Well, I am still somewhat confused by the thought of numerous turnouts over the section break, a 5 foot reach from your 3 x 3 foot operator cubbyhole at the far right front of the layout to the left end of the layout, and the contortions necessary to get things on and off the layout while it is set up in your little room.
Hopefully the door on the right side doesn't open into the room as well, trapping you in your operator hole.
Me, I think I would maybe have tried for something smaller and placed it on the wall in my living room instead.
But I wish you the best of luck.
Smile,Stein
Here are pictures of the the last layout I thought except it doesn't has the arrival/departure. Maybe I can keep this just for fun until I decide the final layout(maybe as I said in L shape) but the problem I've to consider also, is that here I can not get all the buildings and industries I want, but that wouldn't be the mayor problem.
The modules are placed in my living room just for comforty to displayed everthing, it's not where they will be. And the turntable and roundhouse needs the new wood to support them.
hi fondo,
i have to cry out loud..............make a scale drawing of your space. It might be your English, but you will never create space, unless you are knocking down walls or build an attachment.
No more talking...... if i learned something in life.......only a scale drawing with all obstacles clearly indicated is a solid first step.
Paul
Yes, it's not to scale, I did it quickly so you can see it. But the space were I sit it's very smal, almost I can't move, it's 1x1 meters.To the left it's a wall with a window and that's basically all the room.
I'm trying to get a space for a L shape layout. Dimensions could be 4x2 feet and 8x2 feet. Which would give much more space.
I've just saw the May 2011 preview issue video and it will arrive the swtiching layout for small places, and also industry with the correct operation. Which took me to think that maybe I can just play a time with this two modules, and so I win time to create the space for the L shape layout when the May issue arrives to my hands, what do you think?
fondo I keep reading, but I wanted to win time and post this As you can see I'm very restricted. The modules are vertical while not in use (photo for example) placed where I referenced in the upper image as "me sitted here". To use and join both modules I've just the "me sitted here" spaced to do it, and I stayed there. I have no way to go out through the door when the modules are "open". I'm trying to get more space, for a L shape layout, but I don't know if I can make it. Hope I explained myself!
I keep reading, but I wanted to win time and post this
As you can see I'm very restricted. The modules are vertical while not in use (photo for example) placed where I referenced in the upper image as "me sitted here". To use and join both modules I've just the "me sitted here" spaced to do it, and I stayed there. I have no way to go out through the door when the modules are "open". I'm trying to get more space, for a L shape layout, but I don't know if I can make it.
Hope I explained myself!
Hmm - your drawing obviously is not to scale, since a human would not fit into a space that seems to be between 6" and a foot deep.
What is off to the left of your layout? How about a drawing of the whole room, drawn to scale, so we understand what limitations you have to work within?
Where were you planning to have the section boundary between the two four foot long sections, where tracks will have to be cut so the sections can be disassembled? The 120 centimeter line seems to cross right through four-five turnouts?
Smile, Stein
fondo The L layout can not be as it doesn't fit
The L layout can not be as it doesn't fit
In what way?
I mean - if you have one end of your 8 foot length up against a wall, is there something that prevents you from e.g. having 5 foot long and 10" deep removable shelf down along that wall? Or alternatively - having an extension sticking 3-5 feet out into the room on a removable peninsula?
Say something conceptually like this:
20" radius curve might be tight if you plan to run diesels long enough to need a 90-foot turntable (most diesels were not turned on turntables, btw). Cars illustrated are 40-foot cars (i.e fairly short cars).
Anyways - the most important thing is to understand why you cannot extend the layout.
Or, for that matter, if you cannot have removable extensions, why you cannot have e.g. two layouts above each other - one at a convenient height while sitting, one at a convenient height when standing, one being an engine terminal, the other a switching area.
Smile, Stein, heading back to bed again after another round yelling into the big white phone - I hate the flu ......
steinjr fondo: Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible! Impossible is a big word. You cannot temporarily borrow some space for a removable section while you are running trains, and take off and put away that section when you are done with running trains? Say by blocking a little used doorway temporarily, by putting up a temporary set of table legs under the far side of an extension, by going around a corner or some such thing? Have a look at this layout plan Byron Henderson drew up for a H0 scale railroad that had to fit into a space that most of us probably would have considered too small for a layout: http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/id36.html Another suggestion mentioned in this thread, but not responded to by you yet - how about going to N scale? Would make that 2 x 8 foot long space the functional equivalent of a 3.5 foot wide by 14.5 foot space in H0 scale. Plenty of room for a switching design with adequate leads and an engine facility, while maintaining reasonably humane reach distances. Smile, Stein
fondo: Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible!
Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible!
Impossible is a big word.
You cannot temporarily borrow some space for a removable section while you are running trains, and take off and put away that section when you are done with running trains? Say by blocking a little used doorway temporarily, by putting up a temporary set of table legs under the far side of an extension, by going around a corner or some such thing?
Have a look at this layout plan Byron Henderson drew up for a H0 scale railroad that had to fit into a space that most of us probably would have considered too small for a layout: http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/id36.html
Another suggestion mentioned in this thread, but not responded to by you yet - how about going to N scale? Would make that 2 x 8 foot long space the functional equivalent of a 3.5 foot wide by 14.5 foot space in H0 scale. Plenty of room for a switching design with adequate leads and an engine facility, while maintaining reasonably humane reach distances.
Is it true, I shouldn't said impossible, but I've a wall in one side, and in the other I may stole 15". I think isn't much space but it could be an option. The L layout can not be as it doesn't fit, and moving to N scale neither because I just love HO scale besides I've many locomotives and cars.I don't want to look as I say no to all the options, I'm really limited by the space and material I can get!
I'll keep thinking and later I'll update with a few photos so you can see it!
fondo Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible!
Thanks for replying, I'll keep reading your answers as english is not my native language, I need to re read everything a couple of times.
Paul, I don't have more space that 8 feet, so the drill track it's imposible! I appreciate the time you took for that draw, I will keep seeing it and learning ;)
now you are talking, for the first time you are telling how your tracks are used.
As Stein stated your plan is track heavy, and some tracks are pretty short. Basic problem is the length of your layout; you need space for a drill track, some switches and an arr & dep track.
I suggested a cassette, you did not respond to it at all. I hope you will do that now. As you can see the length of the run-around, the arr & dep track and all the yard tracks can be made much longer. Usually i ask a drawing of your room, so possibilities beyond the original footprint can be debated.
I drew the yard only in my first two plans. In #3 i added spurs, in #4 the engine terminal
I agree with Stein that the number of spots is very low in your design; inspired by Stein i added spurs in plan 3. But also to plan 1 these spurs can be added. In plan 3 you have about 15 car-spots.
If you study this plan 3, lots of tracks do double duty. The arr & dep track doubles as yard throat, the run-around track functions as lead for some spurs; so does the engine escape. The cassette functions as staging and as drill track. A separate main and the arr & dep track can be omitted this way; making the plan less track heavy.
And yes, i went beyond the 8x2 space, so did you and you are still doing.
I made a remark about a round-house and turntable, i guess you have bought and build them already, both are not necessary on an all diesel layout. But you did never gave precise information. And do you really need a 18" long roundhouse and a 14" turntable?
I like to know your view on the issues i presented to you; if you use them is a different question.
Smile
fondo Hi all, here I put another option I thought. The main change is the arrival/departure track much more longer, easy access to the industry track next to the mainline.What I would like to know, if I can put a scale track in the upper track of yard track #1? Waiting your opinions? Thanks for reading (:
Hi all, here I put another option I thought. The main change is the arrival/departure track much more longer, easy access to the industry track next to the mainline.What I would like to know, if I can put a scale track in the upper track of yard track #1?
Waiting your opinions? Thanks for reading (:
The picture below is from a very track heavy part of my layout - it has 8 tracks from wall to aisle in the foreground, 25" deep benchwork - the section you see is about 8 feet long to the back wall - as you can observe, there is not a lot of space in between the tracks.
Here is a FREMO module from a meet I went to last weekend - 4 tracks wide in 50 centimeters (19.5") of depth - with room for scenery on both sides of the tracks:
Here is a portable dense track switching layout I've just started on as a side project - 8 feet long, 12" deep, made in two 4 foot sections:
Now, looking at your last plan above, on the right side you have 7 tracks from the wall to above the engine house, then an engine house. On the left side of your plan you have the equivalent of six tracks, and then a turntable between that and the edge. On a 24" deep shelf.
This is track heavy. But for having that much track, your number of industry spots are still very limited, since you are trying to do three different things in a small layout : industries, a yard and an engine terminal, each of which in real life are huge things.
I still think you are trying to squeeze in way too much track. It is possibly marginally doable to fit in all that track on a layout that size, but I don't know if it is wise.
I would suggest going from H0 scale to N scale (which in effect in 8 feet of length gives you the same amount of space as you would have had in 14 feet of length in H0 scale).
Or researching the concept of "sure spots" - where each industry have a number of spots on the same track - say a food warehouse having three doors labeled "A", "B" and "C", with switching instructions saying e.g. "Frozen goods must be spotted at dock A, beverages at dock B and everything else delivered to dock C", making it necessary to sort the cars that go into the track in the right order and spot each car independently (not coupled together) so they match up precisely with the doors.
Having some things unloaded from two tracks in front of a building, where the people in the building unloading the car on the track closest to the building first, and then using a metal plate to bridge between that car and the car beyond it on the second track.
Now, when you pull the car on the track closest to the building, you will have to add in a little time to coordinate with the people at the plant, then pull the car on the track closest to the building, re-spot the partially unloaded car on the outermost track to the innermost track, and spot a new inbound car on the outermost track.
Here is e.g. a track plan fragment for a bigger industry with seven car spot locations, using only two turnouts (in this case Peco medium turnouts) in a corner of a 2x8 foot base plate:
How interesting a switching layout will be to switch is not so much dependent on the sheer quantity of turnouts on the layout.
If you look at model (and real) railroader Jack Hill's O scale New Castle Industrial Railroad layout, the original track plan is quite simple, but switching can be rather involved:
http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com/2010_10_01_archive.html
Anyways - as I wrote in an earlier post - if you want to try your track plan, by all means try it. It is your layout, and you call the shots.
I gotta get the kids and get 'em to school. Good luck with your layout!
SmileStein
P.S : minor issue, but you have several sections of track marked in red (which is XtrkCad's way of showing track that have too sharp curves or too steep inclines relative to the standards you have set).
Paul what does it mean reveiling? Also I don't understand why you ask if the turntable is a circle?And yes, the turntable is 90' for diesels.
hi,
the YouTube show was reveiling. We seem to be unable to communicate.
But in general, you have very much track, for just 2 industries, that each hold two 40-ft long cars. Using a turn-table (circle?) for diesels?
Wish you the best
I guess I'm not seeing what the problem is.
On a small layout, there are bound to be switching "inconveniences". They are part of the fun and challenge. The challenge in planning is not to let these inconveniences get out of hand to the point where the layout becomes a unrealistic switching puzzle instead of a challenge.
At least those are my thoughts.
Fred W
Here is a video to explain my layout idea better. The train with the SD70M and the four cars is the mainline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2vigE2LiPs
What do you think?At the end, I forgot to put in the correct place for loading the empty cars which came with the SD70M
I have not used double slip switches in a design. Nor do I use the train running feature - although I know both train running and double slip switches exist within the program. So I can't tell you much about how to do it. Best place for help is the XtrkCad Yahoo Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XTrkCad/).
My use of layout drawing programs is limited to fit checks and taking measurements of things like spur lengths. Even on my small layouts, the plan seldom stays intact between final version in software and reality on the layout. So my measurements don't always mean a whole lot.
Most of my assessment of a plan is done mentally from a plan - I know I want a spur to hold x number of cars. Is it long enough to do so? Do my intended structures fit along the spur? I then mentally move a train over the layout to simulate operations. Is the runaround track long enough? Is the tail track to a switchback or switchback spur long enough for engine plus desired number of cars? Would there normally be something blocking the tail track? Is my switching lead for spurs or yard tracks long enough?
Since I'm talking a single operator layout, I don't worry about fouling the main during switching operations. If I should ever have more than one operator, they can each switch distinctly different areas, and then arrange with each other to get to a different area. I'm into laid back, short line operations.
I guess I could benefit a little from "train running" on a layout plan, but I'd rather be building physically than playing in virtual space.
my thoughts, your choices
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
fwright fondo: Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this? XtrkCad will allow you to "run" trains on connected track in a track plan. XtrkCad is an open source project that is a free download. It has extensive track (and structure) libraries that are continually updated by volunteers. The downside is a fairly steep learning curve compared to Atlas RTS. XtrkCad is pretty difficult to get without doing the tutorials once. Fred W
fondo: Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this?
Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this?
XtrkCad will allow you to "run" trains on connected track in a track plan. XtrkCad is an open source project that is a free download. It has extensive track (and structure) libraries that are continually updated by volunteers. The downside is a fairly steep learning curve compared to Atlas RTS. XtrkCad is pretty difficult to get without doing the tutorials once.
Thanks Fred, I download and start using XtrkCa, the problem I've is how to made the two double slip I need, any tutorial on this?
I believe that Trainplayer can import Atlas track plans. You can get a 30 day free trial of it.
Make sure you use cars of the proper length when playing with it.
-Ed
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle
fondo Actually I'm using the Atlas software, and it doesn't have to simulate the train moves, is there any free software for this?
None that I know of. I use 3rd Planit.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
Hi Fondo,
What I would suggest is that if your track software will let you run trains, try running trains on your layout to get a feel of how it works or does not work. Then change the tracks around to improve your layout.
Paulus Jas hi fondo, the lower one is yours.............the upper one is mine. I only left some S-curves out Smile Paul
the lower one is yours.............the upper one is mine. I only left some S-curves out
Paul, thanks for the clarification. What I note in the first layout, is that the yard lead needs an extra space beside the 8 feet? Also, in my layout, the straight track next to the circle would be the main line. So there is no arrival track especific, but I can use the main to take the cars with the switcher, and the locomotive goes to the service section. What do you think about this?
Paul, sorry but I don't understand the image, that layout do you recommend me? or it's mine?
hi fondo
by being very specific about the moves your train will have to make.
I am not sure which track is your arrival track, so i tried to draw your plan..................
Some remarks are made in the drawing, your most important drill tracks are very short.
The cassette is performing miracles, with less tracks, a more fluent traffic
steinjr I had another look at your plan, and see tracks seemingly extremely close together (you want minimum 2" track center to track center for parallel straight tracks), very sharp curves, some of them S-curves that will derail pretty much any car you try to push through them, and very short leads, which will create a world of frustrations trying to move 4-5 cars in and four-five vars out, one car at a time. I think you are asking for frustrations here. But by all means - feel free to try it. If you can make it work, kudos to you. If not, you still will have learned something - and that's always worth doing too. Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you. Smile, Stein, out
I had another look at your plan, and see tracks seemingly extremely close together (you want minimum 2" track center to track center for parallel straight tracks), very sharp curves, some of them S-curves that will derail pretty much any car you try to push through them, and very short leads, which will create a world of frustrations trying to move 4-5 cars in and four-five vars out, one car at a time.
I think you are asking for frustrations here. But by all means - feel free to try it.
If you can make it work, kudos to you.
If not, you still will have learned something - and that's always worth doing too.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you.
Smile, Stein, out
I didn't cut any turnout so the space between tracks it's ok(tested). I will give a try to this layout, but how do I know if it's operational? which tests can I make?