I think its starting to look like a RR
1) There is aisle space to the right of the right most penn.
2) Scenery only with the 2nd deck above.
3) I do like Paul's way better, I will change it and loose the dbl. line
1) Do you have open space/aisle space to the right of the rightmost peninsula?
2) Access in he top part of the middle peninsula is going to be a little challenging - but if there is just scenery here, maybe not a problem.
3) Use run-through staging - accessed from opposite ends of the layout, as in Paul's sketch, instead of having one track "from staging" and one track "to staging" going down next to each other.
The way you draw staging, you either have to have a big turnaround curve in staging, or have to single ended sets of staging tracks, where you have to back trains out onto the main layout to restage them by hand for your next session
It also looks a heck of a lot more convincing when trains come from somewhere, pass through your layout and then depart for somewhere else, and the somewhere else isn't 2" away from where the train came from in the first place.
Stein
Pretty close Gandydancer19
Well, I like plan number one. Everything seems to be within a reasonable reach now.
I would put a high backdrop divider down the length of the two peninsulas on the right, and maybe think about a divider on the left one. Doing that, the main line would flow nicely around the layout and you could follow your train until it went down to staging.
However, if the peninsula on the left were to be for the engine terminal, then a divider would be out of the question, and the yard could curve to the left also.
The peninsula on the right could also contain a large hill or mountain with a helix to the second level branch line, even with the center divider.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
hi Southern,
it is your layout
you should make a list of your plusses and negatives first. Our comments will come second.
You could be a bit more specific about staging, places for engine termines and other goodies.
Paul
I have come up with 3 ideas and Pauls.
I am undecided on which one is better, so I will let you guys pick the winner. I think they all have there pluses and negatives.
1)
2)
3)
Sorry for using the incorrect language...
The loop is where the track is placed and yes it is on a peninsula. On the peninsula is a Engine Service Facility with track heading to the coaling bunker.
This bunker has 4 tracks for Steamers to reload and an additional 2 tracks to haul off ash and re-supply coal. This will then connect to the yard to connect to the consist and head out. There is also a Diesel Service building that connects to the yard.
The length of the consist, I am hoping to get 20+ cars but that will requite a large yard so I may just use the staging yard to hold this train but will limit its servicing ability.
I still think there is a better way for the bench work to flow, I just need to figure it out.
Paulus Jas You do not have 2 loops, you have 2 peninsula's.
You do not have 2 loops, you have 2 peninsula's.
Well, he has two "lobes" (rounded projections), on which he has turnback curves. The turnback curves on the peninsulas does not form loops in the sense that a train can loop around and around using only those tracks, but the curves are certainly shaped like a loop of a coiled rope or garden hose or whatever.
Of course, in the context of track planning, loop could also mean "closed circuit" - i.e. a path you follow which takes you back to the same point. In that sense "two loops" could mean two separate continuous paths around the layout - allowing two trains to run at the same time along separate paths.Or a single path that will go around the layout twice before coming back to the same point.
But be that as it may - how would you fit in an engine terminal with two lobes/peninsulas?
I would think it would be an visual focus and an place where you would have several people congregating to watch - so placing it on one of the lobes make sense, but perhaps along outside of the lobe directly opposite the bottom of the stairs?
Smile, Stein
Paulus Jas hi Southern, it might an idea, i am not a native speaker so i face the same problems, to learn the meaning of specific words, and maybe just as important to shy away from words with more then one meaning, like yard or loop. You do not have 2 loops, you have 2 peninsula's. The words yard and loop can mean anything, so it would be better to use words like: engine-terminal, classification yard or just a couple of spurs. Paul
it might an idea, i am not a native speaker so i face the same problems, to learn the meaning of specific words, and maybe just as important to shy away from words with more then one meaning, like yard or loop.
You do not have 2 loops, you have 2 peninsula's. The words yard and loop can mean anything, so it would be better to use words like: engine-terminal, classification yard or just a couple of spurs.
Paul, you are correct.
We Americans have a bad habit of substituting words for one another too easily. To make matters worse, if we are unfamiliar with railroading terms for the prototype or even for the layout, things can get confusing pretty quick.
In this instance, I agree that the OP has a "peninsula", not a "loop". I would refer to a loop as a section of track that folds back onto itself. As far as the term "yard" goes, this is simply a matter of confusion regarding the prototype. I think that a lot of us are guilty of referring to any collection of tracks in a confined area as a "yard" without stopping to think about its purpose.
Rich
Alton Junction
steinjr Southern4449: Its not so much for sorting trains, I need the room for the roundhouse and coaling station which require 3-4 lines connecting to the yard. I am not sure what the "3-4 lines connecting to the yard" was supposed to mean, but it sounds to me like what you want is not so much having a freight yard as having an engine terminal or helper base or something like that. A place to display locomotives, to swap locomotives on trains, and add or remove engines from trains. But no matter if that is your primary goal or not - it is a bad idea to put the turntable and engine house more than 3 feet away from the closest aisle, in the middle of a very wide peninsula. Smile, Stein
Southern4449: Its not so much for sorting trains, I need the room for the roundhouse and coaling station which require 3-4 lines connecting to the yard.
Its not so much for sorting trains, I need the room for the roundhouse and coaling station which require 3-4 lines connecting to the yard.
I am not sure what the "3-4 lines connecting to the yard" was supposed to mean, but it sounds to me like what you want is not so much having a freight yard as having an engine terminal or helper base or something like that. A place to display locomotives, to swap locomotives on trains, and add or remove engines from trains.
But no matter if that is your primary goal or not - it is a bad idea to put the turntable and engine house more than 3 feet away from the closest aisle, in the middle of a very wide peninsula.
Stein,
From what I am reading on this thread, it seems that Southern is referring to the coaling tower tracks as the "3-4 lines connecting to the yard". I am guessing that Southern is not looking to design a "yard" but, rather, an engine servicing facility where he can divert steam engines off the main line, through the coaling tower, onto the turntable, and into the round house.
As far a putting a turntable and round house (or engine house) more than 3 feet away from the closest aisle, in the middle of a very wide peninsula, I fully agree with you. It is a big mistake because locomotives become inaccessible at their weakest point where they are most likely to stall or derail. Please don't ask me how I know that.
The footprint is the same as the very first you proposed yourself. The difference between my idea and yours is the ability to walk with your trains, without crossing or even seeing the same line again. The use of double sided backdrops is mandatory.
BTW large radii, even the 27" radius have advantages too. Within a 180 degree turn you will have almost 50 inches of space. Take 30" for an aisle and you still have another 18" for a turntable or other goodies.
SmilePaul
Southern4449 Its not so much for sorting trains, I need the room for the roundhouse and coaling station which require 3-4 lines connecting to the yard.
Southern4449 I guess the consensus is to have 2 loops so I started to draw it up. I still think I can get a bigger yard into the other drawing
I guess the consensus is to have 2 loops so I started to draw it up.
I still think I can get a bigger yard into the other drawing
What are you planning to use your yard for?
Staging (holding whole trains before they make their run and after they have made their run) you can have on shelf under the left and/or top side.
How long trains will you be running?
How much need do you have for sorting cars that come in on one train and will be heading out again on another train?
Also - If you look at Paul's drawing again - he is suggesting that the yard could go in along the upper wall. Where it, if necessary, could be twice as long as it would have been on your long and inaccessible peninsula - where the yard tracks would be (3+ feet away from the closest aisle.
There is nothing that says that yard tracks cannot have curves - you want gentle curves for the areas where you will be coupling cars. but a yard does not need to a totally straight line from end to finish.
Southern4449 OK.. I didnt spend a lot of time on it but have thought about it a lot. Going with a single double main line that goes 1 time around. This gives me the room to add the branch lines. I also have the helix to get to the second deck placed. I will connect to it via a branch line with helper service. A Separate Branch line will do service to the industrial areas...?? This should ease the number of people to operate.
OK.. I didnt spend a lot of time on it but have thought about it a lot.
Going with a single double main line that goes 1 time around. This gives me the room to add the branch lines.
I also have the helix to get to the second deck placed. I will connect to it via a branch line with helper service. A Separate Branch line will do service to the industrial areas...??
This should ease the number of people to operate.
Same problem Paul pointed out in an earlier post - reach distances get excessive in the center of the peninsula.
At a quick glimpse, the footprint Paul suggested - two peninsulas, walk-in design, seems your best bet so far:
With the continuous run being through staging (which is along the top and left wall, under the layout).
Yes, I was going to put the loop under the helix and have 4--5 switches closer to the bench-work for easy access
Is staging going to a loop under the helix? If not, you don't have a continuous run if that is what you wanted. I guess you could add a cross-over near the end of the yard from one main to the other.
The boys can be taught to work together on a single main line, AND they are going to be growing up and leaving home sometime, so don't design the layout for them if it is your hobby. After that you need to be able to run the way you want to with possibly a couple of model railroad friends as a crew.
My layout is in a 9 X 24 foot space, single main line that goes around the room twice with a second level. An interchange yard at one end acts as the end of east and west runs for point to point operations, and there is a small classification yard and loco facilities at the other end, or in the middle between the interchange yard(s).
I operate with a four man crew. One as Yard Master, one as Mainline Engineer, one as Port Engineer, and the other as the branch line / upper deck Engineer / Operator.
http://www.waynes-trains.com/site/HO/C&A-Main-Page.html
30" is the ideal radius but bumping it down to 26-28" would be ok.
Crew size would be mostly 2-3 people but I would be the switcher while my kids would mostly do passenger routes.
I still want to have 3 decks but the idea is to get the staging and the main going while having it setup to expand to the upper deck.
I will work more on the drawing but I kinda like thhe bench work in the latest plan but will "re-think" the double blob idea.
Busy at work so it will take me a couple days to get it drawn.
doing more homework is at order. Your home work. Getting a main in is not looking at bench-work only. I am not sure what comes first. More experienced track-planners do probably both at the very same time. Lance Mindheim designs his benches first as he is stating often; the number of possible footprints often is limited, John Armstrong called it getting "the main in" first.
Anyway planning, without thinking about how to climb to the various levels, is way to easy. It may sound rude, though i have the feeling you are not very sure about your druthers.
1)I might be wrong, thought I read about a 30" minimum radius, looked back to your druthers saw 26" written, while responding to me you mentioned 30" again. Not in line with 5 feet wide peninsula's.
2)In your druthers you were talking about a 2 men crew, later about 4. This is very important since your big dream will probably need a crew of 10. Do you want to much? Two engineers (your sons?) running mainline traffic, one switcher in the yard and one servicing an industrial area could be kept busy on a single deck.
3)Your ideas about 3 levels or 3 decks have some altitude issues, beside how to get there. You want a helper district on the highest deck, this means a big hill, lets say 12" high. with a 4% grade. The main deck under the high deck is 18" below, while the staging level is 8 inches below your main deck. Assumptions of course, the total is almost 40", so from tabletop to eye-level? Is this still acceptable for the boys?
4) A train-lift is possible, for the long trains you mentioned i would stay away from doing it by hand. Rather recently questions about it were asked in this forum.
My favourite plan is the first one you posted on here. The double blob plan would make entering staging easy. Even as a single deck layout it would cover all the needs for a small crew. Enlarging one of the blobs so a helix could be inserted is an other way to get to a second deck.
I am not sure about the boys wishes, double-tracking might be a better way then twice around. The longer single track mainline would require dispatching, while with double track each one is able to run his own train without hindering the other.
BTW since the peninsula's are 15 feet long, trainlength might be limited to about half that length.
I was going to have the main line come into the yard from the staging area, that way the Units get serviced an venture on. I need to figure out if I want to have the main to run thru the scenes twice (gets lift to the second deck) but then I have a problem getting back down to staging. Speaking of another issue, is to find good locations to get the main line into the staging areas. I think I might want to stay away from the lift access with the staging areas as It might be difficult to align all levels of track with the lift out access.
I am using XTrkCad for the drawings and haven't figured our how to populate the elevations.
Southern, I like your plan so far. It looks like you have a nice long run around the room with your mainline.
(I actually design my bench work first too, and then go for a track plan. It can be done either way and depends on how creative and flexible you are. Also, when I do a track plan, it is just a rough sketch. When I go to lay it out, I use actual pieces of track and work the final arrangement as I lay it down marking the center lines.)
I think I would opt for a wye that goes into the yard and service area and maybe forget about the mainline making a loop in there unless using a smaller radius. That way you can narrow down the bench work some where the yard is.
It also looks like you could put a one turn helix in the lower left (going around the outside of a mountain) to start a grade to an upper level. Remember, a helix doesn't have to have the same radius throughout, so you could even put in two turns on the mountain side. (A larger radius near the bottom and smaller radius above it.) And since you are talking about a logging / mining branch, the radius doesn't have to be as large as the mainline. (I use a no-lix to get to a second level.)
Southern4449 I am wanting to have a total of 3 levels. The first lower level (hidden) would be staging, the 2nd would be the main layout, and the 3rd would be a shelf style above that has logging/mining that would require "helper service". The main level would be continuous running with some switching and have branch lines for mostly switching. I wasn't to concerned about the track this morning just trying to get the bench work flowing.
I am wanting to have a total of 3 levels. The first lower level (hidden) would be staging, the 2nd would be the main layout, and the 3rd would be a shelf style above that has logging/mining that would require "helper service". The main level would be continuous running with some switching and have branch lines for mostly switching.
I wasn't to concerned about the track this morning just trying to get the bench work flowing.
For my money, you've got that bass-ackwards: you should worry about the track first, then design benchwork under it. Obviously, one will follow the other, but don't let a benchwork plan limit your creativity.
I like where you're going with this -- but you still have some serious access issues, most notably the center of that lower right area and the whole area to the right of the turntable -- as Chris rightfully points out. For actually doing scenery / layout work, a topside creeper-type device will be fine to reach them, but that's a lot of bother to use to fix derailments or other operating issues. The best most of us can do is 30", unless you're unusually tall or long-armed.
On this plan, I see the continuous running flow; what I don't see is level transitions. Is this done using a drawing program, or actual layout planning software (the 4 yard tracks in the center, for instance, are lacking a lot of turnouts / crossovers).
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I would be concerned about the idea of having the yard in the middle of the peninsula. The general rule of thumb is to keep track no more than 30" from end od the benchwork. With that in mind I would rethink the design in the middle of the peninsula.
Chris
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I wasn't to concerned about the track this morning just trying to get the bench work flowing
Southern 4449:
See? I told you you'd get lots of help if you started the, er, train moving (sorry, couldn't pass on the bad pun).
I'm looking forward to your next redraw and see where you are. I'll hold off on suggestions until then, because you've got a lot of good material to work with!
One question, because I think I misunderstood originally: Do you want one level of actual layout, or two? Are you counting the staging as part of the second level, or will that make a third? (OK, that's kind of two questions....)
Thanks for the ideas guys!!
gandydancer19: I like the idea of having the bench work continuous but I need to keep the door, free and clear, for the wife, so i can adjust that. I can use 1 lift access to get into the RR.
stilson4283: I like the idea of getting the lift to the 2nd deck
J.Rob: I will add your ideas into the next re-draw and will keep in mind to make it easier to disassemble. Though I dont plan on moving....again
Paulus Jas:
2)I would like to keep 30" rad. but I can goto 28" if needed. Aisles need to be kept at 3'...but can squeeze in some areas.
3) It's a NO-NO if I want to keep the wife happy
4)Is a second deck something you really want? Yes, I want to build it so I can expand once the main area is running. I would like to keep the "helpers" in there but am trying to stay away from a Helix.
5)It will be mostly a "family crew" of 3-4 so I need to keep 3' aisles
6) I want to have 1 main line with a short line to do more of the switching. That way I can keep the kids busy watching trains run and I can do some switching.
7)The logging was planned on being more of the 2nd deck, maybe with some coal areas.?
8)Is cutting through the stairs an option.hmmmmm Id need to think how to negotiate with the wife...maybe more flower gardens in the screen..LOL
I will try to add all of your ideas and come up with something today
THANKS for all the input!!!!!!!!