bushel86 I have seen where people have used door skins as a sub road bed. I was thinking of doing the same thing by doubling the door skin. i do plan on having grades with risers with the 1/8 door skin (luan) double up as the base with foam on top for sound. my layout will be permanent if it would ever be moved it might only be moved once. Will the Door skin work as the sub-road bed with grade? Also I will not be leaning on this layout beings it isn't over 2 1/2 feet wide so no weight will be put on the layout but scenery.
I have seen where people have used door skins as a sub road bed. I was thinking of doing the same thing by doubling the door skin. i do plan on having grades with risers with the 1/8 door skin (luan) double up as the base with foam on top for sound. my layout will be permanent if it would ever be moved it might only be moved once.
Will the Door skin work as the sub-road bed with grade? Also I will not be leaning on this layout beings it isn't over 2 1/2 feet wide so no weight will be put on the layout but scenery.
I have never heard of door skin (typically 1/8" veneer) being used as a sub-roadbed. There are those who use door skin for roadbed in HOn3. The door skin is used as the roadbed over foam (subroadbed) in HOn3 module construction. The door skin can be spiked into for handlaid track, and is a more realistic thickness for a roadbed in HO narrow gauge when the surrounding scenery is added.
Foam can and has been used cookie-cutter style, and just like 1/2" or thicker plywood, yields nice vertical transitions because of the inherent rigidity. Just like plywood, foam is actually more rigid when bent into a curve than just laid flat horizontally.
I don't believe the door skin would be nearly rigid enough to avoid any sag at any reasonable riser spacing. It's not just the weight of the models that subroadbed has to stand up to. It must not sag over time - plywood, particle board, 1x lumber, and similar all sag with time if supports are not close enough. 1/100" sag between supports is enough to cause problems with trackwork. 1/40" is the depth of an RP25 flange. And like it or not, eventually you lean on a layout. And if you have some clumsiness like I do, you will eventually fall against it. So my benchwork must be able to take a sudden impact of about half my weight without completely falling apart. And sag less than 1/200" over time.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Bushel86to do a cookie cuter benchwork.
A handful of pictures should do the trick for starters:
[1] Bing
[2] Google
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Ok i have another question. I have decided to do the open grid but instead of using foam i have decided to do a cookie cuter benchwork.
I have had to put off the building of my layout due to weather. I should be able to get started in a few weeks on it.
I know you feel unsure about cutting down a HCD, but its not that hard. My entire 15x20 around the wall O scale layout is based on HCDs on 1.5" pvc legs and its very solid.
I used a straight 2x4 as a sawing guide with a jig saw. Once I made the cut, I used a sharp 1" chisel to peel off the veneer from the cutoff piece. I was left with the edge plug. I then used the chisel to cut away the cardboard support inside the edge of the door piece I planned to use, and only far enough into the door to accommodate the plug I'd made from the cutoff. I used carpenters glue on the plug edges, inserted it into the door piece I planned to use, and clamped it between 2x4s. 2 days later you couldn't tell that it wasn't made that way. I topped the remade HCD with 2" pink extruded foam glued down with PL300.
The best part was that I got most of my doors as damaged from Menards for $5 each.
Dan
My vote is for 40" benchwork, my last layout was 36" and just a tad short.
I would build legs as ironrooster suggested. The legs on my old layout were a 1/3 and and 1/4 glued and nailed in an L as ironrooster suggested and they were very strong stable and easily attached to the inside corners of the benchwork frame.
Good luck, and show us some photo's,
Aflyer
Bushel86I haven't decided on a height yet. but I am ether thinking of setting it to were i can work on it sitting down or having at chest height.
This would be apx. 40" for a two reasons: 1st - Sitting down --- It is eye level -- Good for viewing the trains in operation. 2nd - Workdesks, 2-shelf bookcases, etc. with plastic-glides for "sliding out from under" are apx. 30" in height -- Leaving apx. 10" to the layout's zero elevation at tabletop -- With easy access to work underneath the benchwork.
My bench work is made from 2X3 as far as plywood they do sell discounted stuff i bought the sheets i needed at a good price my layout is 6 X 12 it is heavy but i dont intend to move it or move
I haven't decided on a height yet. but I am ether thinking of setting it to were i can work on it sitting down or having at chest height. I am also thinking about using metal brackets to help support the legs and I am slowly getting it all together and with everyone's help it has put a new Perspective on how i plan to build it. thanks for the help and tips.
Bushel86 Yeah i was thinking about using the scrap 2x4's i got lying around from when i built my aquarium stand. and using them as the legson each corner. and using 1x4 around the bottom like i did with the aquarium stand and at least then i know it will be stable.
Yeah i was thinking about using the scrap 2x4's i got lying around from when i built my aquarium stand. and using them as the legson each corner. and using 1x4 around the bottom like i did with the aquarium stand and at least then i know it will be stable.
Regardless of what you use, or how you use them, here is another thought-provoking idea to think about:
Make SURE the legs are cut to a length that will result in a height of the layout that will be easiest for you to work and play on...without leaning over or bending too much which may stress your back.
I set mine about mid-chest level for me so I don't have to bend or lean to work on it.
Workds for me.
ANd often when someone asks "how high should I build my layout?" that suggestion is given by oldies in the hobby.
Just an FYI
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
MisterBeasley It's a bit of an aside, but when I started building benchwork I bought a tool at Home Depot for clamping pieces of wood perfectly square while gluing and/or screwing them together. This made the frame-building job much easier. Jesus was a carpenter. That's why I use his name so often when I'm building benchwork.
It's a bit of an aside, but when I started building benchwork I bought a tool at Home Depot for clamping pieces of wood perfectly square while gluing and/or screwing them together. This made the frame-building job much easier.
Jesus was a carpenter. That's why I use his name so often when I'm building benchwork.
Bushel86still debating on how i will build my legs.
Note: Everyone here will have a preferred method of building legs.
My preferred MRR leg building is simple -- To attach to your 28"x60" (1"x4") box-grid...
Example to build four legs:
If the height to the top of the benchwork is 40" -- Construct four 40" legs (actually eight 40" pieces) to fit into each benchwork corner. Each leg consists of two pieces of 1"x4" wood cut to a 40" length, and placed into an L-shape lengthwise. Use screws -- Not glue.
Then, fasten the inside top of each leg into each benchwork corner -- Again using screws, not glue. Each leg-corner side will have 3-5 screws -- Meaning a total of 6-10 screws per leg at the box-grid benchwork. Rock-solid legs is "an understatement."
If the floor is uneven, screw-in leg adjusters, may be used on each leg bottom for leveling.
Yeah i agree I got all the tools i need. I just need the weather to be supportive so i can get the lumber and start working on it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
After careful planning and considerations. I decided to go with 1x4 table top. still debating on how i will build my legs. But at least i got part of the benchwork planed out. It's a start anyway.
You could just double up the foam. Me I used 1x4 pine frame and 2" beaded foam, works fine, my layout is 15'x30' plus.
A number of my benchwork sections are 28"x8'. I built them using 1x4's with cross members on 16" centers. I use 2 1x4's in an L shape for the legs at each corner, but you could use 2x4's instead. Use some 1x2's for diagonal bracing at each corner as well. The 1x4's are stiff enough that only legs at the corners are needed, although you could also put them in 16" from each end where there is a cross brace.
I put a 1/2" plywood top on it, but you could probably use 2" foam or 1/4" plywood with 1" foam.
You don't have to use the best wood for this. But avoid the cdx stuff. I used plywood sheathing that sells for less than $20 a sheet - it's reasonably smooth (not cabinet grade of course) and works fine - you're going to bury the stuff under track and scenery anyway. Usually I can get the cheaper 1x4's to work also - be picky on these, sight down them to make sure they are straight.
Good luck
Paul
Thanks for all the reply's. i have learned a lot of different methods, and from what i gather It's really a personal preference. And each one is a great idea. I haven't bought any wood as of yet. I am still processing everything. I think i am going to hit the drawing board today and come up with a plan of attack. Thank you for all the insight and help. and the quick reply's.
I have the building skills to build with Lumber. But Cutting a door seems Pointless to me. and i feel it would weaken the over all structure of the door. Tho it would be a good idea and i have thought about it. I just honestly don't feel secure enough on cutting the door.