Keith,
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing all these photos. Just a few hundred hours?
Sir Madog Keith, those scenes look wonderful! You´re a wizard when it comes to creating realistic rock fascia! Never seen it better before!
those scenes look wonderful!
You´re a wizard when it comes to creating realistic rock fascia! Never seen it better before!
Why Thank you my friend. Ulrich do you realize I think we've known each other for at least four years? Its been that long. I have been working on this layout come this spring for 5 years. I'm thankful I have an understanding wife. If you remember, I was allowed to build this in the Living Room!
I have taken all these pics ... because of you. Yes everyone, anything you would like to see is available. All you have to do is ask. Ulrich, I had read an old post that you wrote where you said in so many words.. ".. you would like to see someone post a layout from start to finish". So that has been my goal from day one, to document the progress of the layout. Now...you get to see the fruits of my labors. Thanks for YOUR support.
Keith
I remember very well when you started to post pictures here in the forum. Was it "A layout with Elevation"?
What I really like about your work is the care you show for scenery. A lot of model railroaders regard scenery as the bit that fills in the space between tracks, only very few layouts are being designed with scenery in mind. It is my sincere opinion, that too much emphasize is being given to "optimize" or even maximize the track plan, whereas scenery is often treated as a stepchild.
Your work looks so real that it is hardly noticeable that this is N scale.
Keep ´em rolling, those pictures!
Edit: I joined in March, 2009, so it´ll be 4 years in a few months.
RailroadCoug Keith, Good stuff. Thanks for sharing all these photos. Just a few hundred hours?
Coug, this took longer than I thought. I had no idea it would take this long to post a simple idea.
Thank you and I hope you've enjoyed this. The way I see it, I have saved you a few hundred hours. Now this one is more valuable than you can ever imagine. Get your wife involved. I would ask my wife.
" Well, what do you think?"
She's right there to give me advice. Painful at times, near death experience when she's right. She's been in on this from the beginning.
Feel free to ask questions. I've got "Just a few hundred hours" of pics to share. I'm no expert though, I think I've made every mistake a person could possibly make.
Again, thank you! I have thoroughly enjoyed this, as you have given so much useful information. Yes, this will save hours, and I do have an understanding wife, but here interests are not in the garage or modeling,(I 'm afraid). However, my nine year old daughter will someday be my model buddy! Thanks again, very grateful.
RailroadCoug
Ulrich, I just noticed you ask for more pics. Not any particular question, so that is what you'll get. Just pictures. lol
Keith - you have done it again! Those mountains just look great!
You know, you ought to run a clinic on how to build realistic looking scenery.
Sir Madog Keith - you have done it again! Those mountains just look great! You know, you ought to run a clinic on how to build realistic looking scenery.
All you peeps out there need to do is Ask. Although I think I've covered just about most on the subject other than giving another demonstration on the next diorama.. and the next... and the Next!
If you are having trouble with a certain section and would like to know how I did a certain area.. Ask!
OK, here's one more pic to pique someone's interest. Early Fall. I was at the local hobby store and the owner mentioned to me, that Fall colors start nearest the streams. Couldn't tell you if that is correct or not, but it gave me a Game Plan to follow. She also said, that Aspens are tubers, that send out roots.. and another tree will start next to that one, as well as other Aspens. So Aspens grow in groups and also by streams. Hmmm.. OK. Game Plan to follow. Here is one pic to give you some sort of what I was trying to obtain in terms of Early Fall Colors.
ON a side note here, if you look real close you will see some type of Reed or Cat-tails growing here and there. I took some long grass material (about 2 inches long) and cut it up to the length of only 1/4 inch or a tad longer. In groups of 4-7 I dipped into glue, then came back and painted them Forrest Green. (craft paint)
Thank you for letting us in on some of the "how to's" . I am just getting back into trains after 45 plus years and your info is priceless.
Thank you
Ken
Ken, I am glad that the information was helpful. If there is a step that was unclear or incomplete please feel free to ask about a specific step. I am always happy to help. Applications, glues and scenery has really improved and changed in the past 45 years, I know it took me a while to figure it all out. But I really enjoy building diaoroma's and talking about them. Just plain helping I guess. I am truly grateful for any questions.. lol, it helps me jog my memory in "How did I do that anyways' .. no kidding. You would be doing me and yourself a favor. As it is now, I've come across a few interesting pics that should go along with this particular thread on 'How To's" I think you might like it. Just for you.. and Thank you for the kind words.
Ken, yes just for you. I had to think about what an easy fun project would be. One that doesn't cost much, and something of a learning experience.
Now let me suggest that in the next few posts, (few posts ha ha ha) that these are methods I use are my own. Many others might use another technique to accomplish the same end result. I would suggest it is always best to use the materials that you are use to using and methods you feel most comfortable with. I like plaster, its easy, fun, and basically doesn't cost that much. It doesn't mean that everyone should do it this way, or that way, but to take in different methods of how everyone does it. Your own work is a compilation of everyone's idea's. In other-words. Do whats best and easiest for you, a method that you feel most comfortable with, and of course have fun.
Plaster cloth, I love it. Cheap enough especially if you buy it in bulk. Fun to use, with almost immediate results. The above pics of a mountain range in the background was made almost entirely of plaster cloth. It was my first approach to trying to make a 'back-ground' for the layout.
Lets turn on the 'Way Back Machine' to my early stages of building this layout. I had left over pieces enough to re-use and make my wife happy that I"m using all the left over wood.
I had a Game Plan, well at least draw something out. Sorry for the lousy pic, but its the only one. I think you'll get the idea~
Then I placed the left over wood in such a fashion to resemble some type of mountain range.
I also marked out the upper ridges on the wood as well as repeating the same markings over and over and then cut them out.
Using various pieces for certain areas was fun, sort of a 'pick and choose'. I had plenty of small red clamps to hold pieces together to get some visualization of what I wanted.
OK.. lets jump to the plaster cloth. This was my first approach. I had the mountain range outline made of scrap wood. I placed plastic shopping bags over the wood, to keep the plaster cloth from sticking to the wood. I laid out strips of wet plaster cloth, and tried to visualize what I wanted. In certain area's I noticed nice area's that looked real and nice. Those area's I studied and tried to figure out. "What did I do?, that made this part of the mountain look real?
Pleats in a skirt. Pleats in drapes. Think of a Drape rod. The curtains are all bunched up along the Drape Rod. That is where I had noticed better detail with the resemblance of a mountain and the shapes of mountain details. So in short, using a long strip of wet plaster cloth, or a square.. I bunched up the top of the cloth in such a fashion to resemble a pleated skirt, folding itself on one another near the top.
I had also noticed certain 'triangles' that looked real to me. So I held the squares by the corner and also pleated them and applied them to various areas of being touched up for realism. Attach the top of the pleated piece and then drape the cloth out in a radiating fashion.. to resemble a shirt. Ta DA .. I was having fun to say the least.
Now on a side note, I did not use the balled up newspaper with tacked on cardboard strips and a glue gun. I used foam board and if you look close enough you will see it on some of the pics. My reason? I knew I wanted various mountain ranges, I only needed a ridge to follow and drape the wet plaster cloth over it.
Keep in mind I have also darkened up the photos with added contrast for you to visualize all the cracks and contours of the mountain range. To take a pic of pure white is not easy.
By now / then .. it was dry enough to lift out, to be placed on my old card table. My Work bench in the Living Room.
My wife and I watch TV while I build, then I can ask her.."What do you think" .. and the avalanche of criticism starts. That's probably the biggest secret there in itself.~ Brutal, but effective.
Same pic, a tad darker. If you look close, towards the bottom .. you might notice wet plaster cloth.. a darker wetter shade. Also look for the pleats.
I was happy with the results so far. Being my first attempt, and that I had fun, well was truly a Labor Of Love~ I would like to think that some of you might try this, truly a fun project.
Now what you may have or not have noticed, the very bottom had to be tacked onto something. Wood Dowels were employed to tack on the very bottoms of plaster cloth and also give it over all strength.
Squared off horizontally, as well as with a semi 30 degree brace. There is only so much room underneath, a 30 degree was all I could get. Keep in mind this fits over those 'scrap pieces of wood' that made a mountain range. Everything lifts off. I can come back and add a tree line later on, while working on my old card table. Wood dowels were also placed in such a fashion to resemble a roof structure and also braced off and tied with plaster cloth. Sure glue in the dowels with your favorite wood glue, but it doesn't hurt to tie off the joint with a wrapping of plaster cloth around the joint. Then preserved with Elmer's White Glue to seal it and give it added strength.
Keep in mind also, afterwards an 'inner skin' of plaster cloth was placed on the inside. That is where the over-all strength comes into play here. Also it keeps little pieces of plaster falling onto your tracks. The inside and outside was preserved and strengthened by painting and spraying a watered down version of Elmer's White Glue. Once it dries.. its pretty strong.
Lets paint this! Game Plan.. uh uh.. oh yeah. Forget about colors, think of Densities. When looking for added depth, whether it is in a painting, a drawing or a diorama on your layout. For some reason, the mind sees the darker densities.. and places a value on them. That is, the darker the density, the closer the object seems. The lighter the density, the farther back in the background. I hope that makes sense.
IN other words, objects closest to the viewer should have a darker density, with a gradient of lighter colors/densities moving away from the viewer. Some how the mind sees this, and when the viewer looks at the diorama, it seems real because of the added depth.
Also, you can 'highlight' various larger rocks.. or nice formations.. or even the ridge of the mountain range.
I did the ridges of a darker density mainly because I could not tell one ridge from the other.
Woodland Scenic mentions Yellow Ochre for a base color. They recommend more of a dab here and there. Mine was not as mottled.
Burnt Umber was added to 'highlight' the objects closest to the viewer as well as the ridges.
Add some washed out WS Slate Gray to various cracks that you think might add better detail. I usually start at the top and let the over-loaded brush drip down the color through the cracks. Only in a few places.. hardly all over. You could end up with something too dark.
Now somewhere in between all this, I had plaster cloth holes. I mixed up a batch of plaster, and painted over the cloth that could be seen. This also acted as snow. I also used a white Craft paint for various areas.
I also went back and started to highlight areas with Woodland Scenics Burnt Umber. Keep in mind, if you put too much color in one area, you can come back with the Yellow and blend it together.
But in truth I STILL wasn't quite happy with the over all effect I was trying to accomplish.
Nope.. still wasn't satisfied. If you look at the earlier pics, you might see the brown / Burnt Umber poking through. Midnight Blue is the color of the Craft paint I used. It reminded me of cold ice blue. Add some white Craft paint over it, and it should blend in nicely. Mind you, at this point I thought ... I could be going over a cliff.
The Finished Product. Although you might not be able to see the cold ice blue painted in there. Up close you can see the difference. Many things you don't see, your mind does. I was happy with my first attempts at using plaster cloth for a mountain.
Very impressive, looks just like the San Gabriel Mountains in So. Cal.
I need a few definitions. when you say plaster, do you mean plaster of paris or drywall mud? Is CA the same as super glue? The Woodland Scenics glue you sprayed on, is that the same or similar to Elmers white glue?
Thanks
Bis Very impressive, looks just like the San Gabriel Mountains in So. Cal. I need a few definitions. when you say plaster, do you mean plaster of paris or drywall mud? Is CA the same as super glue? The Woodland Scenics glue you sprayed on, is that the same or similar to Elmers white glue? Thanks Ken
Ken, quote; "....when you say plaster, do you mean plaster of paris or drywall mud? "
I mean, I actually mix up some Plaster Of Paris and paint it on. For many reasons as well. I like to pace myself as I paint on the plaster, I have a relative amount of time to work with it before it hardens. I fill up holes, cover up the plaster cloth and add over-all strength to the mountain range.
The drywall mud, I am not familiar working with. I do stay within the materials I have around the house and that I am use to working with. I would imagine Drywall mud is basically plaster.~ As far as strength .. I wouldn't know either. You tell me! Hey if you have plenty of it, try it out. As the plaster that I mixed starts to dry, I can continue to work with it to add further detail using the paint brush.
Ken quote; "Very impressive, looks just like the San Gabriel Mountains in So. Cal."
Now that is funny. I am a Native Californian. Born in a small town over 60 years ago, called Los Angeles. Lived in the suburbs near San Gabriel and my wife born in Whittier grew up at the base of those mountains in a small town called Upland. Even lived on a street called Baseline.
Now I am sure you read my Game plan, well I drew out what I thought mountains and a mountain range should look like. You saw the wooden outlines made of scraps, and the whole plaster cloth event. But somewhere in all this, I said to my wife .. " I think I just re-created Mt. Baldy with Mt. San Antonio in front of it" You know, if you been looking at those mountain ranges most of your life, I guess you can draw it without giving it much thought. lol.
This is way off topic and I apologize.
It is a small world. I too am a native, born in Pasadena 60+ years ago, moved to East Texas 11 years ago to a town with a pop. of 292.
Moved to Charter Oak/ San Dimas area in 1954. The last 12 years that I lived in Ca. I worked in Rancho Cucamonga (sp?) and drove down Baseline every day (no 210 at that time). It sure aint like it use to be.
Thanks for the info. I may try using plasterof paris, drywall seems to crack for me if applied to thick.
Thanks again for all the info.
I missed your other two questions.
Yes Super Glue and CA are one and the same. CA is the acronym of its chemical name is the best answer. But there are two types of CA (super glue) and different makers. Thin and Gel are the two types. I have different uses for either and would prefer at times to stay away from them all together. I prefer mainly Gorilla super glue / CA (thin) and it comes in a rather large bottle for a fair price. You could put a dent into your wallet buying the smaller versions of CA.
Quote; "The Woodland Scenics glue you sprayed on, is that the same or similar to Elmer's white glue?"
Similar, but different. I like to mix my Elmer's White glue myself. Water it down so it can be sprayed from the bottle. But not too much water, you don't need the entire plaster casting to be dripping for days. Probably the safest move is to buy the Woodland Scenics Cement and see for yourself.
The best answer, for myself. I use the watered down Elmer's White glue for the over-all gluing effect on the plaster castings. For strength and being cost effective.
For 'fixing' the color I like to use the Woodland Scenic Cement.
Now hardly off subject, my wife and I got a chuckle from your reply. I asked .."You think he's a native" ?
she replies.. "He did say San Gabriel mountains"~
And for a real treat.. here's a photo taken of Upland, CA. 1906 and falls under Free Domain.. taken before 1923, so I have no problem posting this.
Every time I get a tube of super glue and use it, it dries out before I can use it again, so I but lots of small tubes.
I love the picture, those were the good old days. My folks had an avacado grove no Sunflower Ave in Charter Oak and all the neighbors had orange groves. Went back there this year and the train shop in San Dimas was closed, I had been going there since about 1956 and True Scale fartory was gone. I guess you should never go back.
Well yes.. those were the good ol days.. still are. ON my layout I plan on putting a building.. called.. Vinces Spaghetti~ Its still there been there since 47.. or sooner~
http://vincesspaghettiroute66.com/
From another site I found pretty much the logo they used.. and plan to make a sign from it.
I do remember those days and some memories of getting up early on the weekends.. mainly to go out and explore the open areas all around me, avocado groves as well as orange trees all around. Other found memories such as Happy Jacks Fish farm along the San Gabriel river might be the added touch to the layout also.
Now as far as those good ol days go~ People talk up street lights and such in the 50's and 60's, making their layout true to the time period. I was 11 years old before the city finally installed street lights. Before that.. at night.. it was pitch black, real dark.
I'm planning on adding many features to the layout that bring back some nice thoughts.. and usually have a story behind it all anyways.
Now as far as my layout goes.. I've had some downtime. Its been a long three months.~
But I have returned.. with pics.. and if I can just figure out the new Photo Bucket settings I'll be happy.
So if I can post one pic.. expect a few more.
Something I've been working on off and on for over 3 months. I say that because its been longer.. but its been off and on. All made by scratch.. basically with Foam board, pieces of scrap wood, couple of wood dowels, latex molds of rock facsia making plaster castings, and plaster cloth.
And now for my one pic.. of many~ This is where I am at.
This is exactly where I am at in building this N-scale mountain road / diorama. For just a bit of a re-cap. I had fairly finished up with the Drive-In theater and needed to 'end off' the layout with something of a mountain road leading to and from the city. Being that this area is a 'passage way' with people going in and out a slider to the back patio .. well special attention was given to the design.
Some thoughts did go into the design. such as having large smooth rocks with trees mounted in areas protected by rock faces. Also .. you wouldn't want to have sharp jagged rocks to possibly hurt someones hand..(or would you?) passing by.
I gave thought to having grassy areas perhaps, gladed areas with wild life of deer and mountain goats on the rocks. In the coming pics perhaps I can demonstrate how I molded those areas just using plaster cloth. Oh yes I did make some plaster castings of rock faces. But there were no paths to landscape. So, the plaster cloth really aided in making those areas of grass.
This big rock granite looking face (lower right) was made from plaster cloth.
The yellow square is an exact cut out of the building I am using. So when working I leave that in and protect the molded footprint of the building. Less worries.
Woodland Scenics Fine Ballast of Gray Blend (mottled colors of gray) and also Fine Ballast Buff blend. I am striving for a gray rock parking area for the FireWorks stand, using the Buff to match the color of the surrounding rocks. Using the WS cement, I sprayed on a layer of cement soon to be covered with the Buff blend. I then added the Gray blend along the roads and needed areas.
What did I end up with? After a good 24 hours of drying time, the Fine Ballast seems pretty stable, and generally firm all around. There are areas of needed patch work minor with more attention to detail, etching out certain areas for drainage along the side of the road. I do have some thoughts of possibly coming back later and with some craft paint add various colors to give added shape to areas of drainage.
On a special side note, being that there is a bottom layer of Buff blend fine ballast. I can see myself etching small areas out for the road side drainage / swale, with the Buff coming out. lol
Now before I even added the fine ballast to the road side to resemble gravel, I painted the party foam. The party form is black about 1/8th inch and a heavy layer of WS Burnt Umber was added. Don't worry it dries, and you really can't see it. Go ahead.. have fun.
Besides, when you spray the WS cement, well that watery glue is going to go all over the place. When it all dries the next day, the Burnt Umber seems to have melted right into the road. I think its that hidden color in asphalt looking roads.
Now on another side note The next day.. when all the watery glue drys, well there is fine ballast all over the road. No worries.. it rubs off with your fingers. Even gives certain texture to the road.
I like to cut the party foam on a sharp angle. In doing so, it gives an added touch to the asphalt looking real creating an uneven look to the edge. Once cut, you can come back and sand with fine sand paper and smooth the edge even more.
I find blending in the Fine ballast goes in more naturally and gives an additional uneven look as in piles up next to the road.
ON a personal side note, I don't know how HO modelers design with the space involved. Designing a road in N scale was hard enough with limited space.
I did have help, my Supervisor was there on the spot.. she's ready to hand out Moral support.
Keith - you did it again!
matthewd5I need guidance, I'm in N Scale plus I'm doing a coastal Maine themed layout with only subtle elevation changes I need the guidance on using molds, I have a few of the very thin silicone ones that are much more pliable , I'm almost tempted to cut up one of the molds into around 2" strips to use for my rocky coastal scene Any suggestions on that??
I need the guidance on using molds, I have a few of the very thin silicone ones that are much more pliable , I'm almost tempted to cut up one of the molds into around 2" strips to use for my rocky coastal scene Any suggestions on that??
Matt, no need to cut up molds. I prefer to cut up plaster cloth and lay the thin 2 inch strips I need on to the actual casting. What ever the shape is, I cut out the size I need in plaster cloth.
I take the larger mold and pick an area of a certain rock shape I want to cast. Make sure you see which way the strata layers of rocks lay.. you could end up making it upside down. I take some Hydro-cal plaster (any plaster grade will do actually) and rub the plaster mix into all the cracks of the mold. ONLY pouring / rubbing plaster into the required area. The rest of the mold I do not use. Only the area and shape I have picked out. Then I come back with small strips of plaster cloth and coat those pieces of cloth with hyrdrocal. Then I lay that coated strip of plaster cloth over the 'highs and lows' of the mold.
Yes the highs are the sharp jagged rock areas and the lows are the bulging boulders on the opposite side of the mold. Those will be the two areas will always be the weakest of the casting. If you don't' add the plaster cloth you end up with thin areas and possibly holes. By adding plaster cloth you give the overall casting the required strength you'll need.. being the casting is so thin. Yes I pour very thin castings. They end up fairly strong and thin.. exactly what I like. I do like to add a very small amount of Thin CA glue (super glue) to aid in the drying times. Small amount I said, you don't want to get any CA glue on the mold, only on the plaster after you are all done. You add the glue to the backside of the casting.
I do pull the casting out rather wet to the touch, and the casting can crack and break on you at times. No worries, with a small wad of wet plaster cloth.. you can wash and fill holes and cracks just as easy. Also, I believe this subject has been partially covered two pages back... but feel free to ask questions, I will do my best to answer them.
Well Matt, just a few more pics mainly because a pic is worth a thousand words.
1. Step one. Pick out your mold you want to use. Make sure which is the upside of the rock formation.
2. You will be basically using 2 sheets of plaster cloth. The first is the size of the actual area. The second sheet of plaster cloth is cut up into small triangles or squares to be used on the 'highs and lows' of the rock formations.
3. Coat the inside area of the mold with a heavy pour of plaster mix (hydrocal is preferred for optimum strength)
4. Then place the first layer of coated (coated in hydrocal) plaster cloth over the desired area.
5. Add the small squares over the highs and lows for added strength. Those areas will be the thin areas as well as the weakest.
6. Add a few drops of Thin CA (super glue) to the backside of the casting. This aid is drying times by a factor of 20.
7. When you peal out the casting.. start slowly and peal / break away the casting from the edge allowing air some creep in.. slowly working around the casting. The excess plaster washes off the latex mold.
8. If the pieces don't fit, being the casting is still wet to the touch.. well the casting can be molded and bent and even broken to fit the desired area. Once again.. coming back with wet piece of plaster cloth you can fill / cement any hole or crack. The main thing is to have fun. It shouldn't be stressful.
I must admit, I do enjoy making rock formations. And on a side note, when making plaster castings you should avoid making a casting flat. Lay the mold on a pile of towels and get a different shape.