First off a little background on myself. I'm a operating kind of guy. As a former brakeman, dispatcher office operator, Tower Operator I like operation. Not really interested in industrial switching. Necessities are; 1. Double track, 2. Long sidings, 3. Plenty of interlockings, 4. A hump yard, 5. A passenger station, 6. A engine house and facilities, 7. Two levels, 8. Around the wall with accessibility without openings in the layout. Most of this has been thought of in the attached drawing (left and right side since it is a wide image and the restriction of photo size for attachments. The yet to be built room will be 10x19' in a un-finished basement with a stone foundation. One wall will be the foundation (open, no layout except for a short portion). The built walls (all wood, no cheap drywall) will have the layout in a 'self' like design. The basement get very humid anytime it rains, especially in the spring (varies from as low as 40% to close to 100%). I will have a dehumidifier for that enclosed room. I'm hoping by somewhat isolating the room on three sides and partially enclosing the ceiling I will have a handle on humidity. There is no issue in the winter other than temperature (varies from 40-45 degrees to close to 80 degrees). Other than the humidity, am I going to have a issue with 'heat kinks' and/or pull aparts?? Those figures are extremes. Temp. ranges from close to upper 40's to upper 70's. High humidity is usually short lived, except under long rainy periods (mostly in the spring). I talked to a modeler locally in HO scale and he had problems with pull-aparts & heat kinks. But, that was in HO. Is N more or less prone to this? My first (real) layout was a 5x7' modified 'L' shaped table in a bedroom. For a 1st (real) layout, my major resign fault was excessive grades, especially for the hump. MicroTrains trucks allowed the cars to literally crash into the bumpers at the ends of the tracks sometimes on to the floor. One excessively sharp curve at the top of the grade caused straight-lining with longer trains due to the grades. I have close to 250 freight & passenger cars all with MT trucks & couplers. My power rooster is 23 freight & passenger (Atlas & Life Like), all diesel. No DCC. The right side has a elevated portion that will include a passenger station with siding off either main. No, there is no 'coach yard' as I don't seem to have room for it without actually seeing it in 3d (after the table frame is built and can visualize the look as it is planned now). The left side is the hump & receiving yard with engine facilities. I changed the location of the facilities a couple of times and as it stands it needs to be change again since I don't like tracks on either side of the receiving yard 'lead'. The 'squares' on the drawing at 12". Table depth is limited to three feet, but I'm concerned about access along the long wall so I plan hinged cutouts that drop down on that wall and the far right angled corner. I don't want to reduce the depth to 30" since it will 'cram' all of the too close together. It's alot as it is.
I originally had split the drawing into halves. Disregard the portion of the texts reference to left & right sides (since I can't edit these posts).
I've been using a de-humidifier in an occasionally damp location for years, and it works great. I've got a hose from it to a floor drain. Only problem is that mold grows in the condensate and tends to plug the hose. I clean it out once in awhile, and it's acceptable to me.
On the plan: I think I'd like a hump bypass track. And it would be nice to have a turntable or a wye or something like that.
Ed
First, the drawing doesn't appear to have the turnouts drawn to scale, so you may find things won't fit as intended. There are some very sharp turnout angles shown.
Since you like operation, having some kind of staging for trains before they enter/after they leave the major yard would seem to be desirable. As the plan currently stands, you don't have a way to support the traffic that would be using the yard, unless you want to just have a small number of trains that get made up and then broken down again without traveling anywhere.
I also have some concern about the single-ended hump yard. There's only one way in our out, which means everything that gets classified has to come back out over the hump. This would be an unusual prototype situation, and very restrictive for multiple person operations, but you'd have to decide for yourself if those are potential problems for you.
Rob Spangler
For the basement rather than getting a dehumidifier consider a portable air conditioner. They have them now that are 3 in one. Heat, Cool, and dehumidifiy only. The cooling mode will of course also dehumidify.
With the heat mode you'll be able to run in the winter as well.
Here's a link to one but there are many more out there. They've become very popular the last couple of years. There are many sizes, features and price ranges.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100664579/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Springfield PA
Bruce,
That basement space of yours is interesting. Does it really have a 30 degree or so swing in temperatures? My basement is unfinished (concrete foundation walls and floor) and it pretty much stays between 55 and 60 year round. Yes, you are going to have issues with expansion and contraction of your layout. My recommendation would be to leave a small, gap with an unsoldered rail joiner between your power districts to allow for expansion and contraction.
I lived in a house with a fieldstone foundation before I moved here. I actually had running water in the basement when it rained. Do you have a way to vent to the outside? That will be a crucial component of a portable heating / cooling / dehumidifying system. And make sure you aren't kidding yourself about conditions in that basement. Mold, etc. on your layout would not be pretty, and humid air destroys electronics.
When you say you're an operating guy who doesn't want a lot of industrial switching, I assume you just want to move cars around the layout. If so, you've done pretty well, although I agree that the yard should be double ended. You can make some retarders out of styrene to keep your cars from running out of the far end of your yard (and don't put a very big hump in it -- maybe half an inch of height will do you). It looks like you did this drawing with drafting tools and just fudged the turnouts. I'd invest in some software (or use one of the free ones) and make sure you're not kidding yourself on what will fit. Personally, I like AnyRail, but there are lots of other products out there.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Over the years, there have been a few discussions on the forums about hump yards. I think the consensus is that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get one that really works the way the prototype does. There is simply no way to reliably control the roll. There's too much variation between models, and there is no practical working retarder that I've ever seen.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
This is what I plan on doing. I already have a hose draining the condensate from the two furnaces (house is a 1917 double) to the floor drain. I don't have any mold there, so I wouldn't expect it here, but the hose is a larger diameter that what I believe dehumidifier hoses are, so that may be a factor and it is on a slight incline aiding draining.
I have thought about a bypass at the top of the bowl back to the hump lead, but didn't think it would be much of a benefit. As to a 'wye' or TT, that would be nice, but there isn't any real room I don't think without major revisions.
Correct, the turnouts and probably to short & sharp. I realize this, but I'm unsure of which track I will use; Atlas or Peco, I'm leaning towards Peco, but that is another topic.
Staging meaning storage, usually a somewhat hidden as a layover area. Correct? I was hoping the three long sidings might suffice. How about adding a parallel siding off some of those?
I also thought about a two ended hump yard, but mostly dismissed this due to space at the other end and basically no where to go with the 'hill' at the end of the tracks. Where you see where the 10 tracks end will be a steep incline where some type of passenger station will be. That is another problem I haven't got into yet until the table is built and I have a 3d perspective. My original layout had the same deal, a single ended hump.where I had to pull back over the hill to extract made up blocks of cars.
This will probably be a single person operation the majority of the time. One ML train on automatic, then either a 2nd ML train or yard operation which is how I operated my 5x7' layout. Yes, I know this is a huge difference between that and this. I will have to think about this some more.
I have seen those silly so called 'portable' AC units. You have to run the exhaust outside somehow, you also have the condensate to deal with (though the same with a dehumidifier).
1st off they are 2x the price of a similar capacity window unit,
Second, they are way less efficient,
Third, electric heat is very expensive. If anything a small natural gas powered heater, or just taping off the furnace ducts (overhead) would be a far better idea.
Yes. The foundation is stone. I watch the humidity and temperature all the time I go down there though high temperatures I never was concerned about until now. I'm guessing at 80 as a extreme high, more like 75. Average winter temperature is 50.
In the 30 + years I have lived here, I only had two 'floods'. At the highest point on the basement floor the water was only three inches. This was solved by the city adding a third sewer pipe under the main street near me (in addition to the two already there) as a 'holding tank' for heavy ran runoff. There hasn't been a problem since. I do have seepage after substantial rains at two locations, neither in the proposed room. One location I just apparently sealed it off using hydraulic cement, but it is too soon to tell if it will work since we are past the rainy season. The other location is as bad, but it it within two feet of the floor drain at the lowest part of the basement so it isn't a major issue.
Any other 'seepage' is just that, where the foundation meets the floor it is just damp and this is at floor level.
I did use a compass, but you are right, I freehanded the turnouts. I know some won't fit as shown, but I'm not at that stage right now. I'm not a graphic artist, I don't want to do AutoCad or anything close, but I would like to look into software. I did d/l a free program called 'SCRAM", but haven't installed it yet.
videobruceStaging meaning storage, usually a somewhat hidden as a layover area. Correct? I was hoping the three long sidings might suffice. How about adding a parallel siding off some of those?
Staging isn't necessarily what I would call "storage" or "layover," but use of the term is open to debate depending on how the track is being used during operation. By staging, i mean places for a train to originate before it gets to your modeled yard, or teerminate after it leaves (I interpret layover as someplace where a train temporarily waits before it runs again). As your plan sits right now, you can support only a couple of trains coming to or leaving your yard, so it will be tough to represent much "throughput" or variety. If you're OK with this limitation I suppose that's fine, as you're primarily intending to run solo.
A couple of quick thoughts....
1. If you think of your layout as being a theater stage, "staging" tracks would be like the off stage wings where actors wait to enter the stage and then where they exit the stage. It represents the non-modelled portion of the railroad, since no one has room to model everything. It's basically a place where trains are made up (often by hand, sometimes called "fiddling") ahead of the operating session and are sitting ready to go when the session starts.
For example if you want a layout with a hump yard, you might have trains arriving in the yard from the staging area to be broken down and sent over the hump, and have switchers working to assemble new trains would be sent out from the yard and go into staging.
2. What type of track you use has a LOT to do in planning the layout. If you're planning on running a lot of passenger trains, you may want very broad turnouts / switches like No. 8 or even larger. However, not all model track lines make turnouts larger than No.6. BTW if you're worried about humidity and expansion / contraction, take a look at Kato Unitrack. Since the roadbed and track is connected, it isn't affected the way the traditional cork roadbed glued on plywood is.
videobruce I'm a operating kind of guy. As a former brakeman, dispatcher office operator, Tower Operator I like operation. Not really interested in industrial switching.
I'm a operating kind of guy. As a former brakeman, dispatcher office operator, Tower Operator I like operation. Not really interested in industrial switching.
Generally "operating" and "indistrial switching" go together. Operating a layout normally implies way freights stopping to drop off and pick up cars, switchers making up and braking down trains etc. I think you may be more of a "runner"; someone who wants to see long mainline trains running smoothly along a well scenicked layout - normally with "continous run" trackplan rather than a point-to-point layout. Of course operating can involve scheduling meets between trains, running on a timetable etc. so maybe that's what you're looking for??
If your floor is damp it's because the water table is just beneath it. You might consider a sump pump. Half of my neighborhood has them and it does the trick. As to the portable AC units I know 2 people with them and they work fine. Also electric heat is almost as the same price as oil or lower today since the fuel prices have risen.
With those large swings in humidity and temperature you're sure to have issues wiht benchwork expanding and contracting. Also mold potentially growing in any plaster or similar scenery materials. Just suggestions your decision.
videobruce I did use a compass, but you are right, I freehanded the turnouts. I know some won't fit as shown, but I'm not at that stage right now. I'm not a graphic artist, I don't want to do AutoCad or anything close, but I would like to look into software. I did d/l a free program called 'SCRAM", but haven't installed it yet.
I designed Phase 1 of my layout on RTS, a free program from Atlas (www.atlasrr.com) and Phase 2 on XTrakCad from www.xtrkcad.org. Both are free. There's a bit of a learning curve, more for XtrakCad, but it's also a more capable program.
Another option is to get a few of the turnouts you plan to use, make paper copies of them and then physically lay out the track plan full sized on the floor. This also helps you visualize the actual layout. When I did Phase 1, I went through this exercise with old brass track, and it helped me pick out some flaws in my plan. (Don't actually use old brass track for your layout, though.)
To address the possible expansion/contraction issues, seal your benchwork with a good enamel paint. The other issues humidity and temperature control have been pretty much addressed by other posters.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
BTW if you're worried about humidity and expansion / contraction, take a look at Kato Unitrack. Since the roadbed and track is connected, it isn't affected the way the traditional cork roadbed glued on plywood is.
I haven't decided about using cork or not yet. Since you mentioned it, regarding 'heat kinks', what/where does cork come into play that is glued down to a plywood base, how or why does that affect the rail?
Understood about staging and yes about being a "runner" .
With those large swings in humidity and temperature you're sure to have issues wiht benchwork expanding and contracting. Also mold potentially growing in any plaster or similar scenery materials.
How much humidity and for how long are we talking about here? This isn't the tropics.
Regarding the sump pump; That would be to large of a undertaking. The perimeter of the whole basement would have to be dug up.
Another option is to get a few of the turnouts you plan to use, make paper copies of them and then physically lay out the track plan full sized on the floor.
Often what is perceived as rail expansion/contraction issues with temperature in the model turns out to actually be change in the wood from variations in humidity. The wood shrinks or expands and that change is visible in the track.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I never had the issue and I never have seen it. The only 1st hand report were from co-workers in HO scale. By the description it wasn't the framework that changed, it was the rail.
If it was framework, I can't imagine that it would be much more than a few MM's over a 10'+ of table. If so, if the benchwork expands, wouldn't the track expand along with it (within reason)?
videobruceThe only 1st hand report were from co-workers in HO scale. By the description it wasn't the framework that changed, it was the rail.
That's often the perception, because changes in wood (invisible) create changes in the track (visible).
videobruce If so, if the benchwork expands, wouldn't the track expand along with it (within reason)?
No. Plastic and metal don't expand and contract with changes in moisture as does wood.
If you don't believe that it will affect you, that's perfectly fine. Best of luck.
hi
metal expands with temperature, not with moisture.
Smile
Paul
Plastic and metal don't expand and contract with changes in moisture as does wood.If you don't believe that it will affect you, that's perfectly fine.
BTW, I never said I didn't believe this happens.
I wrote a longer reply on facebook with the drawing. I'll try to give the short version.
I plan on experimenting on the grades unlike my 1st hump which were excessive,
A three foot width rules out 18" radius curves,
I do plan on drawing to scale certain critical parts. I realize some 'tweaking' will happen as I question my guesswork for some of the crossovers and turnouts,
Interesting about the sidings on the far side. I never thought about that. I wanted sidings off of each track for flexibility. Due to distance from the table edge, that siding at the bottom of the plan I wanted as near as possible for easier reaching. Your point makes sense, but access in this case is more important. As far as the extended yard lead/siding at the left, can't do much about that.
Regarding that end of the yard, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you talking about the x-over nearest the ladder? I want that for direct access to that end of the yard. Same goes for the other x-over. Right in, right out. I have a x-over at the top of the drawing from the outer to inner track.
I'm working on the moisture problem. The easiest solution is to dig down five feet and 'seal' the area where the water is seeping in (around 3-4 feet worth).
What/where do you mean "tower points"?
The drawing that was posted did not show where the access was to the outside world. You showed the corners of the layout with 45 degree cutouts. Were these going to be access points? The middle of the bottom of the drawing shows an area that implies access. Your 3-foot reach access depends on the height of the layout. It just seems that you are condeming yourself to those tight ridii when other solutions might be available.
The crossover refered to is in the lower left corner of your drawing coming out of the 4 track thru yard. The usual prototype practice is to make the access to the yard available from either main. The left hand crossover gets you from the yard lead to one main (the middle track) the right hand crossover gets you from that main back to the lead. The other main has no access.
As to the tower reference you said you had worked for a railroad so I thought you would know. The modern term is control point. I too have worked for the Engineering Department of railroads for most of my professional career. Prior to CTC the areas where the crossovers are were controled by a tower operator at that point. The adjacent tower operators handed off the trains by communications with each other or instructions from the dispatcher. Most of the Pennsylvania RR was run this way prior to CTC. My hangout in the Army was with one of the NE corridor operators.
I'll leave you alone now. As before, have fun!
The right corner is planned to have access, the area area around those six turnouts on the back straight will have access. Both a cut out panel, hinged that will drop down from the outside. All walls will be plywood.
Regarding the tight radius, I don't want one of those balloon (Horseshoe curve) track designs just to have a wider radius. That would also put the depth of the table over three feet. Since those two extensions at each end are short, I don't have the ability to do much else.
Regarding access off the other main, I doubt I would have room for another x-over in that short stretch. As stated, there is a x-over at the top of the drawing, around that other curve that has the tight radius. I will have to wait until I draw a scaled sized drawing to see what actually fits. I'm reasonable sure I will use Peco 55 as of now. I don't feel like changing out 1,000 axles on 250 cards, let along try to do anything with 23 diesels.
I didn't know what you were referring to when you just said "Tower" since I never mentioned this. CP's or Interlockings would of got my attention immediately.
Ever been to 'Hunter'??
videobruceRegarding access off the other main, I doubt I would have room for another x-over in that short stretch.
With a slight change to the yard approach (start just above the curve) and judicious use of double-slip switches, you just might fit in another cross-over.
Dante
videobruce The yet to be built room will be 10x23' in a un-finished basement with a stone foundation. One wall will be the foundation (open, no layout except for a short portion). The built walls (all wood, no cheap drywall) will have the layout in a 'self' like design. The basement get very humid anytime it rains, especially in the spring (varies from as low as 40% to close to 100%). I will have a dehumidifier for that enclosed room. I'm hoping by somewhat isolating the room on three sides and partially enclosing the ceiling I will have a handle on humidity. There is no issue in the winter other than temperature (varies from 40-45 degrees to close to 80 degrees).
The yet to be built room will be 10x23' in a un-finished basement with a stone foundation. One wall will be the foundation (open, no layout except for a short portion). The built walls (all wood, no cheap drywall) will have the layout in a 'self' like design. The basement get very humid anytime it rains, especially in the spring (varies from as low as 40% to close to 100%). I will have a dehumidifier for that enclosed room. I'm hoping by somewhat isolating the room on three sides and partially enclosing the ceiling I will have a handle on humidity. There is no issue in the winter other than temperature (varies from 40-45 degrees to close to 80 degrees).
No offense intended, but is that basement located in a swamp?
One thing about basements, assuming that they are fully below grade, is that temperature and humidity swings are negligible as both tend to remain fairly constant from season to season.
In any event, with the temperature and humidity swings that you are describing, you better believe you are going to experience kinks and pull aparts, expansion and contraction.
Rich
Alton Junction
Not even close. Most of WNY has a layer of clay a foot or two below grade which I beleive is most of the problem.
Regarding temperature swings, apparently all of you live in the suburbs with concrete or cinder block foundations where the above isn't a problem Also apparent is you probably have never been in a house with a stone foundation let alone owned one.
Another factor, these houses foundations are only 2/3 below grade (around four feet) unlike new houses. Basement windows are around two feet square unlike new houses where one can hardly see out on one of those narrow so called windows..
Have any of you have a thermometer and hydrometer in your basement? I would bet you would be surprised of the 'swings'.