Hi all,
I am designing a new layout, and as several of you know available space is a limitation for us. The area shown in the attached plan is 11' X 16. That is what I have to work with, and I have decided on the basic shape shown in the plan. This is S Gauge and I know the magazine prefers other gauges.
This plan is drawn with RailModeler 4.1.6, I know it isn't perfect, my spacing between tracks is inconsistent and not done yet. I have had to make some links with flex track in some areas that I will work on more.
I am posting it to get general feedback on your thoughts, so please have a look and let me know what you think.
Looking good, but what are your goals for operation and standards for design? It looks like you used "Gilbert American Flier" temolates for your track or perhaps O Gauge templates.
A couple comments on the design though. First, the isle between the two turnback loops is WAY too narrow. Also, the engine terminal is going to take up a lot more space than you have budgeted - look at the alignment of the tracks to the turntable. I also see acess issues for the rear tracks of the layout and to the yard turnouts. You won't be able to reack in for than about 2' or so for operations.
It seems like everything is spread out and operations will be limited to running trains around the mainline loop. In addition, I fail to see how trains can get to the outside loop from the engine terminal, yard, or the siding you have in the middle. Perhaps you would like me to take a crack at it if you tell me what you want?
Nice attempt, S scale it tricky because of the large size.
Good luck with the new layout.
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
S-scale huh? I had American Flyer stuff way back when and really loved it. Just by natural selection it became a smaller and smaller percentage of my model train habit. It went when I did the big scale purge and eliminated all but HO and 1:20.5.
Anyway it looks like the layout is basically two loops that do not interconnect with each other. To me that is the first and biggest flaw. I like the trains to interact with each other. I know that will cause wiring issues, but block cab wiring is a very well documented methodology.
Second I question the need for three track yard on the bottom. I would reduce it to 2 tracks, and reverse the turnouts to make a "regular" ladder. (instead of left turnout, curve, left turnout, curve, left turnout, curve -- use left turnout, right turnout, curve). It will make the two tracks longer giving almost the same capacity, and at the same time reduce the number of S-curves.
Then with the extra space not consumed by the yard track, an industrial spur could be added.
Which is the other thought. I do not see enough places for spotting cars at industries. Any chance you would want to reduce the main line trackage and use that space for switching?
The turntable seems to be a little over powering. Is there a specific need and or desire for it?
SUSQUEHANNA AND SOUTHERN,
First let me thank you for responding and I appreciate your offer to help. I will try to respond to your questions and comments in order.
Goals, primarily a passenger outer loop and freight on the inner with a small amount of switching thus the small yard. Modeling northeast kinda like Gilbert did with his names; Mystic station, Guilford Station etc.
The software has some SHS and Generic templates, I tried to stay with what I have, AF 42" curves, Kline 54" curves, 10" straights and a hacksaw. I couldn't find a good template for the Flyer turnout, so I am using the one you see which a friend made me.
The isle between loops is actually 21" which is tight, but I can fit. I have been trying the reach in game with my current 5X10 table, and I can move cars at 35". And the room is actually about 22 feet long so I have access at the right end of both loops.
I need to set up the turntable and roundhouse and calculate the distance between them, the tracks don't align well because I didn't spend enough time with them. The diameter of the turn table is correct, ant the length, and rear width of the round house are correct. I agree some of the yard tracks will be a problem to reach, but switching is a secondary interest. I do need crossovers between the tracks, just hadn't gotten there yet.
If you are willing to take a shot at improving it I am all ears or eyes as it were. If I had my druthers the yard and the turn table and round house would be all on one loop with more passing sidings and industry spurs on the other. But I haven't been able to fit that together.
Thank you for your interest,
George
TEXAS ZEPHER,
HI, and thank you for responding, please see the response I just posted to S & S, as you both had many of the same questions/comments.
I am glad to hear you had S, I really like the size, and I have stuff that my parents gave me when I was a kid, I am talking 1950 - 1955 stuff, that still works.
The primary reason for the three track yard was some storage of trains I want to switch in & out.
I am looking for more space for spurs & passing sidings, but I really would like to keep the turn-table & round house. They take up some room, but I think the layout can handle it. I have the sawmill and the barrel loader i would like to use. I also have a log loader, but I know that is out, its a monster.
Thank you for your assistance,
S gauge has changed a lot since AF. There are scale models from S Helper and others. Would you be willing to use standard turnouts and flextrack? I believe thay make ones than allow operation of trains with large flanges...
I just checked. Gargraves makes flexible track that works with AF trains, just be sure to carefully level the track side to side. Gargraves has temporarally stopped making S gauge switches, but will be back in production soon.
S & S,
I actually have about 200+ pieces of A/F track with rubber roadbed and about 20 turnouts so I am pretty much thinking I want to stay with that setup. I like the Gargraves track, but it's a little rich for my budget.
Thanks,
What are the demensions on the turnouts? Are they a regular number or do they match a curve?
The flyer turnouts match the track, so 10" straight and 21" radius curve. That is the same dimension as the ones I used in the plan I am working on. The ones from the library are 27" radius.
Standard Gilbert track uses a geometry based on 10". The straights are 10" and the curves are 20" rad. The turnouts match the straights and 20" rad curves. It sounds like you also have 27" rad curves from Kline. The 27" rad turnouts must also be from kline. I'd guess that Kline uses 13.5" straights. I have some AF track here, and i just double-checked the measurements. Even if it really is 21" rad, American Flier track is slightly flexible and so it wil fit either radius relatively well.
I thought the AF curves were 21' radius but you are right it is a little bit flexible and actually takes an effort to get each piece tightly connected, so you can maintain a constant curve or straight line.
In over 60 years, I have not read a staement in Model Railroader that implied a preference to any one scale. There are several scales that are signifigantly more popular than S gauge among modelers.
Might you be willing to take the entire engine facility up one level? Thus "tunneling" with the double main underneath, hence cutting out the unnatural looking run behind the roundhouse. This way, you can really bring the roundhouse right to the layout edge, giving the layout a different perspective point, without having to compromise on space. The short stubby siding could be modified into a nice long hidden siding. I would also split up your 4 track "broadway" at center, separating the loops with scenery, buildings, etc. Just looks too stacked up in the middle there.
Didn't mean to offend anyone, and you are right there are more popular scales than S. I just don't see much in MR about S gauge.
Fifedog,
Not a bad thought, I am not sure what it would like like, other than hiding the loop as you say. I do want some elevation, and was considering just raising the tracks on the outer loop to create a stepped effect. And I would like to get the roundhose/turntable on the same leg as the yard. so going up might work, but not sure how to feed that level in the space I have.
As for the "broadway" I have the opportunity to do the center three foot section of bencwork as a bridge over a ravine. Maybe a trestle bridge I don't know yet, still looking for ideas, and pictures in all my magazine and layout books.
Thank you for your input,
Since you're only performing light power moves to the upper level, a small grade would work. Just think of all those roster stars resting around that roundhouse. You can even put in a sand tower and diesel facilities, as well as a caboose track.
Howzabout a scene from the rocky ledges of the New York side of Lake Champlain...? Don't be afraid to drop a section of benchwork down to create elevation.
I tried uploading the track plan I came up with, but it hasn't shown up yet
Wow, that was fast. I am looking forward to seeing what you have come up with. Are you using Model Railroader software also?
Thank you,
aflyer:
I am looking at the first rendition of your plan. I believe that you mentioned a revised plan later in the thread but it has not shown up yet.
Anyhow, one of the first things I noticed was the 'S' curves in the yard at the bottom of the layout. You have used left hand turnouts for each of the yard tracks. I think it might be better if you were to use right hand turnouts. Stay with the left hand turnout off the inner main line, but then use right hand turnouts with suitable lengths of straight track between them. In your current configeration, if you are trying to push cars into the top yard track they will have changed direction five times before getting to the desired location. I think that is a recipe for derailments for sure.
There is a potential problem with the yard track ladder (I hope that is the right term) where it may run into the inner main track as the inner main line comes out of the loop above the yard. That is solvable with a few changes to the layout fascia and by adding a straight section or two into the top of the lower loop. Move the lower station to the left along the lower inner mainline straight east/west section.
Now, if you can make sense of my last paragraph I should become a yoga instructor! Think about it and I think it might make sense, and hopefully add to your plan's efficiency.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Passing siding not long enough, move the left hand turnout to the other end of the curve, that should do it.
hi George
I would come up with something like this:
A loop to loop design with a staging track in the tunnel. I hate plans where a freight is always going West and the passenger train always goes Eastward. The crossovers will allow you to switch one train while the other keeps orbitting around your layout. By using the staging tracks you are able to get the impression of trains coming in from and heading to far away destinations.
Smile
Paul
aflyer S & S, Wow, that was fast. I am looking forward to seeing what you have come up with. Are you using Model Railroader software also? Thank you, George
Here's what I came up with:
I used CADrail software to create it using homemade AF templates. It took me 2-3 hours working straight once I got a general idea of where I wanted everything to go.
I designed this before you mentioned wanting a gorge on the layout, but a pair of bridges could be inserted where the two tunnels are at the left end of the visible layout betwen the two town areas.
I started designing the layout as a pair of loops, per your request. The lower loop is designed for passenger operations and has a small station and a larger station in front of the yard. All visible portions of the lower loop use the larger 27" radius curves to make the long passenger cars look better. The upper loop is designed for freight operations and has 4 industrial sidings, a double ended yard, and an engine terminal. There is also a crossover between the upper and lower levels in case you want to run your "varnish" into the yard to have the engine changed out.
The engine terminal has a coal dock and steel water tower near the engine house. A water plug or two will provide water for engines being serviced on the servicing tracks. I didn't know the dimensions of your roundhouse and turntable, so I designed it for a 20" turntable and a roundhouse with 20" stalls at 15 degrees between the stalls. Hopefuly I designed it for larger facilities that you have.
I widened the minimum isle width to 25" and I tried to make it easy for at least to operators to be working at once.
The passenger loop has a maximum grade of just under 2%, and the freight loop has a maximum grade of just under 3%. (Hope you freight engines have Pul-Mor power!)
I included a runaround track near the industries in the small town in case the train is going the other direction. One of the yard tracks can serve as a runaround in the larger town. I tried to keep everything that would be used in operation withing 2 feet of the edge of the benchwork. Where the tracks are more than 2 feet from the benchwork, I would recommend using a "Remote Uncoupler" to spot cars at the industries.
I included two lift-out sections in the middle of the two return loops to provide access in case of emergency (not that American Flier trains are known to derail.)
There is a section where the tracks are only 4 inches apart. I've marked it a having possible close clearances. It's been a while since I ran AF 4-8-4 No.336, so I don't remember how far the cab and pilot overhang. It shoudn't be a problem, though.
I included a pair of 2-track staging yards behind the backdrop, with each track being able to hold an 8 foot train. The yards are accessible through a duckunder and hole in the benchwork behind the backdrop.
Track elevations are marked in blue. I would recommend having the track range from 50" to 56" to show off the great valve gear on the AF locos, and make the unrealistically wide track spacing look more realistic (the spacing is forced by the turnouts and curves.) In addition, the high layout height will make it easier to duck under to get to the staging yards and to the "access from underneath" points. I tried to keep the emphasis on realistic scenery and operations. Having a "Topside Creeper" or similar device would certainly help with this layout.
I tried to minimize the hidden track, but because of where the staging yards had to be to maximize the sceniced portions, quite a bit of hidden track was required. Most of the hidden track can be accessed from underneath, and I managed to get a section out in the open again by using a dip between two hills.
I plan to upload another view that shows the sections of track more clearly. Sections in red will need to be cut with your hacksaw. I would recommend wiring the layout for two cab block control using DPDT switches and two high-capacity AF power packs. I would also recommend wiring the turnouts and remote uncouplers to a separate, third pack, since I have noticed that the trains slow down when you throw a turnout, even with a No.22035 Transformer.
Hope this is something along the lines of what you want.
Hon30critter,
Thank you for your comments and observations. I didn't like how the yard came out either so I will try doing the switches and changes as you suggest.
Thanks again,
Paul,
This is a great drawing with some very good concepts. The elevation changes are nice and something that I wanted to incorporate. I will be looking at this and and all the other good suggestions I have received to see what I can work into my planning.
This is an incredible plan, I thank you for all the time you have put into it. I have read your email three times and have almost been able to absorb it all. I can't expand your attachment, I tried but don't have any software that will open it. Unfortunately when I just stretch it out the writing becomes blurry and I can't read it. Is the grid one foot squares?
Correction, I was able to open your plan and can now expand it, I am still in study mode, it looks very interesting.
The elevations, the tunnels, the yard and sidings all look great. The one problem I see is that the lower loop in our drawings needs to stay at about 11-12 feet, it is not only space but budget to put everything together that has decided the dimensions in my original plan. I will continue to look at this and try to figure out what I can incorporate. I really appreciate everyones great input.
Sorry about that, I thought the resolution would be high enough. Go to my profile (click on my profile name in the post) and then click on the tab that says "Photos". There will be a higher resolution plan and a second plan that shows the track sections.
Yes, the grid is 1 foot squares. The description on the photo tha I uploaded says that, though I apparently forgot to say that in my post.
It's submitted as a .png file, and is openable using Microsoft's "Paint".
I was able to open the document last night as you just suggested. I actually posted a correction last night to let you know I was able to read it. It looks great.
That made it possible to read all your notes and see the elevation numbers the hidden tracks etc. The plan is great and I have been trying to figure out if I could build it. That is do I have the talent and budget to create it. My only problem is I am limited to 11.5' on the one loop.
I don't want to wear out your generosity but I wonder if you could flip the two loops, as I would like to build your design of the yard, the turn table and the round house on the upper, 16' loop, and the second town on the lower loop but cut down and fit within my 11'6" space.
Another question, the Rail Modeler software I bought provides a part list for my layout, straight tracks, curves turnouts etc. Does your Cadrail have that feature.
I'll see what I can do. You might end up loosing most of the second town, though.
Cadrail unfortunately does not provide a parts list. I end up counting the turnouts and measuring the lengths of flextrack to estimate the cost.
S&S,
That is great, I truly appreciate your work, and I can't wait to get started on this. My old layout is about 80 percent torn down with rolling stock and motive power packed away in boxes to make working room. I hope to finish cleanup this weekend and be able to start assembling benchwork the following week.
I really like your design of the whole lower loop, and want to preserve that design. I am just thinking that I might be able to assembe the benchwork with the 16' section on the bottom and the 11'6" lop on top, but I don't know yet if the plan will fit the benchwork where the large station is located. I am looking at the elevations and trying to figure out the cookie cutter dimensions.
Thank you again for your help,