To be honest I'm shamefaced to show my idea as I know I can be doing some mistakes, but I tried to read and learn how should be. I'm based in the SWITCHMAN'S NIGHTMARE BECOMES A PROTOTYPE DREAM and extended to my room space. My challange was to depend on the turnouts I already have, same with structures(this limitation was to have the possibility to try everything and no wasting my money, if not I start buying I know I don't stop he).
It's HO scale 100 code most with Atlas flex track, and 4 four (in the yard) #4 Atlas turnout. Two left, and two right. Then two double slip, and the others are Atlas #6 Turnouts.
Of course any help and opinion/recommendation is received and listened. I'm here to learn :D
--> My 2x8 layout
Thanks for reading!!
A couple of questions instead of an opinion.
How do you intend to operate the layout? Without a purpose for moving the cars around, movement for the sake of movement will become pretty boring pretty fast.
Also do you ever intend to incorporate this layout into another? If so before you go ahead and build it you might want to plan out the expansion to see how (or if) it fits in.
Seems a bit too track heavy to me. The Switchman's neighmare is a very tight switching layout in it's own right. Adding an engine terminal pushes it over the top for my taste.
How about doing this as two separate layout - one engine terminal, and one industry area with a small auxiliary yard?
The terminal could be on it's own shelf somewhere else, or on it's own separate shelf e.g. 16" below the switching shelf.
Then linking the two layouts/scenes conceptually by transferring an engine from the engine terminal to the industry area by driving the engine onto a small cassette (e.g. a Peco loco lift) on one layout, then moving the cassette by hand to the switching shelf, and driving the engine onto the switching shelf.
As for a switching shelf - the thing I don't like about the Switchman's nightmare and things like Timesavers and Inglenooks is that they tend to make switching leads extremely short.
Various tricks can be used to extend the length of switching leads, even on smallish shelf layouts.
Here is e.g. a small 8x2 foot H0 scale track plan I derived from Byron Henderson's N scale 18" x 6 foot switching layout San Jose Switcher. - it still is too compressed, ideally it should have been about 30" x 11 feet in H0 scale to replicate the openness of Byron's plan, but some things have to give when you try to shoehorn in an H0 scale layout in a small space:
The cars shown as 40' cars - i.e transition era cars, shorter than most modern cars. Engine shown is a short switcher. Note that in one foot of track you have room for two cars. To hold an engine and two such cars you need minimum 18-20" of switching lead (depending on the size of your engine) of switching lead.
The neat trick in the plan this one is based on is using two curved turnouts to form the curve/end of runaround to the left of the interchange track.
The challenges of a little sparser plan is having each industry having several doors or spots where specific cars have to be spotted, maybe have a road that must not be blocked too long at a time, taking the time to stop before switches and have a person "walk" from the engine to the switch to throw it (instead of throwing several switches ahead before you move the engine) and so on and so forth.
Also, Lance Mindheim has several cool tips on designing small switching layouts in his book "How to Design a Small Switching Layout".
By all means - don't let me discourage you from trying things your own way. It is your layout. But for me, it seems like you are trying to fit in too much on one small shelf.
Smile, Stein
Bob Sandusky A couple of questions instead of an opinion. How do you intend to operate the layout? Without a purpose for moving the cars around, movement for the sake of movement will become pretty boring pretty fast. Also do you ever intend to incorporate this layout into another? If so before you go ahead and build it you might want to plan out the expansion to see how (or if) it fits in.
Hi Bob, my idea is to have a small yard, where I can move 3 or 4 box/hopper cars. Giving them an order trough a random selection. The idea is NOT to incorporate it into another layout, but maybe if other friends creates they own modules they can be put together. I don't think this can happen, but it's a remote option.
steinjr Seems a bit too track heavy to me. The Switchman's neighmare is a very tight switching layout in it's own right. Adding an engine terminal pushes it over the top for my taste. How about doing this as two separate layout - one engine terminal, and one industry area with a small auxiliary yard? The terminal could be on it's own shelf somewhere else, or on it's own separate shelf e.g. 16" below the switching shelf. Then linking the two layouts/scenes conceptually by transferring an engine from the engine terminal to the industry area by driving the engine onto a small cassette (e.g. a Peco loco lift) on one layout, then moving the cassette by hand to the switching shelf, and driving the engine onto the switching shelf. As for a switching shelf - the thing I don't like about the Switchman's nightmare and things like Timesavers and Inglenooks is that they tend to make switching leads extremely short. Various tricks can be used to extend the length of switching leads, even on smallish shelf layouts. Here is e.g. a small 8x2 foot H0 scale track plan I derived from Byron Henderson's N scale 18" x 6 foot switching layout San Jose Switcher. - it still is too compressed, ideally it should have been about 30" x 11 feet in H0 scale to replicate the openness of Byron's plan, but some things have to give when you try to shoehorn in an H0 scale layout in a small space: The cars shown as 40' cars - i.e transition era cars, shorter than most modern cars. Engine shown is a short switcher. Note that in one foot of track you have room for two cars. To hold an engine and two such cars you need minimum 18-20" of switching lead (depending on the size of your engine) of switching lead. The neat trick in the plan this one is based on is using two curved turnouts to form the curve/end of runaround to the left of the interchange track. The challenges of a little sparser plan is having each industry having several doors or spots where specific cars have to be spotted, maybe have a road that must not be blocked too long at a time, taking the time to stop before switches and have a person "walk" from the engine to the switch to throw it (instead of throwing several switches ahead before you move the engine) and so on and so forth. Also, Lance Mindheim has several cool tips on designing small switching layouts in his book "How to Design a Small Switching Layout". By all means - don't let me discourage you from trying things your own way. It is your layout. But for me, it seems like you are trying to fit in too much on one small shelf. Smile, Stein
Thanks steinjr for your answer, It looks a very interesting layout but I wanted to have my locomotive service. I don't have the possibility to have two layouts, since I've to move all my room just to fit the 2x8, I know the two of them don't need to be together at the same time, but I think that with mine two persons can operate, "receiving" a train with one or more locomotive going to the service area, and cars moved by a swtich to the yard area. Does it sound crazy??
Is there any video of this layout to see it working?Here is an update of pics of the two modules I built in the past, and I'm planning to use,
hi fondo,
the issue isw not if it sounds crazy or not, but lack of information.
"Recieving a train?"; where did the train came from (might be virtual), where does that train arrive and where are it's engines? How long are those trains?
It is very hard to imagine without you giving more information.
BTW a constructed switchman's nightmare will never turn into a realistic operating layout. Unless as Byron Henderson did for Model Railroader lots of stuff is changed. A way longer passing siding and adding (longer) leads.
have fun, smile
paul
Paulus Jas hi fondo, the issue isw not if it sounds crazy or not, but lack of information. "Recieving a train?"; where did the train came from (might be virtual), where does that train arrive and where are it's engines? How long are those trains? It is very hard to imagine without you giving more information. BTW a constructed switchman's nightmare will never turn into a realistic operating layout. Unless as Byron Henderson did for Model Railroader lots of stuff is changed. A way longer passing siding and adding (longer) leads. have fun, smile paul
Hi Paulus Jas, the idea of the "incoming" train is by the track give access to the yard lead, and to the locomotive service. The train it wont come, I'll put as I already arrived.
Regarding realistic layout, it's hard me to know how they work as I don't know too much and things I tried to read are confusing as I don't know many terms or operations. Maybe there is a link where it explain in a very basic way?
I had another look at your plan, and see tracks seemingly extremely close together (you want minimum 2" track center to track center for parallel straight tracks), very sharp curves, some of them S-curves that will derail pretty much any car you try to push through them, and very short leads, which will create a world of frustrations trying to move 4-5 cars in and four-five vars out, one car at a time.
I think you are asking for frustrations here. But by all means - feel free to try it.
If you can make it work, kudos to you.
If not, you still will have learned something - and that's always worth doing too.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you.
Smile, Stein, out
steinjr I had another look at your plan, and see tracks seemingly extremely close together (you want minimum 2" track center to track center for parallel straight tracks), very sharp curves, some of them S-curves that will derail pretty much any car you try to push through them, and very short leads, which will create a world of frustrations trying to move 4-5 cars in and four-five vars out, one car at a time. I think you are asking for frustrations here. But by all means - feel free to try it. If you can make it work, kudos to you. If not, you still will have learned something - and that's always worth doing too. Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you. Smile, Stein, out
I didn't cut any turnout so the space between tracks it's ok(tested). I will give a try to this layout, but how do I know if it's operational? which tests can I make?
hi fondo
by being very specific about the moves your train will have to make.
I am not sure which track is your arrival track, so i tried to draw your plan..................
Some remarks are made in the drawing, your most important drill tracks are very short.
The cassette is performing miracles, with less tracks, a more fluent traffic
Smile
Paul
Paul, sorry but I don't understand the image, that layout do you recommend me? or it's mine?
the lower one is yours.............the upper one is mine. I only left some S-curves out
Paulus Jas hi fondo, the lower one is yours.............the upper one is mine. I only left some S-curves out Smile Paul
Paul, thanks for the clarification. What I note in the first layout, is that the yard lead needs an extra space beside the 8 feet? Also, in my layout, the straight track next to the circle would be the main line. So there is no arrival track especific, but I can use the main to take the cars with the switcher, and the locomotive goes to the service section. What do you think about this?
Hi Fondo,
What I would suggest is that if your track software will let you run trains, try running trains on your layout to get a feel of how it works or does not work. Then change the tracks around to improve your layout.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
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Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this?
None that I know of. I use 3rd Planit.
fondo Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this?
XtrkCad will allow you to "run" trains on connected track in a track plan. XtrkCad is an open source project that is a free download. It has extensive track (and structure) libraries that are continually updated by volunteers. The downside is a fairly steep learning curve compared to Atlas RTS. XtrkCad is pretty difficult to get without doing the tutorials once.
Fred W
I believe that Trainplayer can import Atlas track plans. You can get a 30 day free trial of it.
Make sure you use cars of the proper length when playing with it.
-Ed
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
fwright fondo: Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this? XtrkCad will allow you to "run" trains on connected track in a track plan. XtrkCad is an open source project that is a free download. It has extensive track (and structure) libraries that are continually updated by volunteers. The downside is a fairly steep learning curve compared to Atlas RTS. XtrkCad is pretty difficult to get without doing the tutorials once. Fred W
fondo: Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this?
Thanks Fred, I download and start using XtrkCa, the problem I've is how to made the two double slip I need, any tutorial on this?
I have not used double slip switches in a design. Nor do I use the train running feature - although I know both train running and double slip switches exist within the program. So I can't tell you much about how to do it. Best place for help is the XtrkCad Yahoo Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XTrkCad/).
My use of layout drawing programs is limited to fit checks and taking measurements of things like spur lengths. Even on my small layouts, the plan seldom stays intact between final version in software and reality on the layout. So my measurements don't always mean a whole lot.
Most of my assessment of a plan is done mentally from a plan - I know I want a spur to hold x number of cars. Is it long enough to do so? Do my intended structures fit along the spur? I then mentally move a train over the layout to simulate operations. Is the runaround track long enough? Is the tail track to a switchback or switchback spur long enough for engine plus desired number of cars? Would there normally be something blocking the tail track? Is my switching lead for spurs or yard tracks long enough?
Since I'm talking a single operator layout, I don't worry about fouling the main during switching operations. If I should ever have more than one operator, they can each switch distinctly different areas, and then arrange with each other to get to a different area. I'm into laid back, short line operations.
I guess I could benefit a little from "train running" on a layout plan, but I'd rather be building physically than playing in virtual space.
my thoughts, your choices
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Here is a video to explain my layout idea better. The train with the SD70M and the four cars is the mainline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2vigE2LiPs
What do you think?At the end, I forgot to put in the correct place for loading the empty cars which came with the SD70M
I guess I'm not seeing what the problem is.
On a small layout, there are bound to be switching "inconveniences". They are part of the fun and challenge. The challenge in planning is not to let these inconveniences get out of hand to the point where the layout becomes a unrealistic switching puzzle instead of a challenge.
At least those are my thoughts.
hi,
the YouTube show was reveiling. We seem to be unable to communicate.
But in general, you have very much track, for just 2 industries, that each hold two 40-ft long cars. Using a turn-table (circle?) for diesels?
Wish you the best
Paul what does it mean reveiling? Also I don't understand why you ask if the turntable is a circle?And yes, the turntable is 90' for diesels.
Hi all, here I put another option I thought. The main change is the arrival/departure track much more longer, easy access to the industry track next to the mainline.What I would like to know, if I can put a scale track in the upper track of yard track #1?
Waiting your opinions? Thanks for reading (:
fondo Hi all, here I put another option I thought. The main change is the arrival/departure track much more longer, easy access to the industry track next to the mainline.What I would like to know, if I can put a scale track in the upper track of yard track #1? Waiting your opinions? Thanks for reading (:
The picture below is from a very track heavy part of my layout - it has 8 tracks from wall to aisle in the foreground, 25" deep benchwork - the section you see is about 8 feet long to the back wall - as you can observe, there is not a lot of space in between the tracks.
Here is a FREMO module from a meet I went to last weekend - 4 tracks wide in 50 centimeters (19.5") of depth - with room for scenery on both sides of the tracks:
Here is a portable dense track switching layout I've just started on as a side project - 8 feet long, 12" deep, made in two 4 foot sections:
Now, looking at your last plan above, on the right side you have 7 tracks from the wall to above the engine house, then an engine house. On the left side of your plan you have the equivalent of six tracks, and then a turntable between that and the edge. On a 24" deep shelf.
This is track heavy. But for having that much track, your number of industry spots are still very limited, since you are trying to do three different things in a small layout : industries, a yard and an engine terminal, each of which in real life are huge things.
I still think you are trying to squeeze in way too much track. It is possibly marginally doable to fit in all that track on a layout that size, but I don't know if it is wise.
I would suggest going from H0 scale to N scale (which in effect in 8 feet of length gives you the same amount of space as you would have had in 14 feet of length in H0 scale).
Or researching the concept of "sure spots" - where each industry have a number of spots on the same track - say a food warehouse having three doors labeled "A", "B" and "C", with switching instructions saying e.g. "Frozen goods must be spotted at dock A, beverages at dock B and everything else delivered to dock C", making it necessary to sort the cars that go into the track in the right order and spot each car independently (not coupled together) so they match up precisely with the doors.
Having some things unloaded from two tracks in front of a building, where the people in the building unloading the car on the track closest to the building first, and then using a metal plate to bridge between that car and the car beyond it on the second track.
Now, when you pull the car on the track closest to the building, you will have to add in a little time to coordinate with the people at the plant, then pull the car on the track closest to the building, re-spot the partially unloaded car on the outermost track to the innermost track, and spot a new inbound car on the outermost track.
Here is e.g. a track plan fragment for a bigger industry with seven car spot locations, using only two turnouts (in this case Peco medium turnouts) in a corner of a 2x8 foot base plate:
How interesting a switching layout will be to switch is not so much dependent on the sheer quantity of turnouts on the layout.
If you look at model (and real) railroader Jack Hill's O scale New Castle Industrial Railroad layout, the original track plan is quite simple, but switching can be rather involved:
http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com/2010_10_01_archive.html
Anyways - as I wrote in an earlier post - if you want to try your track plan, by all means try it. It is your layout, and you call the shots.
I gotta get the kids and get 'em to school. Good luck with your layout!
SmileStein
P.S : minor issue, but you have several sections of track marked in red (which is XtrkCad's way of showing track that have too sharp curves or too steep inclines relative to the standards you have set).
now you are talking, for the first time you are telling how your tracks are used.
As Stein stated your plan is track heavy, and some tracks are pretty short. Basic problem is the length of your layout; you need space for a drill track, some switches and an arr & dep track.
I suggested a cassette, you did not respond to it at all. I hope you will do that now. As you can see the length of the run-around, the arr & dep track and all the yard tracks can be made much longer. Usually i ask a drawing of your room, so possibilities beyond the original footprint can be debated.
I drew the yard only in my first two plans. In #3 i added spurs, in #4 the engine terminal
I agree with Stein that the number of spots is very low in your design; inspired by Stein i added spurs in plan 3. But also to plan 1 these spurs can be added. In plan 3 you have about 15 car-spots.
If you study this plan 3, lots of tracks do double duty. The arr & dep track doubles as yard throat, the run-around track functions as lead for some spurs; so does the engine escape. The cassette functions as staging and as drill track. A separate main and the arr & dep track can be omitted this way; making the plan less track heavy.
And yes, i went beyond the 8x2 space, so did you and you are still doing.
I made a remark about a round-house and turntable, i guess you have bought and build them already, both are not necessary on an all diesel layout. But you did never gave precise information. And do you really need a 18" long roundhouse and a 14" turntable?
I like to know your view on the issues i presented to you; if you use them is a different question.
Thanks for replying, I'll keep reading your answers as english is not my native language, I need to re read everything a couple of times.
Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible! I appreciate the time you took for that draw, I will keep seeing it and learning ;)
fondo Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible!
Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible!
Impossible is a big word.
You cannot temporarily borrow some space for a removable section while you are running trains, and take off and put away that section when you are done with running trains? Say by blocking a little used doorway temporarily, by putting up a temporary set of table legs under the far side of an extension, by going around a corner or some such thing?
Have a look at this layout plan Byron Henderson drew up for a H0 scale railroad that had to fit into a space that most of us probably would have considered too small for a layout: http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/id36.html
Another suggestion mentioned in this thread, but not responded to by you yet - how about going to N scale? Would make that 2 x 8 foot long space the functional equivalent of a 3.5 foot wide by 14.5 foot space in H0 scale. Plenty of room for a switching design with adequate leads and an engine facility, while maintaining reasonably humane reach distances.
steinjr fondo: Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible! Impossible is a big word. You cannot temporarily borrow some space for a removable section while you are running trains, and take off and put away that section when you are done with running trains? Say by blocking a little used doorway temporarily, by putting up a temporary set of table legs under the far side of an extension, by going around a corner or some such thing? Have a look at this layout plan Byron Henderson drew up for a H0 scale railroad that had to fit into a space that most of us probably would have considered too small for a layout: http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/id36.html Another suggestion mentioned in this thread, but not responded to by you yet - how about going to N scale? Would make that 2 x 8 foot long space the functional equivalent of a 3.5 foot wide by 14.5 foot space in H0 scale. Plenty of room for a switching design with adequate leads and an engine facility, while maintaining reasonably humane reach distances. Smile, Stein
fondo: Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible!
Is it true, I shouldn't said impossible, but I've a wall in one side, and in the other I may stole 15". I think isn't much space but it could be an option. The L layout can not be as it doesn't fit, and moving to N scale neither because I just love HO scale besides I've many locomotives and cars.I don't want to look as I say no to all the options, I'm really limited by the space and material I can get!
I'll keep thinking and later I'll update with a few photos so you can see it!