MonkeyBucket It seems to me that the stairs are concrete and that they go up , not down. Good luck putting the rail through.
It seems to me that the stairs are concrete and that they go up , not down. Good luck putting the rail through.
Picture:
It is of course possible that the stairs are made of concrete, but it does not seem likely, given the fact that they have the narrow(ish) boards along the sides, and there are spots where the paint has been worn off, showing a color not very much resembling concrete.
As for going up or coming down - it is a basement. Stairs come down into the room. The foot of the stairs is towards the upper left hand corner of the plan.
Smile, Stein
Cheers...
Chris from down under...
We're all here because we're not all there...
Why not move the staging to the E side?
Bear "It's all about having fun."
hi gentlemen,
Not that long ago Stein and Byron suggested a different approach, designing down from a more limited list of wishes.
The use-able space above the stairs is about 7x15, an extension towards the heater and a switching district on a peninsula could be added easily.
More then enough space for a sweet switching layout that could keep 2 or 3 engineers happy; quite build-able in a few years. Stein's home layout ( with some minor alterations) could be an nice example.
Are we trying to hard to build a BIG dream layout? Shouldn't we look more at what is doable in a more limited span of time?
Smile
Paul
BroadwayLion On a different comment: it is NOT practical. The stairway comes down in the middle with no access to the rest of the basement without passing through the lift out. You use a lift out to get into the layout, not to get into the basement!
On a different comment: it is NOT practical. The stairway comes down in the middle with no access to the rest of the basement without passing through the lift out. You use a lift out to get into the layout, not to get into the basement!
Well, it is more practical than the original guy's plan - he had one liftout at the bottom of the stairs, another one to get over to the laundry area at lower right, and tracks he would need to access from the second pit on the right during operations:
bearman Paulus, how do you, and Stein for that matter, whip these layouts up?
Paulus, how do you, and Stein for that matter, whip these layouts up?
Yes, it is a nice drawing, I wish I could do as well. What software do you use?
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
hi ONRF
i would try an altyernative footprint
1) no duckunder near the stairs
2)the pit is not behind behind the wye
3) staging doubles as CN interchange
I've drawn this plan with 24" radii and #6 switches, 30" radii seem possible too.
Nathan
Cambridge, Ont
B & B Railways - "Connecting the North, one rail at a time"
Nathan, (long post, bear with it)
Don't get discouraged, that basement is fine, just a little work is needed. Its similar to my train room, concrete walls and floor, open rafters, and shared with the mechanicals, including water shut off and fuse box access issues.
Seal the walls by painting all of the walls sky blue and if you're concerned about dust from the ceiling, staple visqueen plastic to the rafters only in the areas directly over the layout. Quick, cheap, removable, and will keep most of the the dropsys off of the layout. No need to spend money on permanently "improving" your landlords propertty by finishing the ceiling. I have had my layout up for about 4 years and have not noticed anything dropping through the plastic. Painting the floor is a good idea, but I have not done that with mine.
As far as the trackplan, I like the overall design and the linear approach you are trying to accomplish, but that plan is a poor fit for that space. The two foot stair landing may even cause a building code issue where if there is an accident in your house because you made the landing too narrow, insurance may not pay a claim. Ouch!
My layout goes under the fuse box panel. I have provided access to the panel by having a narrow 12 inch shelf just under the box. When a person stands to access the panel, there is a natural dead space between your body and the wall that will easily acommodate a narrow shelf. The bottom of my panel is 48 inches high, so that dictated the height of the layout ( I didn't want grades). Since trying to blend a fuse box panel into the scenery is hopeless, I didn't even try. I took a theatre trick and painted the whole area flat black; the panel, the walls, the benchwork, and even the track, leaving only the tops of the rails unpainted. The blackness serves to tell the eye that the area is backstage, not part of the layout scenes. I added two backdrops that extend perpendicular tfrom each wall on each end to sort of box out the area. That box combined with the blackness helps the whole corner to disappear. The train punches through holes in the backdrops, which are concealed by road bridges and buildings. Is it perfect? No, but its a pretty darn good solution considering the limitation of the area.
I think you can have a dogbone plan that runs along the E and N walls, with one turnback loop near the furnace/post area and one in the NW corner. Being able to access the furnace from only two sides should not be a problem. The track plan would be pinched narrowly under the panel. If you think in generalities,here, the two loops could represent two scenes, with the corner black space representing selectively compressed geographic distance between them. That's what I use my "dead" space for. Some layouts use tunnels for this concept. On my layout, the boxed out blackened dead space works just fine. You could have the pit in the NW corner and a yard/engine facility in the opposite loop, since it should be the bigger of the two.
Off of the south part of the E loop, you could have a junction wye that turns south. In the SW corner, of the basement you could cluster all of the other industries to make sort of a separate Industrial Switching Layout. The water shut off should just be pipes, so , after pinching the plan and shelf to provide access (instead of the duckunder you have now) you might be able to conceal them with scenery and not have to the resort to the more extreme solution you need with the fuse panel.
Conecting the wye junction with the SW ISL could by using a "drop in" section. Drop "in" meaning, you only have it in place during the 1% of time the train is moving from the junction to the ISL. The rest of the time, the basement is accessible. The space for the ISL s/b large enough to accommodate enough switching to give it an operating plan of its own, so you are not really using the drop in section that much for operations.
In general, sort of make two separate layouts connected with a drop in section, and have the corners that require access to the house functions scenically concealed. Would it be a great layout? probably not since I personally don't care for loopy dogbone layouts, but having the plan you have now will not work, IMO.
If I had layout software, I would draw you a plan,. Sorry. This situation is quite the challenge. Give it a try and see how it all fits.
Edit: Nathan, You may have problems fitting a yard and an engine service area into just one of the loops, but my thoughts were designed to give you a general idea of how to carve up the layout space. Also, it looks like your fuse panel sits flush with the wall, which is different than mine. You may be able to just paint it the same color as your backdrop to have it blend in well, rather than having resort to my box out idea.
- Douglas
It's your dream layout ,equipment and time and money. Do what you want, as you work on the layout time will decide what you can and can't do, I was once in your position and I also built my layout without any help because this forum didnt exist. It was a very good learning experiance,and I taught myself as I went along. Today I have a club sized layout in a new home that most would love to have but I still remember those first few layouts and that dream to build that layout that is on paper and in your mind. I say go for it and learn as you go and let everyone see your progress, no one knows what the future holds for us. Have fun while you can, Jim.
Here is what he posted on another board (don't know if it will display, but I'll try it):
Bottom of stairs is at top left, where he has that funny dog leg. Acccess to the laundry area at right side of room is seemingly down the stairs, through a 2 foot gap there, and then through a liftout in the layout on the right side of the room.
Access to tracks along right side of wide part of layout (and the fuse box in the upper right hand corner) is through the liftout by the laundry area, past an 18" gap between the furnace and the layout.
Track planning consists mostly of trying to draw tables in various configurations, not doing a top down design.
Good luck with this one.
hi Nathan,
my computer can't find the link, though the pics of your room were opened.
Are you able to post your plan through photobucket?
Here is a link for another layout format I have been working in, that will work better for me and has more flow and work for scenery. I still need to tweak some track, but just looking for some feedback
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JUXTDdcHC5YMPAAyJI1oOA?feat=directlink
onrfanaticOkay, lets try this again.... I would like to ask what gives you the right to say that I need a strong dose of reality here...If I was half the person you are, I would have tried to help and not belittle someone. You do not know my situation and why I am in housing. As for a Dream house, you can dream for me, as I have been burned here before, and have to thought of ever owing a house. I have been talking with others, and have got my list down to the 3-4 top items I would like to have. I am seeking inout for bench work and soe ideas to change some things to make it better. Not be told to keep dreaming and go some where else-as that is what I inturpt your comment to be. I am sorry my basement was not finished, as this is not a priority for housing, I am sorry my basement is not up to your par, and enviromently fit for you...but hey, its a basement, its what I have to work with, and its more than what others have. It is better than nothing. As for your Gorm comment, you must live in another reality, Gorm from Ikea is not expensive, and other have used it for bench work, as I have talked to those people. Gorm is an afforadable product and works well. There is nothing wrong with using this product in a basement.
onrfanatic,i will go ahead and build a layout in that basement,mine is not finished also and the only problem that i have is when a cat or dog up stairs takes a leak in a certin area it gets wet down on the layout but that dont happen often,the floor is concrete so i used treated 2+4's for the legs and it does leak a little when it rains a lot but i say its about a half gallon that gets on the floor so i get that much water in the basement about 3 times a year.And i have it better than i have in the past, i even had a layout in a Motel room before, nothing has ever stoped me from haveing a layout to enjoy my trains.So go ahead and have some fun.
Russell
I have to agree with Nathan. Not sure why some of you guys are being hard on him. He's giving his wants and needs, the available space he has.
I don't see anything wrong with this...
But Nathan, you were given suggestions from Byron, reworking your plan from scratch in the available space.
Why don't you try to work out a plan, post it, then have them evaluate it.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Time to be blunt again.....
Nathan, I and many others have offered you several suggestions for trimming down your ambition to the space you have to work with.
Each time one of your threads starts to "degenerate" into practical advice, you clam up and disappear for a few weeks, then start a new thread with the same ideas in the hopes that some miracle or revision to the physical laws of the universe will let you realize your dream, and that if you ask the question enough times, eventually some all powerful genie will come along with the magical solution to your problem.
The collective experience in model railroading of the people who are offering you suggestions is probably in excess of a millenium, and yet you continue to resist suggestions to scale back your ambition to what you can reasonably fit in the, er, space available.
And I have only just now realize how ill-suited that space is to hosting a model RR, not to mention a model RR AND a sewing room. Like it or not, your first project HAS to be tackling some of the issues in that room. I can't believe you're considering putting expensive GORM shelving down there.
You need a strong dose of reality here. There's nothing wrong with doing a small layout as a temporary measure, until you can afford the dream house that has the space for your dream layout.
I'm sorry to be so forthright, but this is the best advice I can give you right now.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
hi ONRF',
you had some previous postings on here, and reading them back you were not really willing to accept a smaller space. More important however the size of what you wanted to build was not consistent.
Due to restrictions in the use of the basement my first thoughts are directed to building some "smaller" sections, (like the HOG) that might be used again when a real finished basement is yours in the future.
I am not sure about Byron Henderson's rates, you have to pay for quality, though i do know what plumbers and carpenters are asking per hour (not counting materials). I also am aware about the number of hours involved in a really good design. Bring your car to shop for repair, life does not come cheap.
And yes, it is hard to design "up" from a blank sheet of paper, if your fantasy loves to design down from a long wish-list.
The Original Poster and I have discussed his layout ideas for quite some time in many emails in the process of investigating a custom track plan project.
My suggestions to him have been that trying to compress everything from his larger designs into much smaller spaces may not be the best approach. In my opinion, rigorously (and ruthlessly) prioritizing the wish list and working to include only the very top priorities might lead to more satisfaction in the long run, leaving room for more manageable grades and a bit of room for scenery and structures. The OP's wish list is really just too long for his space in HO, IMHO. And I've told him that.
I do recognize that everyone's perception of what's expensive and what's not is personal. While the actual amount proposed to the Original Poster is confidential (and included lower-cost options), I don't think the amount is as high as comes to mind for most folks when they read the phrase "thousands of dollars". (I do understand that the OP and many others have legitimate budget issues. I wish I had the capacity to do more layout design projects pro bono or at a discount for him and other folks).
I hope the OP will at least try my off-forum suggestion to him of starting from a completely blank sheet of paper with only one, two or (at most) three "Must have" priorities, draw that layout, and then add more elements if there is space left after leaving some room for structures, scenery, and a bit of "breathing room". That's one way I might approach the project if it were something I was to take on.
Priorities are the hardest part of any layout design project, I think. What to leave out is usually much more important than what to include.
Best of luck.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Hi again!
I assume "housing" means rental property, and if so I understand your situation.
As "Cowman" wrote, if you are in a long term situation there are some things you can do to help out, and his list was pretty good in that regard. If you are there for the short term, perhaps you would be better off in building structures and cars and layout designs to utilize when you do get to a long term residence.
I spent 3 years in Dallas in the late '70s and that was what I did - which worked out pretty well in the long run.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
If you can't improve the building you will have a tough go. I would get a good sized dehumidifier, it will be good for both your layout and your wife's sewing equipment. Make some sort of canopy over your layout, sheet of plastic or plywood above the layout to keep the crud from falling directly onto the layout.
Is this a long term location for you or a somewhat temporary one? If it is temporary, scale back your ideas and pick one or two of the things you want to do most. Build each on a module and be able to connect them for operations.
If your situation is more or less perminant, I'd really consider getting permission to finish the area. It will improve the building and improve your layout situation greatly.
Good luck,
Richard
I can not really do much to the basement, as I am in housing, and Can't really do anything to modify what is already there. It has to remain as an unfinished area
Hi!
Looks like the basement is going to need some serious work before you put in any benchwork. Dust and dirt and dampness can really do a number on a layout, and frankly ruin your enthusiasm.
Assuming the basement doesn't have water seepage, I would seal the walls and ceiling, built out a room with 2x4s and drywall, install lighting and electrical outlets and put in a ceiling. And then, you will likely need a dehumidifier periodically to keep the dampness at bay.
OK, the above is a best case - and I was once in a situation where my basement made yours look ideal - and I put in an 8x20 layout (Lionel) that was absolutely terrific - but after 3 years the rust got to it.
So I guess what I'm saying is that if at all possible, address the room first, and it will make a huge difference in the longevity and enjoyment.
Too add on:
Under the stairs will be desk area for working. Since I am using the gorm shelving, it will provide atleast two levels of storage around the entire layout. I would like to stay away from the helix option, I was looking at just lowering the line to the underside of the layout for the hidden yard, and the pit tracks can be above it. I would like to keep any lift outs light and easy to move at all costs...bridge are fine. But if I had to reduce the list of want items here they are in numercial order-one being the most needed and lower. I have taken out the scenic parts, as we need track first before anything else-minium is one siding
The want factors for the space are as follows:
1) LaFarge Pit
2) Cn Interchange
3) Hartman spur
4) Mine Site
5) Engine Faicility w/ MOW area
6) Rail to truck transfer
7) Propane or Salvage business
8) Tio tinto Minerals
9) Wood Business
The top 6 are a must, the rest can be added on, or even can be section that act as a lift out and can be added on when running trains, so they do not get in the way
Basement Pictures
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/R_gIGAI_lNIaA2qMHlOWSw?feat=directlink
This one was taken from standing on the stairs - you can see the panel - the cover lifts upwards
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2Q3Ian81boRWZQIvBwkClw?feat=directlink
This is facing towards the stairs
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GIAPUGN_BPquLxIf25NKNg?feat=directlink
From behind the water heater/furnace towards the fuse panel
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/N1hbMIKbq5KXiJ-Z88z0gA?feat=directlink
The post in the basement-represented by the gray area in the plan
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cRHYNe2inN1DqnpBZX8t0Q?feat=directlink
Under the stairs Area
Here is a layout tat I have been working on. It will contain a lower level, I am running modern HO engines-4 and 6 axles. IT is a freelance layout. I am looking for some suggestions and feed back on this to perhpas make it better or enhance it.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZLM4dntaT726VsbPnhuusw?feat=directlink:550:0
I am using fasttrack switchs, and would like a min 28 radius on the main line and 24 radius else where or lower.
the main company on this layout is my Lafarge pit. I am doing a free lance layout based on a railway company I created, and am still working on the other things. The fuse panel in one since is not really blocked, in this case there would be a step stool to access the panel, as one is need now because of the location. if you think a picture of the panel would be better let me know. I am wanting to run a few trains at a time, and yes a small yard is what I would like top side.
Most of the industry tracks will only fit 2-4 cars except the pit where more cars are loaded, although there is an engine that services that section only, it could be condensed...
I am open to ideas, but try to save some money in the planning process here. This is not my first layout, and I have read all the books. This is why i like places like this to help me out. I have already contacted Byron in regards to this layout a while back, but I am not in the position to pay out thousands of dollars that i wish i could do to have him design it from the ground up...hence why I am trying to tackle the first part on my own. I have designed a number of layouts...just ones on a bigger scale...my hardest point here has been to put something into a small space.
Engine Facility (will have a place to fix engines and store RDC Budd cars)
A small MOW area
CN Interchange
Lafarge Gravel Pit
Hartman Spur (must go behind a back drop for the illusion it has gone for a while)
Either a propane or Salavge business Track
Rio tinto Minerals (one track business)
Rail/Truck Transfer (one track) (2 cars)
Passing siding
There are a total of 3 Stations
there is a small downtown area
and a Cornish village
I would like to put in a small business that off loads wood with thrall cars, but no room
So I need to figure out lift outs and talk to the wife, since I have to share the space as she does some sewing down there too. Now if you can convince her for a return loop that won't interfere with the laundry space and her sawing table under the stairs...we would be all good to go.
I do not want to install a helix, I figure just lowering the track to the lower area will allow me to hit the hidden storage yard there