Hello everyone. I am in the process of building a N scale layout. I use to be in HO, but due to space I converted to N scale. I am looking to build a 28" x 6' layout. My problem i am facing is planning my benchwork. I plan on using 2" foam as a base for my layout. I have a HCD that is 36x80, I am not skilled enough to trim it to size, nor do i want to. Eventually It will be part of the layout once room becomes available. I can not afford Plywood, not at 50 dollors a sheet for a 1/2". I been doing research as to the toughness of the foam. My layout will be a logging layout so it will have foam base mountains. I am trying to keep it light as possible. yet sturdy.
My options I was thinking were of 3 choices. 1.) to do an open grid, (but the questions would be what size wood should i use? and how far apart should my center supports be?)
2.) i have a dresser That i thought about using as a center leg with a open grid table top above it with angled braces attached to each end for support.
3.) doing a L girder Bench.
But all 3 questions still plague me as far as size of wood. and how much is to much?
The reason i ask on wood is I built my aquarium stand using 2x4's after a lot of research and looking at ones in stores that are made with cheap particle board, that hold up 500 pound or more. and last 5 years if kept up. so I found that i should brace heavy in that respect. But my layout will not even be a fraction of the weight of my aquarium. So is 1x4's necessary for something that will barely weigh 50lbs? I do not plan on leaning on it or anything like that due to the size i will be able to reach everything. and my turnouts will all be ground throws, nothing fancy. so any suggestion's, opinions? I just like to get a feel of other's and what they think.
Hi
and a big fat to you.
I built a 3.5 foot x 5.1 foot HO scale layout that I wanted to be super lightweight as I know someday it will be moved, and I wouldn't be able to handle a heavy layout.
>I used an open grid with extruded foam {blue stuff, though the pink would work..as long as it is NOT the white beaded flimsy stuff}. I used 1x4s for the four outer boarders, and 1x2s for the internal supports, set 1 foot on center. I chose the premium 1x2s for an "assured" quality {not the el cheapos meant for hidden furring strips} . 1 foot on center might even be overkill, but I thought it might make it sturdier to do 1 foot spacing.
>You can use a dresser if you like, but at 5.1 feet long, my layout only has 4 legs {2x3 studs cut to length for the height I wanted} at the four outer corners. 6 foot should mean little difference. Since I used the extruded foam over 1 foot on center, the 5.1 foot span seems perfectly OK,, unless you plan on climbing on it, which I don't do. The dresser in the center would be extra support, though, and GREAT for storing MRRing stuff!.
> You can do an L girder if you like, but again, I just used 1x4s and 1x2s open grid with foam on top of it, simple and good enough for my layout. I glued the foam with foam sensitvie glue to the 1x2s tops {the 1 inch side} and it's very sturdy. I screwed the ends of the 1x2s into the 1x4 frame sides for "extra sturdy" instead of just gluing them to the outside boarders.. Also helps keep it from "racking and twisiting".
Hope this helps you!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Hi, and welcome to the Forum !
Some of us have been around the hobby for many years (I started in 1955) and built a number of layouts.
There is a lot of different ways to approach building a layout, and we all "do our thing". But one aspect I think most all will agree upon is to take your time, use quality materials, and "do it right".
For the size you are talking about, I would consider 2x4s for corner and also center legs. The layout is a bit long to have just corner legs. I would used "ripped" 1x4s for lateral supports. Ripped 1x4s come out to about 1 3/4 inches wide, whereas store bought 1x2s are really only 1 1/2 inch wide. The extra 1/4 makes a big difference.
Also, I would also use some 1/2 inch plywood for the base. Personally I prefer sheet cork or cork roadbed on top of the base, but some folks like foam. In any case, just using foam will not stand the test of time or any kind of abuse.
Hey, take your time, plan it out, ask questions of the Forum, and the result will be definitely worthwhile!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Your benchwork is the foundation of your layout. If you cut corners and find out later that it is inadequate you will have to tear out the entire layout and start over. If you NEED to save money, do it in an area that can be easily upgraded when times get better.
A 28x80 inch hollow core door is only about $20 and makes a good solid base.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I built this simple table for Phase 1 of my layout:
It's 5x12 feet. The outer frame is made of 1x4 lumber. The inner stringers are 1x3 lumber, spaced at 16-inch intervals and aligned with the bottom of the 1x4 outer frame. This lets the 2-inch pink foam sit down inside the outer frame, protecting the foam's edge. The legs are 2x3, and the triangular gussets holding the legs steady are cut from scrap 3/4 inch plywood. The simple act of staining and polyurethaning the frame makes it much more presentable as a piece of furniture in the train room.
2 inches of pink foam is stiff enough for HO trains. You don't need any plywood base beneath it. The 16-inch stringers above provide plenty of support, even over the 5-foot width of the layout.
I built this with casters on the legs so that I could move it around the train room, which is also the family room. Even fully loaded with scenery, track and trains, I can still move it easily.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The 28 X 80 hollow core door is the best way to start. Cut one end off the door to get it the length you need and make a plug to go into the end you cut off, then glue it in.
You say that you don't have the skills to trim it to size. Well it only takes a saw and a square. If you are going to be in Model Railroading for any length of time, you need to learn these skills or you might as well quit now. Get a basic wood working book from one of the Big Box stores and read it. There should be many techniques in it that will tell you how to do things. If you have a hard time choosing a book, ask one of the associates for help. All skills are learned by reading and doing, or watching other people do them and then doing them yourself. No one is born with them. We have all been through this learning process.
Once you have the door cut to size, I would then glue the 2 inch foam to it. This will make a very sturdy layout base. If you want to put legs on it, you can use 2 x 2's at the corners. Some cross braces or triangular leg braces will make it sturdy.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I have the building skills to build with Lumber. But Cutting a door seems Pointless to me. and i feel it would weaken the over all structure of the door. Tho it would be a good idea and i have thought about it. I just honestly don't feel secure enough on cutting the door.
Thanks for all the reply's. i have learned a lot of different methods, and from what i gather It's really a personal preference. And each one is a great idea. I haven't bought any wood as of yet. I am still processing everything. I think i am going to hit the drawing board today and come up with a plan of attack. Thank you for all the insight and help. and the quick reply's.
A number of my benchwork sections are 28"x8'. I built them using 1x4's with cross members on 16" centers. I use 2 1x4's in an L shape for the legs at each corner, but you could use 2x4's instead. Use some 1x2's for diagonal bracing at each corner as well. The 1x4's are stiff enough that only legs at the corners are needed, although you could also put them in 16" from each end where there is a cross brace.
I put a 1/2" plywood top on it, but you could probably use 2" foam or 1/4" plywood with 1" foam.
You don't have to use the best wood for this. But avoid the cdx stuff. I used plywood sheathing that sells for less than $20 a sheet - it's reasonably smooth (not cabinet grade of course) and works fine - you're going to bury the stuff under track and scenery anyway. Usually I can get the cheaper 1x4's to work also - be picky on these, sight down them to make sure they are straight.
Good luck
Paul
You could just double up the foam. Me I used 1x4 pine frame and 2" beaded foam, works fine, my layout is 15'x30' plus.
After careful planning and considerations. I decided to go with 1x4 table top. still debating on how i will build my legs. But at least i got part of the benchwork planed out. It's a start anyway.
It's a bit of an aside, but when I started building benchwork I bought a tool at Home Depot for clamping pieces of wood perfectly square while gluing and/or screwing them together. This made the frame-building job much easier.
Jesus was a carpenter. That's why I use his name so often when I'm building benchwork.
Yeah i agree I got all the tools i need. I just need the weather to be supportive so i can get the lumber and start working on it.
Bushel86still debating on how i will build my legs.
Note: Everyone here will have a preferred method of building legs.
My preferred MRR leg building is simple -- To attach to your 28"x60" (1"x4") box-grid...
Example to build four legs:
If the height to the top of the benchwork is 40" -- Construct four 40" legs (actually eight 40" pieces) to fit into each benchwork corner. Each leg consists of two pieces of 1"x4" wood cut to a 40" length, and placed into an L-shape lengthwise. Use screws -- Not glue.
Then, fasten the inside top of each leg into each benchwork corner -- Again using screws, not glue. Each leg-corner side will have 3-5 screws -- Meaning a total of 6-10 screws per leg at the box-grid benchwork. Rock-solid legs is "an understatement."
If the floor is uneven, screw-in leg adjusters, may be used on each leg bottom for leveling.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Yeah i was thinking about using the scrap 2x4's i got lying around from when i built my aquarium stand. and using them as the legson each corner. and using 1x4 around the bottom like i did with the aquarium stand and at least then i know it will be stable.
MisterBeasley It's a bit of an aside, but when I started building benchwork I bought a tool at Home Depot for clamping pieces of wood perfectly square while gluing and/or screwing them together. This made the frame-building job much easier. Jesus was a carpenter. That's why I use his name so often when I'm building benchwork.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Bushel86 Yeah i was thinking about using the scrap 2x4's i got lying around from when i built my aquarium stand. and using them as the legson each corner. and using 1x4 around the bottom like i did with the aquarium stand and at least then i know it will be stable.
Regardless of what you use, or how you use them, here is another thought-provoking idea to think about:
Make SURE the legs are cut to a length that will result in a height of the layout that will be easiest for you to work and play on...without leaning over or bending too much which may stress your back.
I set mine about mid-chest level for me so I don't have to bend or lean to work on it.
Workds for me.
ANd often when someone asks "how high should I build my layout?" that suggestion is given by oldies in the hobby.
Just an FYI
I haven't decided on a height yet. but I am ether thinking of setting it to were i can work on it sitting down or having at chest height. I am also thinking about using metal brackets to help support the legs and I am slowly getting it all together and with everyone's help it has put a new Perspective on how i plan to build it. thanks for the help and tips.
My bench work is made from 2X3 as far as plywood they do sell discounted stuff i bought the sheets i needed at a good price my layout is 6 X 12 it is heavy but i dont intend to move it or move
Bushel86I haven't decided on a height yet. but I am ether thinking of setting it to were i can work on it sitting down or having at chest height.
This would be apx. 40" for a two reasons: 1st - Sitting down --- It is eye level -- Good for viewing the trains in operation. 2nd - Workdesks, 2-shelf bookcases, etc. with plastic-glides for "sliding out from under" are apx. 30" in height -- Leaving apx. 10" to the layout's zero elevation at tabletop -- With easy access to work underneath the benchwork.
My vote is for 40" benchwork, my last layout was 36" and just a tad short.
I would build legs as ironrooster suggested. The legs on my old layout were a 1/3 and and 1/4 glued and nailed in an L as ironrooster suggested and they were very strong stable and easily attached to the inside corners of the benchwork frame.
Good luck, and show us some photo's,
Aflyer
I know you feel unsure about cutting down a HCD, but its not that hard. My entire 15x20 around the wall O scale layout is based on HCDs on 1.5" pvc legs and its very solid.
I used a straight 2x4 as a sawing guide with a jig saw. Once I made the cut, I used a sharp 1" chisel to peel off the veneer from the cutoff piece. I was left with the edge plug. I then used the chisel to cut away the cardboard support inside the edge of the door piece I planned to use, and only far enough into the door to accommodate the plug I'd made from the cutoff. I used carpenters glue on the plug edges, inserted it into the door piece I planned to use, and clamped it between 2x4s. 2 days later you couldn't tell that it wasn't made that way. I topped the remade HCD with 2" pink extruded foam glued down with PL300.
The best part was that I got most of my doors as damaged from Menards for $5 each.
Dan
I have had to put off the building of my layout due to weather. I should be able to get started in a few weeks on it.
Ok i have another question. I have decided to do the open grid but instead of using foam i have decided to do a cookie cuter benchwork.
I have seen where people have used door skins as a sub road bed. I was thinking of doing the same thing by doubling the door skin. i do plan on having grades with risers with the 1/8 door skin (luan) double up as the base with foam on top for sound. my layout will be permanent if it would ever be moved it might only be moved once.
Will the Door skin work as the sub-road bed with grade? Also I will not be leaning on this layout beings it isn't over 2 1/2 feet wide so no weight will be put on the layout but scenery.
Bushel86to do a cookie cuter benchwork.
A handful of pictures should do the trick for starters:
[1] Bing
[2] Google
Bushel86 I have seen where people have used door skins as a sub road bed. I was thinking of doing the same thing by doubling the door skin. i do plan on having grades with risers with the 1/8 door skin (luan) double up as the base with foam on top for sound. my layout will be permanent if it would ever be moved it might only be moved once. Will the Door skin work as the sub-road bed with grade? Also I will not be leaning on this layout beings it isn't over 2 1/2 feet wide so no weight will be put on the layout but scenery.
I have never heard of door skin (typically 1/8" veneer) being used as a sub-roadbed. There are those who use door skin for roadbed in HOn3. The door skin is used as the roadbed over foam (subroadbed) in HOn3 module construction. The door skin can be spiked into for handlaid track, and is a more realistic thickness for a roadbed in HO narrow gauge when the surrounding scenery is added.
Foam can and has been used cookie-cutter style, and just like 1/2" or thicker plywood, yields nice vertical transitions because of the inherent rigidity. Just like plywood, foam is actually more rigid when bent into a curve than just laid flat horizontally.
I don't believe the door skin would be nearly rigid enough to avoid any sag at any reasonable riser spacing. It's not just the weight of the models that subroadbed has to stand up to. It must not sag over time - plywood, particle board, 1x lumber, and similar all sag with time if supports are not close enough. 1/100" sag between supports is enough to cause problems with trackwork. 1/40" is the depth of an RP25 flange. And like it or not, eventually you lean on a layout. And if you have some clumsiness like I do, you will eventually fall against it. So my benchwork must be able to take a sudden impact of about half my weight without completely falling apart. And sag less than 1/200" over time.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
My advice would be to use whatever lumber is the straightest, and whichever lumber is the lightest (within reason).
2x4's tend to be harder to work with than 1x products, especially if there is a bow or twist to them. 1x product can be straightened if one end is firmly attached as you work with it.
If you took 1x2's and used glue and finish nails to form an L, and were careful to wring out any bows or twists as you nailed along the way, you would have rock solid pieces with which to build any sort of benchwork, legs too. The opposing angles give the pieces strength from each side, and the 2x surface gives enough area to attach screws to.
Some will advocate ripping plywood or using premium grades. That's all fine, but the end goal is to try to use the straightest lumber you can get. There are several ways to that end.
Edit: Just saw your post about door skin. I would use at least 1/4 inch plywood, probably 1/2. Besides being a bit flimsy, I think the thinner skin may be susceptible to drumming as the trains rolled over it, which may cause the layout to be noisier than you want.
- Douglas
Well my thoughts on the door skin is this. just a thought really. But my center braciing will be 1 foot apart. I would plan on putting foam under the skin to give support so it would not sag. I have carpentry skills Cutting boards is not a problem for me. The main problem is Cost. I already have the lumber to build my frame. I am just figuring out what to use for a subroadbed and if i buy Plywood I'm going to be wasting half of it. and i can't see wasting money if their is other options...
What about if i use luan, I heard it can be noisy. and i plan on bracing under the whole subroadbed so nothing sags. do to i am building a logging layout in the mountains it will have grades so i have to brace regardless.
I just need something really that will form to the grades that i can plant my cork and track on. and have smooth transitions from grade to grade. thats why i figure something flimsy enough to take the grades and i don't have to fight it. but yet sturdy enough to keep it smooth in transition, and if i have to support the whole underside with foam i have no problem. I don't want to use foam as a subroadbed just because it's to flimsy for me. (more of a comfort thing than anything)
Bushel86 Well my thoughts on the door skin is this. just a thought really. But my center braciing will be 1 foot apart. I would plan on putting foam under the skin to give support so it would not sag. I have carpentry skills Cutting boards is not a problem for me. The main problem is Cost. I already have the lumber to build my frame. I am just figuring out what to use for a subroadbed and if i buy Plywood I'm going to be wasting half of it. and i can't see wasting money if their is other options... What about if i use luan, I heard it can be noisy. and i plan on bracing under the whole subroadbed so nothing sags. do to i am building a logging layout in the mountains it will have grades so i have to brace regardless. I just need something really that will form to the grades that i can plant my cork and track on. and have smooth transitions from grade to grade. thats why i figure something flimsy enough to take the grades and i don't have to fight it. but yet sturdy enough to keep it smooth in transition, and if i have to support the whole underside with foam i have no problem. I don't want to use foam as a subroadbed just because it's to flimsy for me. (more of a comfort thing than anything)
If I understand you correctly, you are attempting to build cookie cutter benchwork by using sort of a foam and door skin lamination for the subroadbed. That is beyond my carpentry skills and experience, and I have never heard that being done before. That's not a criticsm, I just think that the replies you get will be based upon speculation and not relays of actual experiences.
Yea, if money is tight and you have to work with stuff you have around, you may have to just experiment yourself to see what works best with what you have. That's the best answer I can give at this point.
Yeah my idea is Based on the possem valley done by Jean Simonet, on how he did his. He built his open grid benchwork with wood riser, He used plywood as the cookie cutter method then put foam between the bench work and the plywood on his grades. he has a website that has a photo of his benchwork. the only difference is just wondering if i can get away with using luan.