I'm at the point of my latest, and last layout. While I have used Woodland Scenic products for many, many years, this is the first time I am going to use its ballast. I did a section with the HO fine ballast and found that the ballast seems to jump all over the place when very lightly brushed (before glueing) resulting in a lot of ballast on the side rails and ties. It really resists lying flat. This is much different than rock ballast I have used in the past.
My question is, is there someway to stop the WS ballast from moving around so easily -- it really causes a lot of extra work and with over 600 feet of mainline to ballast, I'm thinking of going back to the real rock ballast.
Can you help? Thanks. Ken
ps I have always kept mainline ballast even with the tops of the ties. Watching Cody's Office, I noticed he doesn't and also seems to have it lightly ballasted between the rails. Just wondering what the masses here do for the tie level of ballast. Do you prefer level with the tops? Slightly (1/16") below? Other?
kenkal My question is, is there someway to stop the WS ballast from moving around so easily -- it really causes a lot of extra work and with over 600 feet of mainline to ballast, I'm thinking of going back to the real rock ballast.
Short answer - no. The WS product is not rock and will not behave like it. I've gotten OK results from it by exercising extreme care wetting and gluing, but it still likes to move. If you're ballasting that much track switching to a real rock product sounds like a better solution.
Just wondering what the masses here do for the tie level of ballast. Do you prefer level with the tops? Slightly (1/16") below? Other?
I look at prototype photos and vary the level as appropriate.
Rob Spangler
I spray rubbing alcohol on the ballast to wet it before applying glue, using a plant mister type of small sprayer.
From what I have read on these forums in the past, some Woodland Scenics ballast is made of ground up walnut shell, so it has a natural tendency to float on the water/glue mixture. Adding a couple drops of liquid dish detergent to your glue mixture may help, too.
I use WS ballast, and generally ballast to the tops of the ties except near the point rails of turnouts. Sidings and industrial areas may be ballasted more or less, and I often mix-in or add ground foam and/or dirt.
To ballast, I use a paper cup to spread a fairly generous heap of ballast along the centre of the track, then use a soft 1" brush to spread it, continually brushing along the track in one direction. This will spread some of the material to the sides and over the rails, but I concentrate on the area between the rails until it's at tie-top level or whatever other level I want. At this stage, there will be some loose ballast atop the ties. I then use the cup to distribute ballast along the shoulders, usually letting it find its own "angle of repose", then use the brush to level the material as needed. Any excessive build-up on the sloped areas can be lightly brushed or pressed lightly with the flat of the brush. Again, there will be some grains of ballast left on the tie tops. When the general arrangement of the ballast is satisfactory, grasp the ferrule of the brush between your thumb and forefinger, laying the handle across the track so that it's in contact with both rails, then lightly and rapidly tap the handle using your other hand, all the while moving along the track. The ballast atop the ties will "magically" bounce into the spaces between the ties. If this procedure still leaves excess ballast atop the ties, it's usually because there's still too much ballast in the spaces - use the brush to move it further along the line, then repeat the trick with the brush.
When you're satisfied with the appearance, use a good-quality sprayer (one that's capable of producing a fine mist) to thoroughly wet the area with water to which you've added a few drops of dish detergent. Your first sprays should be aimed upwards, so that the mist falls gently onto the loose ballast, then, once the surface has been dampened, you can spray directly. Don't get too close, or the force may dislodge the lighter material. Continue spraying until water appears along the verges of the right-of-way - this will indicate when the water has penetrated to the bottom of the ballast, very important if you want a good bond. I use an applicator bottle to apply a 50/50 mixture of white glue and water, but you can also use matte medium and water. Vary the proportions of the components to suit your personal preferences. Continue applying the mixture until it also appears at the edges of the ballast: this indicates complete saturation of the glue and will assure a good bond and a good finished appearance. Depending on your situation, this may take a day or two to dry, although I had some areas where the depth of material (rip-rap, and other fill material) was so great that drying required up to a week.
Wayne
doctorwayne I use WS ballast, and generally ballast to the tops of the ties except near the point rails of turnouts. Sidings and industrial areas may be ballasted more or less, and I often mix-in or add ground foam and/or dirt. Wayne
I also use WS ballast, and do it this way, but where I differ is that I apply 70% Rubbing Alcohol to the ballast with an eye dropper. Then I use a 60-40 mixture of Matt Medium and water as the bonding agent. I do about three feet of track at a time, max. Then I move to a different section if I am going to keep ballasting.
I have found that the Alcohol is a better wetting agent than water with dish detergent added. Photo-Flow can also be used as a wetting agent for water, but I have not ever used it.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
doctorwayne,
Thanks for the tip about removing ballast from the top of ties, it sounds like a great idea that I'll put to use very soon.
From the "other" Wayne on the forum,
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
gandydancer19 I have found that the Alcohol is a better wetting agent than water with dish detergent added. Photo-Flow can also be used as a wetting agent for water, but I have not ever used it.
Yeah, I neglected to mention it, but alcohol works as a wetting agent, too. If your water is especially hard, it's probably a better choice. I find that the water here works well, and it's a lot cheaper than alcohol. Also, for some reason I find the smell of the alcohol bothers me quite a bit, although not if it's the drinkin' kind. When ballasting, I usually do the basic lineside ground cover at the same time (taking advantage of the glue run-off) and in some areas, the ballast/fill combination can be quite deep: about 10' or 12' of track at a time seems to work well. I don't recall where I found these dropper bottles, but they work well for applying the glue mixture and would probably be useful for your alcohol application, too.
I've seen others mention using ketchup or mustard squeeze bottles for this, but I don't know how much control you'd have over the rate of flow. A larger applicator would be useful for areas like these, though:
You mean we're not suppose to be drinking isopropyl alcohol? Maybe that's my problem....
Did not know that WS ballast is not rock,so who makes the rock ballast.
Russell
Scenic Express makes real rock ballast.
I used the WS Fine ballast for my layout, and it worked fine. I used Doctorwayne's method, with some slight modifications. I uses a 3/4" soft brush, which allows me to clean off the ties as I go, and it's pretty much the exact width to fit between the rails.
To do the shoulders, I pour on ballast as Wayne suggests, then use a 1" foam applicator to smooth out the ballast next to the rails, and let gravity take the rest. Then I use the applicator to touch up the shape to my liking, adding a little more if necessary.
I wet the ballast with 35% isopropyl alcohol (the 70% stuff you buy in the store, diluted 50% with filtered water). I use a pipette to apply it rather than a sprayer. If you're careful to dribble rather than squirt, it doesn't displace the ballast, and even helps wash any stray pieces off of the ties. Wet thoroughly, starting with the area between the rails (it will wick out to the outsides), then finish by dribbling it next to the rails on the outside, until you can see liquid in all the ballast.
I apply the adhesive (matte medium diluted 1:4 with filtered water and 2 drops of dishwashing liquid per cup of solution) with an old glue bottle. Again, the key is to dribble it on in the same manner as the wetting agent, and keep adding it until it oozes out the bottom of the ballast.. Care needs to be taken when inverting the bottle, as this can create a "slosh" which will cause adhesive to shoot out, displacing the ballast.
So, WS ballast may be a little nutty, but it works just fine.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
On the 1:1 railroads I have observed around south central Texas ballasting varies from all over the top of the ties to 2 or 3 inches below the ties depending on the crew and how many beers they had the night before. So, as long as your trains run properly it would be hard to say you are not prototypically correct. That said, most modelers like to have a reasonably attractive and consistent appearance to their ballast. I spread mine as evenly and possible but don't worry too much if a little ends up on top of the rails. If it bothers you then spend as much time as you wish to get it the way you want it with the various methods that have been suggested.
The LION has more than nine scale miles of track to ballast. Woodland Scenics would become very expensive at that point. The LION buys his ballast at Walmart, a 25 pound bag for about four dollars. This works just fine if you are not put off by the picture of a cat on the bag. I sift the material through a window screen, and what makes it through goes to the train room, what is left over is returned to the cats who cannot tell the difference.
I do not glue the ballast in place. I spread it, brush it and groom it into place and then let gravity do the rest. If I want to realign or repair the track, I can push the stuff out of the way or I can vacuum it up, and I am left with virgin sub-road bed.
Here is the finished product. You tell me what you think!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
csxns Did not know that WS ballast is not rock,so who makes the rock ballast.
I used High Ball Ballast. Highball Products Company is located in Cincinnati, Ohio
Ken
Thank you to all who responded with your thoughts and ideas.
Guess I'm out of luck with the WS ballast not floating all over when I brush it down.
The techniques several of you who commented that you use are pretty much what I do.
I'll probably keep my mainline ballast fairly even with the tops of the ties.
FYI, for spreading the alcohol wetting liquid and the diluted matte medium, I've been using the 2 and 4oz. contact solution bottles. The round or oval shaped ones seem to work equally well. They have an extremely fine hole in the tip which allows good control over dropping the stuff on the layout and you can move along as fast or as slow as you like.. However, be aware that some just don't have a fine hole for some reason, although most do.
I found the 12 oz. contact solution containers generally put too much liquid weight on that tip and the contents sort of comes out quite quickly and the 1 oz. size works fine, but has to be refilled too often.
Thanks again. Ken.
Ken:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is to use a foam brush instead of one with bristles. I can't recall where I saw this suggested but I tried it and found it to be easier to use for ballast grooming. You will still have a few loose granules floating around but not as many as before.
Joe
Thanks Joe, I'll give it a shot this weekend. Ken
If you are talking about loose ballast while brushing it off the ties, try using a foam brush instead of one with bristles. I find that the bristles are like slingshots.
If you're using a brush, work in one direction only and keep the handle of the brush almost parallel with the tops of the ties - nothing will be launched anywhere.
Diamond Jim If you are talking about loose ballast while brushing it off the ties, try using a foam brush instead of one with bristles. I find that the bristles are like slingshots.
If you look at my procedure on the 1st page, you'll see that I recommend the use of a 1" foam applicator on the outside of the rails and shoulders. I've never had trouble launching ballast with a brush, though.
And Broadway Lion -- please understand that I firmly believe you should do what you want on your own layout, but that ballast looks a little big to me. I'd also be worried about the unglued ballast getting stuck in the drives of my locos. Ease of ballast removal in the off chance that I want to relocate track isn't enough of an advantage for me.
In five years of weekly operation I once had a piece of ballast stuck in a locomotive gear. Ran a few inches then stopped, ran backward a few inches then stopped. I found it after simple deduction and a few choice words.
Personally, I use sand ballast where I can and let it settle for a few weeks of run time before gluing it. Alcohol works far better than soap with my hard water even with the WS stuff.
Ballast on smaller lines often did not come to the tops of the ties. Be careful though about making it too thin ...
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
CTValleyRR Diamond Jim: And Broadway Lion -- please understand that I firmly believe you should do what you want on your own layout, but that ballast looks a little big to me. I'd also be worried about the unglued ballast getting stuck in the drives of my locos. Ease of ballast removal in the off chance that I want to relocate track isn't enough of an advantage for me.
Diamond Jim:
As you say. But the LION does move his tracks around a lot. I just took out a two track helix to replace it with a four track helix. I just tore out NYP and will replace it with the 34th Street / 7th Avenue station.
What the heck, if the prototype NYCT can move tracks around, then so can I. ☺
I've used WS ballast for years. What I found was that mixing their ballast with sand from sand tubes (50/50) mix, helps with the float away problem. I had the best luck gluing it down by saturating it with alcohol, then using a thicker white glue mixture (60/40; water/glue) mixture. This helps prevent the glue from washing it away.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
TA462 I only do around a foot at a time that way I'm not rushing and can do a better job.
I only do around a foot at a time that way I'm not rushing and can do a better job.
Right But I am not going to wait 600 days to ballast my railroad!
I've never had a problem with WS ballast floating. It can, however, be washed away if it's piled on a steep slope. To prevent this, use a brush to paint-on full-strength white glue, then sprinkle the ballast in place. Carefully level it with a brush, then mist with wet water or alcohol and add your dilute white glue/matte medium mixture. Don't be stingy with the ballast, either: if the underlying slope is too steep, either alter it accordingly or use enough ballast to to re-form the slope.
BroadwayLion CTValleyRR: And Broadway Lion -- please understand that I firmly believe you should do what you want on your own layout, but that ballast looks a little big to me. I'd also be worried about the unglued ballast getting stuck in the drives of my locos. Ease of ballast removal in the off chance that I want to relocate track isn't enough of an advantage for me. As you say. But the LION does move his tracks around a lot. I just took out a two track helix to replace it with a four track helix. I just tore out NYP and will replace it with the 34th Street / 7th Avenue station. What the heck, if the prototype NYCT can move tracks around, then so can I. ☺
CTValleyRR: And Broadway Lion -- please understand that I firmly believe you should do what you want on your own layout, but that ballast looks a little big to me. I'd also be worried about the unglued ballast getting stuck in the drives of my locos. Ease of ballast removal in the off chance that I want to relocate track isn't enough of an advantage for me.
If you're moving tracks around so often, perhaps you're adding ballast prematurely. When you decide on a "final" trackplan that suits your operational preferences, you can add ballast in a more permanent manner, yet still make select changes at a later date without too much difficulty. I'd be concerned not only with loose material getting into places where you don't want it, but also with the maintenance issues it will cause: if you need to clean track, is it going to disturb the ballast, especially the profile along the edges? I don't clean track, but I do vacuum the layout occasionally, especially the track: even in a fairly controlled layout area, dust and cobwebs are inevitable.
And, when the time comes, I'd suggest going with scale-size ballast: it's not that expensive, even for a layout of the size you have: after all, it's not like locos or rolling stock, where we always "need" more.
Thanks for all the great advice, guys - even though I wasn't the OP and just stumbled onto this thread. I used 70% alcohol for my wetting - the soap/water wasn't working, maybe my water's too hard? I applied both the alky and the glue with those small pipettes, the ones that are 3.5" inches long and they worked well. This was just for a diorama, so alcohol cost and the small quantity of the pipettes wasn't a problem; I'm not sure this would be suitable for a large layout. But for this project, success!
doctorwayne ...[WS Ballast] can, however, be washed away if it's piled on a steep slope. To prevent this, use a brush to paint-on full-strength white glue, then sprinkle the ballast in place...
...[WS Ballast] can, however, be washed away if it's piled on a steep slope. To prevent this, use a brush to paint-on full-strength white glue, then sprinkle the ballast in place...
This tip hadn't been added when I did mine, but I thought of it myself and did it. I second the fine doctor's suggestion. Another bonus from this is that if one misses a small spot with the final glue application and the ballast falls away, it's not showing bare road bed.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
Colorado_Mac I applied both the alky and the glue with those small pipettes, the ones that are 3.5" inches long and they worked well. This was just for a diorama, so alcohol cost and the small quantity of the pipettes wasn't a problem; I'm not sure this would be suitable for a large layout. But for this project, success!
I applied both the alky and the glue with those small pipettes, the ones that are 3.5" inches long and they worked well. This was just for a diorama, so alcohol cost and the small quantity of the pipettes wasn't a problem; I'm not sure this would be suitable for a large layout. But for this project, success!
When I started out, I was using a medicine dropper to apply the diluted white glue. I found a tip that's really worked for me:
Happy ballasting!
If you're also ballasting turnouts, make sure to keep the level of the ballast below the tops of the ties, and don't place any ballast between the ties surrounding the throw bar. To avoid gluing the points to the ties, place two drops of plastic-compatible oil atop each tie over which the point rails move, one next to each point rail, then flip the points back-and-forth several times to spread the oil. Parking the points in mid-throw will also help to ensure that they don't get glued to the stock rails, either.
Here's how it turned out:
No one seemed to mention that if you tap the rail, the ballast will settle off the ties!
rrebell No one seemed to mention that if you tap the rail, the ballast will settle off the ties!
Actually, I mentioned it back in my first post on page one.