Hello everyone!
I am going to start building a new layout, but I am somehow lost with the design. I have a room for myself, of which I share rough estimates in centimeters (1 inch = 2.5 cm). This room has two windows. I share some photos so you can get a better idea.
What I had in mind were some rough notions of things I wanted to have on my layout:
- Mountains with tunnels
- A viaduct and a bridge
- A small creek
- A medium sized station with a loco shed and some cargo yard
- A small station
- An industry (such as Sawmill, where an industrial narrow gauge line could be sketched such as HOf of Busch's )
Here are some pics of the room I have available all for myself (Domestic authority has granted permission! and I plan to remove the desk and plant you can see.
I am planning to use Atlas code 83 track and I even considered the possbility of building my own track for some specific areas such as the industry site.
Thanks so much for the assistance, I am totally lost with this as of now!
Cheers
hi,
maybe this thread is food for thoughts
Paul
Best foundational reference if you'd like to design the layout yourself: John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation
If one of the doors can remain closed once construction begins, that could help fit more into the room.
Best of luck with your layout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Man that is going to be a tough space. How much access is going to be need for the windows?
Side Note: 2.54cm = 1 inch
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
By the way, there is a problem with the dimensions you have given, unless the room is far out of square (which is not reflected in the shape of your drawing and the measurements of the other walls). The right-hand wall is shown as 240cm, the left-hand wall seems to total 294 cm unless I am misinterpreting the dimensions.
Hi everybody! I'm at the office right now and have little time. Just to mention that left wall is 239 cm (130+21+88), the left window width is 75 cm.
Apologize again for being short
Thanks for the help!!!
Can't offer much help with the design....
I was just curious as to when things went metric over in Kokomo.
- Douglas
Well, I would start with the bench work first. That way you can see how much room you have for running trains. You can easily reach in about 24 inches. To get the most use of the room, I would build 24 inch wide bench work all around the walls.
Once you have that up, you can figure at least one track around the room. From there, you can see what will fit.
If you don't want to actually build the bench work, you could use paper on the floor.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
While the first thought is often to start plopping down rectangles, that may not always be the best approach, particularly in a small room. The space can host an interesting inside-outside donut-style layout. The 24 inch radius might even be a little too broad, but it shows what can be done when we look beyond the rectangle in model railroad track planning.
Access for the windows is easy and while this quick sketch is not optimized for all of the Original Poster's specific needs, it would be straightforward to incorporate most of them.
Best of luck.
Byron
thanks everybody for their suggestions!
i was thinking of using 18" and 22" radii due to space constraints and also some sort of bridge that could be lifted in order to have a moving part. i must confess that it never occurred to me that I could not have one due to small room available. do you think viable to place 2 stations, an underground station for acting as a sort of fiddle yard toturn locos around and an industry all on this layout? thanks again so much for your time answering
Gidday, looking at cuyama / Bryons clever "quick sketch" you will see that he has put in, not counting the yard area, 5 spurs, which to my mind equals at the least 5 industries, more if a spur feeds multiple small industries.
It would appear that your "wish list" has grown since your first post on this thread, I'd suggest that you sort out what you really want and take it from there. While its not directly related to model railroading, the old saying "your eyes are bigger than your belly" is applicable here. We all from time to time get more ambitious than our space allows. . This, in my opinion, is a case where "less is best.
18 inch radii are doable, JUST be well aware of the limitations, 4 axle diesels, shortcoupled steam, 40 ft freight cars etc.
Have Fun,
Cheers,the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I am new to Modeling. But one thing I learned is that spending a lot of time on layout design before breaking ground is important. For me, I was forced into it thankfully because I needed to move a heater before I could start building ... And that took time and money.
With limited experience, I recommend-
1. At least 24" radius
2. If the door opens outside or if you can move so it does, then around the room with a bridge.
3. The more I think the more I like "Cuyama"'s plan. The thing I would try to change is to hide a portion of the elliptical.
4. Are you married to HO? - mightbe better?
NP
Perhaps I was not clear enough when I explained my "ambitions":
I thought about an underground level (-1) where to park trains and exchange wagons, perhaps with a loop included.
I also thought about an upper level (+1) with bridges and tunnels, perhaps the small mountain station could be placed at this level. I even tought about a small coal mine
On ground level (0) I thought about a medium size station with 3 passenger tracks, a loco shed, a warehouse and such. I also thought about a 5 or 6 yard and an industry such as a Sawmill.
I forgot to say that on my previous layout, a double oval, I focused more on scenery at the expense of a boring operation. Thus, I got fed up of it moments after completing the layout! Beginner mistakes.
Now I what I would like is: to have a train running in the back, for instance, while doing some shunting. I like a nice layout with attractive scenery, mountains and such, but I would also like some interesting train operation. Please find a rough sketch I made and of which I am not very happy
Am I too ambitious?
Once again, thanks for your comments!!!
ps: all of my rolling stock (European) is HO, I know that N scale would offer more possibilities, but I am not convinced
It would have been helpful if you had posted more detail about your goals and your sketch earlier.
Experienced helix builders have generally found 26" radius and up to be more reliable in HO. With clearances and supports, that's about a 5-foot diameter footprint -- a good portion of your room.
I don't believe either door will open with the lift-out in place in your sketch. Up to you, but many people would find that very inconvenient.
Good luck.
I got ideas, but I do not have any plan made so far, so I try to place everything I have in mind in drawings and got different results. One of the ideas was to put a helix ramp in order to go to level -1.
However I had read someplace else on the internet that perhaps with 2.5% slope and around 3 foot in diameter, you could place a decent spiral ramp. But perhaps I am wrong.
I found this diagram on a book, and maybe it could be interesting. It would need a loop to allow trains to come back, so that could go to level -1. I was wondering on a hinged bridge (or detachable) to put in front of the door. It could be a two level one also...
As I was explaining before, I got too many doubts yet
I think a helix in a small room is going to take up too much space. If you want to get to another level, you can also use what is called a nolix. That is really a helix that goes around the outside of the layout or around the walls. The walls could be lined with mountain scenery that the RR would have to go around on before it reaches an upper level. My layout uses one. Plus, I have two doors to cross and have four lift bridges. (You might want to take a look at my web site. The URL or link is down in my signature.) A nolix in your size room may have to go around twice. That would make for an interesting run.
I think that I could do well with the space you have, but at the same time, it would be crowded and the RR modeled would be a small industrial line or short line with just a couple of locomotives.
Any layout designed for operation should take into account the movement of goods by rail. That gets us back to the basics rather than just saying that you want a couple of stations and some industries. Your RR could represent a short line that has a few large shipping customers. (Few, as in two or three.) They could be larger industries that have a couple of tracks each. Since they probably do not ship things to each other, your RR would need some type of outside connection to another RR. Yes, hidden staging could do that, but so could one or two interchange tracks. The interchange tracks could be a couple of tracks in the main yard. I would envision a small yard with four tracks at the most, and a small loco service area. These could be mingled with, or in between, the industries.
If you are going to have two levels, one level could be the industries with a small industrial yard of three to four tracks used in local switching. The line then goes up to the second level where the main yard with the interchange tracks and loco facilities are located. You may also have room for another industry or two. As the line goes up the mountain side, it would cross several bridges that may be in front of the window(s) and doorway. Trains would be short, five to seven cars. You could run a couple of more cars if you were to double-head, which would add some more interest.
I will definitely take a look at your website.
Well, when I thought about an upper level I was just thinking of train going thru mountains, some trees and a bridge or viaduct. When I thought about an underground level I thought of something were to hide trains and a parking lot mostly.
I like passenger trains since I like the concept of a busy station and passengers waiting at platforms. However, this does not mean I dislike goods yards. I wanted some industry just to add realism to the issue of moving cars from one side of the layout to the other.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I was thinking of a 1960-70 environment where containers would not be that common as they are nowadays. I always had in mind a secondary line where trains would not be long either.
I know nothing of train operation so I just want something fun and not merely sit down watching trains passing by. I think of 2 or 3 locos working (one passenger? one cargo train? and one shunting?) and scenery.
Thanks
Given your interest I would seriously look at DCC. Like me you might be looking at a Multi-Deck design but likely without a Helix but maybe a Elevator or as mentioned earlier a Nolix. I would definitely go with a design that is along the walls and the Lift-Out bridge is a good choice in front of the door opening.
kokomo I know nothing of train operation so I just want something fun and not merely sit down watching trains passing by. I think of 2 or 3 locos working (one passenger? one cargo train? and one shunting?) and scenery.
I strongly recommend buying "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" by John Armstrong. It clearly explains what you need to know.
Dante
Kokomo,
12" separation between levels at 3% would need 33' feet of track to climb, this should be achievable with a nolix where everything is climbing except through stations. All industrial spurs are level, but sidings are climbing parallel to track. Perhaps a slim staging level needs only 8-10" between levels but I would definitely build a sample and see what spacing will be ok for you.
Given this is not your first layout, this sounds reasonable to me. I am on my iPad so can't draw, but I can envision a plan where you have a large city to the right of the door, with a passenger station, yard and industry. From there trains climb a bit anti clockwise to gain height and and a branch climbs down a bit to staging level. Your main city is at -0.5 level. Then you go around the room once to set up a second smaller station on top of your main city at +0.5 and keep going until you hit the door again where you have a smaller terminus. This will end up at +1.25 or something. Industries could be placed at various spots and you could generate some local traffic between industries as well as your total mainline length is over 50'
External world traffic comes in to the yard in the main city for deliveries to your Passenger trains coming in from the outside world. One quirk of this line would be that all trains coming from the outside world would have to "back out" to access the branch your are modeling. But this is not so unprototypical if your main city station is imagined to be a Europena style terminus.
Thoughts?
I know I wont get to open my computer to draw this, but hopefully this text helps you and not bores you.
I don't think you are going to be able to do what you want in a RR in the size of room that you have, modeling in HO scale.
If I were you, I would seriously look at N scale. Even though I model in HO at home, I model N scale at our club. N scale has come a long way in the past several years. Diesel locomotives are reliable and have nice quiet drives in them. If you can work with small things, N scale makes sense, but not everyone can work in a small scale.
For a continuous run layout in your room, Bryon's design makes sense, and there is not much else that can be done, particularly in HO scale.
i've been reading through some old model railroader articles written by john armstrong and don ellison, and think you should consider what they've written about.
the model railroad should have a purpose, which for a real railroad is to transport freight.
there are 3 type of models, which do you think you are?:
think of the model railroad as a stage, with the trains performing split second acts as they navigate around one another at station sidings.
and some suggestions of my own -- realize that in a small space, you'll have to think small to get more. in other words, realize that larger engines and trains may not look right and would require larger radius turns and longer sidings. By using smaller engines and smaller trains, smaller radius turns and short sidings may allow more trackage.
rather than think of modeling a long haul railroad, think about a small railroad that just spans a couple towns such as the raritan river railroad (map).
hope you find these suggestions helpful
good luck - greg
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Stourbridge Lion Given your interest I would seriously look at DCC. Like me you might be looking at a Multi-Deck design but likely without a Helix but maybe a Elevator or as mentioned earlier a Nolix. I would definitely go with a design that is along the walls and the Lift-Out bridge is a good choice in front of the door opening.
Yes, I am aiming at DCC completely. I have bought an NCE power cab which I expect to use with this layout. I am sort of convincing myself of the Lift Out bridge. I would also like exploring the possibility of a return track in case the bridge is not in place
NP01 Kokomo, 12" separation between levels at 3% would need 33' feet of track to climb, this should be achievable with a nolix where everything is climbing except through stations. All industrial spurs are level, but sidings are climbing parallel to track. Perhaps a slim staging level needs only 8-10" between levels but I would definitely build a sample and see what spacing will be ok for you. Given this is not your first layout, this sounds reasonable to me. I am on my iPad so can't draw, but I can envision a plan where you have a large city to the right of the door, with a passenger station, yard and industry. From there trains climb a bit anti clockwise to gain height and and a branch climbs down a bit to staging level. Your main city is at -0.5 level. Then you go around the room once to set up a second smaller station on top of your main city at +0.5 and keep going until you hit the door again where you have a smaller terminus. This will end up at +1.25 or something. Industries could be placed at various spots and you could generate some local traffic between industries as well as your total mainline length is over 50' External world traffic comes in to the yard in the main city for deliveries to your Passenger trains coming in from the outside world. One quirk of this line would be that all trains coming from the outside world would have to "back out" to access the branch your are modeling. But this is not so unprototypical if your main city station is imagined to be a Europena style terminus. Thoughts? I know I wont get to open my computer to draw this, but hopefully this text helps you and not bores you.
Thanks! I sort of envision your layout and it sounds quite attractive. Would it be too much to sketch it for me please? Do you think viable to make the "outside world" on an underground level where I could park locos and such? Upper level would be most for seeing trains passing thru tunnels and such, and an idyllic little station at the mountains. I am thinking of short trains mostly, also using 2-car diesel multiple units for passenger service instead of huge 8 or 9 cars long. Thus, I can imagine I can live with 18" radius curves, dontcha think?
gregc i've been reading through some old model railroader articles written by john armstrong and don ellison, and think you should consider what they've written about. the model railroad should have a purpose, which for a real railroad is to transport freight. there are 3 type of models, which do you think you are?: engineer who like intricate trackwork dispatcher who likes lots of destinations to transport to/from spectator who like continuous runs to watch trains go by on think of the model railroad as a stage, with the trains performing split second acts as they navigate around one another at station sidings. and some suggestions of my own -- realize that in a small space, you'll have to think small to get more. in other words, realize that larger engines and trains may not look right and would require larger radius turns and longer sidings. By using smaller engines and smaller trains, smaller radius turns and short sidings may allow more trackage. rather than think of modeling a long haul railroad, think about a small railroad that just spans a couple towns such as the raritan river railroad (map). hope you find these suggestions helpful good luck - greg
Greg, I think I consider myself more of a dispatcher but with something of a spectator on a less degree. On my previous layout I discovered after finishing it that after seeing the train passing by for the third time, I got bored. Hence, I would still like to watch trains moving, but also some shunting. I conceive this layout for not having more than 3 times running at the same time at the most. I think of smaller trains, as I was saying before, and my issue is that I would like to have a station, one or two indsutries, a yard, but I don't know yet how to connect them together. It's like having the pieces of a puzzle and can't figure out what to do with them
Hi Kokomo,
never believe posters who are unwilling to draw and are unable to do their math.
You do have a 33 ft long run when you are going around once along the walls. But as our friend told you stations should be on the flat, so you will probably have no more then about 25 ft. Compensating for vertical easements you grade will have a 23 ft long run. With a 3% grade the rise will be just over 8 inches; not the 12" that were mentioned. A separation of only 12" between desks is not very much, to say the least. You will have to realise the 3% grade in a 18" curve is hard on your engines; comparable with a 4,75% grade on straight track.
The place for your station is only 8 ft long. All who have ever tried to build or design a larger station on an 8x4 will know how easily that is. Going around the corner is a very good option, however it will reduce the length of the grade to the next desk.
BTW i know all European coaches are able to run on 18" curves and through #4 turnouts; spacing used by you will become an issue. I did some doodling, it is possible to have a 3-track passenger staging and a yard when going around the corner; though train length turned out to be just 4 feet. The remaining run is about 16 ft however, the nolix idea seems not that easy to incorporate in your design.
A dispatcher's layout is probably the most difficult to design. Setting up meets for several trains is asking for a very long mainline and lots of staging. A point to point design might not be the best choice.
Smile
I was just playing with wintrack and wondered about this. If I move the helix do the other corner of the room, would it improve anything in your opinion? Or would I still have problems... please keep in mind that more than the measures, what I am most interested at now is the layout configuration mostly
That sharp corner on the lower left side will give you problems, but that´s not the important issue.
I find it difficult to evaluate the shape of benchwork without having a track plan that´s supposed to fit on it.
Stop thinking of Stations and Industries. Think of Towns.
Trains run between towns. Most towns have at least one station and a few industries. Towns are also spaced out with miles of track between them. To simulate this on a model RR, there must be some county space between the towns, even if it is only one train length of space.
As an exercise, draw a square, then put a town on each straight section that takes up no more than one-third the length of the straight section. Now you have a RR that goes around the room going from one town to another. (Each town can be seen as a mini switching layout) If the tracks for one town get close to another town, the towns need to be separated more, which means that you have too many towns or too many tracks in that town.
If your layout is small, the other choice that you have is to make the layout represent one town.
With your space, you may be able to get two towns on it. One on the right side and one on the left side of the room. Either town can have the yard and engine facilities. The other town can have the interchange yard tracks. Each town should have one passing track on the mainline.
hi kokomo,
beside drawing a trackplan your self, you should set standards and have a track configuration in your mind. Like a point-to-point, or a loop-to-loop or a continuous run.
Standards for the minimum radius, spacing, grade, minimum radius in a helix, and train length.
I have added a helix / reversing loop to Cuyama's plan.
IMHO the larger station is to much for a layout of your size; a yard is still missing. And what to do with the trains that arrive at the top desk? Before you know it you are no longer a dispatcher, but just turning consists.
The following plan has stations more appropriate for the size of your layout. Its size is 9x8, not really different from your space.
Paulus Jas hi kokomo, beside drawing a trackplan your self, you should set standards and have a track configuration in your mind. Like a point-to-point, or a loop-to-loop or a continuous run. Standards for the minimum radius, spacing, grade, minimum radius in a helix, and train length. I have added a helix / reversing loop to Cuyama's plan. IMHO the larger station is to much for a layout of your size; a yard is still missing. And what to do with the trains that arrive at the top desk? Before you know it you are no longer a dispatcher, but just turning consists. The following plan has stations more appropriate for the size of your layout. Its size is 9x8, not really different from your space. Paul
Thanks for the idea, I liked the concept. I suggest two modifications:
1) The door with a knob is on the right hand, so that door must open. Would it help to use the left hand door space? I seldom open it
2) The helix could it be moved to the right upper hand corner? Could we go from that spot either upwards or downwards?
I was also considering this loop for turning trains. I got the idea from a Joachim M. Hill book... Perhaps if this alternative is used, better space management can be achieved on the underground level?
The Georgia template you provided looks pretty good. I wish I could achieve something like that with different levels (+1 & -1)
gandydancer19 Stop thinking of Stations and Industries. Think of Towns. Trains run between towns. Most towns have at least one station and a few industries. Towns are also spaced out with miles of track between them. To simulate this on a model RR, there must be some county space between the towns, even if it is only one train length of space. As an exercise, draw a square, then put a town on each straight section that takes up no more than one-third the length of the straight section. Now you have a RR that goes around the room going from one town to another. (Each town can be seen as a mini switching layout) If the tracks for one town get close to another town, the towns need to be separated more, which means that you have too many towns or too many tracks in that town. If your layout is small, the other choice that you have is to make the layout represent one town. With your space, you may be able to get two towns on it. One on the right side and one on the left side of the room. Either town can have the yard and engine facilities. The other town can have the interchange yard tracks. Each town should have one passing track on the mainline.
You're right about towns. It's just that it seems that I tend to focus on the station that I leave behind the settlement. And I thought that industries, such as sawmills or mines, were in the middle of nowhere, not precisely near a village. That's why I thought of them isolated from the rest of the world.
But as I said before, I am new to this, and I don't know if I will be able to put everything that I have in mind.
I just want something that will be eye-candy but at the same time interesting to use. It's me the one who's gonna use it (with the assistance of my little son) so I thought of a train moving and perhaps doing some shunting with another loco. That doesn't sound too pretentious, does it?
Thnx
now it is up to you.
BTW so far you show merely a couple of bad habits.
*when someone proposes a simple layout, your reply is, wait a minute i am very ambitious and then you come up with a long list of wishes. A few postings later when someone tells you it might to much for the small space you have, your reply is clear as well. I only want one train running around while an other is shunting; is this to much to ask for?.
*when someone asks you specific questions, you simply let them go.
* no drawings from you till now.
To be more specific, a dispatcher type layout (your wish) will have several trains running at the very same time. The dispatcher have to set up meets so all trains can safely get to their destinations in time. At the same time doing it in a way the local wayfreight has a sufficient time frame to its duties. This kind of layout takes lots of space. Far more then you have in HO, even when double decking. That kind of layout that requires lots of staging as well.
It is up to you to come with a obtainable set of wishes. Hard issues like the minimum radius in a helix and train length belong to them. As much as an basic scheme like a point-to point system or alternatives.
It is not that difficult to make a drawing in WinRail, start with a circle (the helix) in one of the 4 corners, add some track in the way Cuyama did and you have a basic track plan.
It really is up to you