OK, as you may know from my previous posts, I'm working on my first section of my first layout and I have track down on cork roadbed and the trains will run on the track, so small victory. Now, I'm getting ready to start scenery, in particular laying ground cover and ballasting the track. I have this fear that it will end up looking awful or that it will be harder than you all make it sound. :)
For those who remember their first layout, how big of a learning curve did you run into when you tried to take your layout from track, cork, and plywood to something more? I guess my biggest fear is that it seems like it will be very hard to undo anything that ends up looking lousy. Since it's all glued down, etc. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid. :)
Thanks for listening,
Mike
Mike, "welcome to the club"!
My first real layout was a sizeable Lionel in the mid '50s, and the current one (under construction) is a two level HO - with several between them.
Putting in scenery has always been kind of hit and miss for me. Taking that first step is often hard because I didn't want to screw it up. But the thing is, most all the time it worked out well. And the few times it didn't, as soon as I fully realized I wouldn't be happy with it - boom, out it went!
Even with the layout I'm building today, there is still some procrastination and tentitivity (spell?) to start new areas of scenery. I - like you I am sure - want to do it right the first time.
My point is, jump into it, don't rush, and don't try to do too much at a time. It will work out fine - or in any case - give you valuable experience. By the way, leave the ballast for last!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Building a nice layout requires a lot of different talents, which are not always evenly distributed. A friend of mine is an expert when it comes to wiring, but shuns away from making scenery. I have a fairly good hand at scenicking my layout, but hate wiring. Whenever I grab a soldering iron, I end up with a lot of burns
As scenery is the most obvious "aspect" of our layouts, any mistake is readily visible, but that should not stop you from tackling the issue. Mistakes can easily be corrected, and each time you learn a little more on how to improve it.
If you are afraid to "foul up" your layout, why don´t you hone your skills on a little diorama - the best way of trying different techniques.
Don't worry about it, but learn from your mistakes as you go. Have been in HO since 1959, have made my share of dumb scenery mistakes, but it is much easier (in my opinion) to tear it out and do it over (better) than rewiring a layout.
Just remember with scenery, most of nature is pretty plain, don't try to do Mt. Rushmore and the Grand Canyon, instead keep it simple and believeable. Scenery, once you have a solid base, can be improved on much easier than most tasks in the hobby.
Bob
Sorry, but your diagnosis is "PERFECTLY NORMAL." If you don't feel confident, you can either do a diorama, as mentioned above or just start at a place on the layout away from tracks and other elements that could be adversly effected. Give it a try and see how it goes. As was said, we all have our nitch, some build better trees others are a whiz at rocks others buildings, most seem to find ballasting a drag. I'm not quite ready to start that phase yet, so I still have that to determin.
Even many experienced, talanted modelers tear out sections of their layouts to improve them, though many of would give an arm and a leg to have our layouts look that good. Making changes and improvements is a normal part of the process. A layout is never done is often mentioned.
What I plan to do is get the basic track layout down, so I can run trains. Then I will start the scenery at some given point. I haven't decided yet whether I will just keep adding to that first area or go to another area to do some different type of scenery. The second option would give me a chance to try different things more frequently, but I wouldn't have continuous scenery. I do expect that before I am done with the basic scenery, my skills will have improved so that I will be ready to go back and improve the area(s) where I started.
I'd say grab some scenic materials, glue and go for it. Just make sure you protect your track and TURNOUTS so that you do not have to do a major reclaim job on them.
Have fun,
One thing just jumps to my mind - we hardly plan the scenery when preparing the track plan. One of the most common mistakes is to put too much track on the layout and to squeeze the Grand Canon in between.
I always prepare my track plans with the scenery I want to have in mind.
If you don't like how something came out it's no big deal. Just tear it out and try again.
... unless, of course, you are a brain surgeon.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Yup, fear is normal. Call it "apprehension" if that sounds better.
I started in a corner of my layout. I was pretty happy with it. Over the next 3 or 4 years, I worked all the way over to the other edge of my layout. I could see the work improving with practice, sort of like looking at the fossil record by digging down into the earth.
One nice thing about scenery is that plaster cloth, turf, ground foam and paint are all pretty cheap. If you don't like it, rip it out and try again. We've all done that, and by the second or third try we usually get it right.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
If you make a mistake, take a look at the real world, nothing is picture perfect and odds are no one will notice the mistake. Or just let it go and come back in a day or two and wonder what you were worried about. For example I made a mountain and tunnel and when I went to paint and ground cover it I thought I ruined it but I pressed on knowing that if it still looks bad I can redo it, after all it was just plaster and paper. When I was done I was still upset about the out come but I left and went to bed.. the next day, it looked fine, all the little things I felt I screwed up on the night before I did not see when i went back the next day as i was looking at the big picture now.
Like said don't worry, mistakes can be made and easily corrected. I have made bad mistakes and good mistakes. The bad a tear out and redo or just hide really well. The good mistakes are when I do something unintentionally that actually turns out well. I have learned many techniques accidentally.
Getting a book by Dave Frary is a good start to helping you along but don't be afraid to try your own ideas. That's what this hobby is all about. Somethings turn out good, others bad.
One key thing is don't make things to uniform or matching, as that isn't reality. One thing I notice where this is most evident is grass. I mix and match my static and foam grasses and never lay the same color patterns anywhere. I make things close but never exact. It adds to the realism as most grassy areas in the real world vary quite a bit. Even neighbors yard grass can look drastically different.
I also use a mix of trees. Some are bought premade, some are super trees, some super sage, some made from scratch, some just whatever. I also don't subscribe to perfect trees, after all they don't exist. I have some super trees I broke when installing them so they are lopsided, however it looks perfect for a tree that was struck by lightning.
Most important part is to have fun and enjoy what you are doing. If a certain task becomes to daunting leave it alone and come back to it later.
I agree with the rest regarding going easy, going small, and not being too critical. Some good things about scenery is that ground foam and bushes or clump foliage cover anything. Adding more ground foam to an area that you didn't like just adds more texture and maybe more contour. I have some nice rolling hills where it used to be somewhat flat. Clump foliage and bushes you can just pull out and replant.
And a do over doesn't have to be a complete rip out and toss. Using white glue and other water soluable adhesives means the water spritz bottle is your friend. By resoaking an area, you can have a soft do over.
Using a smaller ballast size (medium or fine or a mix of both) is easier to spread evenly than large sizes.
I have had trains running for several years and add scenery a bit at a time.
Remember rule #1 - Have fun!
Emman
mike_brubaker ...I have this fear that it will end up looking awful or that it will be harder than you all make it sound. :) For those who remember their first layout, how big of a learning curve did you run into when you tried to take your layout from track, cork, and plywood to something more?...
...I have this fear that it will end up looking awful or that it will be harder than you all make it sound. :)
For those who remember their first layout, how big of a learning curve did you run into when you tried to take your layout from track, cork, and plywood to something more?...
Hi Mike:
So your first attempt looks awful, so what? This is a HOBBY, not a competition. Just try again. _Everybody's_ a beginner at some point. It takes a while to gain confidence, to become familiar with the materials, and what looks good.
My advice to you is to relax, buy a book or two, but above all, to go outside and look around carefully, and carry a camera with you when you do so. What you want to avoid is imitating the work of other modelers. Everybody's idea of what's "realistic" varies. Nature and the prototype can't be argued with. Be guided by them & you can't go wrong.
I've been doing this stuff for over 45 years, and I still find ways to do things better, make it look more "realistic," etc.
Regards,
-Ed K
Five out of four people have trouble with fractions. -AnonymousThree may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. -Benjamin Franklin "You don't have to be Jeeves to love butlers, but it helps." (Followers of Levi's Real Jewish Rye will get this one) -Ed K "A potted watch never boils." -Ed Kowal If it's not fun, why do it ? -Ben & Jerry
Learn as you go, and don't marry anything you see. Do a small length of ballast and glue it. Spread some ground foam around it without gluing it in place. How does it look? Ballast could be leveled a bit more? Too much of it showing above the ties? Inner rail webbing has too many little pieces of grit stuck up against them? The shoulders of the ballast are too uneven? Every one of these, if you notice them, is something you can do better by trying something else. Learn as you go. At some point, you will have to wet and soften the first 10" of learning, scrape it up, and then re-lay fresh ballast the way you know it should be done. If you meet the challenge of making it seamless with the improved lengths, you will be done.
I like the idea of a diorama. Even one square foot on a piece of junk 1/4" plywood can serve as a great learning surface. Try stacked foam. Try aluminum window screen and strips of casting plaster cloth overlaid. Or mix up a goop, or try spackle. I'm pretty sure you'll find that they all have their purposes and qualities, and that you are pretty good with any of them with enough patience and practice.
Go slow. Speed comes with competence. Build competence and versatility, but not in a single afternoon.
Crandell
Remember, if you don't like how your scenery looks, rip it out! It's not that hard. Most likely, your scenery will look fine at first, and then as your skills progress, you'll find that you could have done this better or that differently. And then, by all means change those things.
Unlike real geography, which is there for the ages, model scenery is like the Las Vegas Strip. If you suddenly decide that the mesas of the desert Southwest should give way to the soft, rolling hills of New England - BOOM, and you have a slightly dirty slate.
Our society as a whole suffers from a pervasive idea that WE SHOULD NEVER FAIL. Horsefeathers! Nobody's first effort at ANYTHING was perfect. Most weren't particularly good. My first scenery efforts were a dismal failure - but they were also a learning tool. I'm still no threat to (insert name of master scenery builder of choice,) but my wife didn't giggle when she saw my most recent work.
Rather than fearful anticipation, try some study - our hosts sell a plethora of scenery books - followed by a little action. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised. If, more likely, you don't find your first cut inspiring, clean it off and try something else. Above all, remember that nobody will be grading your work (except the cat in YOUR hat, of course) and initial lack of success won't flunk you out of Model Railroad U.
Some indefinite time in the future, when you charge into a model of Zion Canyon with the confidence of experience, you'll look back on the present and wonder what you were apprehensive about.
Chuck (Modeling the cedar-forested mountains of Central Japan in September, 1964)
Whether afraid of making mistakes is "normal" or not, If you do "fail" you can always start over if you don't like what you did or how it came out.
I am not sure there are any real mistakes, just dislikes of what you have created...most likely because it doesn't look like a picture in a mag. on the box cover, on someone else's layout or photos of someone's layout, or postings here on the forum.
Some guys are more creative and detail oriented than others. some go for representationalism of what they want to portray.
Even "professional" Movie FX guys know what to super detail, what to detail, what to leave out and what to only create as a "representation" of what they want to show for a background of a movie or TV show,as the eye can be fooled or fill in details.
Many of us never "finish" a layout...cuz we are afraid it won't be "perfect". I ask: "perfect" to whom?
TO answer your question, of course there is a learning curve on your way in building the scenery for your layout...each time you try a new proceedure you learn something. One of the joys of mags like MRR and this forum is that you can see what others have done, often with step by step instructions so you don't have to learn "quite so hard" the hard way!
My father recent got into playing with my and my brother's old trains. I dug out a box of stuff I had packed up of O guage train stuff. I said "boy what a crappy job I did on some of this" He said" you have to remember what your abilities were at the time, and the materials and tools you had to work with to create what you did." I haven't forgotten that and apply it to everything I do now. Perhaps that phrase can help you too.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Like you, I was very apprehensive about starting scenery on my first layout. But I wanted to look at more than some plywood and Homasote and track. And the track wasn't even nearly finished.
My first step was to break out the saber saw and cookie cutter the track and roadbed. I left intact the areas where I planned track but hadn't laid it yet. Vacuumed up the sawdust and Homasote dust and said, "this wasn't so bad after all". I now had open space where scenery was to go.
I had read an article in a 1960s Model Railroader about using cut up grocery bag paper and masking tape to install some temporary scenery before committing to plaster. I tried that, and that really helped spur my refinement of the scenic plan for the layout. I have seen others put in kit boxes or cardboard cutouts as stand-ins for structures, and that also helps with refining the scenery ideas before committing. I said, "this wasn't so bad after all. I'm liking this layout better."
After monkeying around with the paper bag paper and tape for a few weeks, I bought some window screen. The first batch of screen was aluminum. Use the fiberglass screen instead. The wire is hard on the saw blades and bits when you decide you goofed and want to take it out. I stapled the screen wire to the cookie cutter roadbed and shaped to my heart's content. I mixed up Plaster of Paris with some food coloring in it to make it brown instead of white, and used paper towels dipped in PoP laid over the screen. I was quite happy with the results, except for one area. I got out the saber saw, cut out the offending section, and put in new screen and plaster to my liking. I said, "this wasn't so bad after all. In fact, I declare it to be good."
Just like other most other aspects of model railroading, I found out that scenery isn't all that hard. It mostly takes a willingness to keep trying until I satisfy myself. Since I have always built small layouts due to frequent moves, some rework is just not a big deal.
wade in and enjoy
Fred W
Mike,
I was the same way. I just starred at my layout totally afraid of where to start. So I figured I would practice a little and make a diorama.
I went to Home Depot and purchased a 2'x4' piece of thin particle board and then glued the same size foam board on top (some sort of foam board I found in the isulation isle). I laid down 3 separate pieces of cork roadbed and then glued 3' pieces of flex track to that. I went to my LHS and picked out whatever scenery looked appealing and interesting to me. Although I knew I was going to do the southwest desert theme, I wanted to try some trees and foilage stuff too.
Then I began to hone in all the skills needed for the real thing. I soldered some bus wire to the track to make it functional (and is now my test track). Then practiced 3 different techniques of ballasting and colors. You get the picture. All in all this was a great way to practice because there was not the pressure of screwing up the real deal. Good luck with everything, and as you can see, there is a lot of help and support here on the forum.
Shawn.
I think it's normal to be apprehensive when doing something new. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Take the Nike approach and "Just Do It".
Even with glue, it's pretty easy to remove something and do it over, or to touch up something and make it better. I have a funny spot on my layout. I made a classic New England cemetery, complete with all kinds of headstones and a stone wall. I wasn't terribly happy with it, but it's the first thing visitors comment on: "Wow, cool cemetery! How did you make it?" So i keep telling myself I'm my own worst critic, and it's actually grown on me over the years.
That said, I did cut my teeth on dioramas. I built one for "Take a Model Train to Work Day" a number of years ago ,and one holiday scene for under the tree. I had a blast making them, and they were real confidence builders -- especially the nice comments from my colleagues in the office.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Well, I became MMR but I'm still not so good with landscaping. I have an idea and the model looks very different.
That's the good point with scenery, it's easy to go over it a second or third ... time.
Just start!
Here're pictures following the progress or here
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
I also battle chronic pre-scenery anxiety (the engineering training in me bleeding through, I suppose - prepare everything ahead, leave nothing unplanned or unenvisioned, and end up with analysis paralysis, doing nothing). Here's what I've found:
Pick a small area and just do something. Build a little hill, add some gound cover, etc. Get your feet wet. When you're done, you'll look at it and think, "That's really cool!" You'll then be emboldened to work another area, trying new things, improving on stuff that you found didn't work. Then you'll look at it and think, "Wow, that's really cool!" That cycle will repeat itself multiple times over, until you reach the point where you look back at those first few efforts and think, "Man, that's hideous! How could I have ever thought that was any good?" And you'll make it better. And that cycle will repeat itself until you find that you've got yourself a pretty darned nice looking layout.
But none of that will happen if you don't first just wade in.
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
I think that you will find that scenery is not as difficult as you may think. Even if you create something that you don't like, you can always clean up the area and start again. You will not believe what a difference even a small amount of scenery will make to your railroad. Start with a small area, such as an industrial siding. Place the building or a mock up of the building around the spur. When you find a location that you like, put down some basic elements. Such as, paint the plywood or foam an earth color with acrylic paint. Then try a variety of dirt, ground foam, and ballast. Do not forget to have a road for traffic to get in and out of the area. If you are feeling somewhat afraid, use 1 inch foam board and try the same techniques. You can carve the foam board into shapes or stack them (glue together) and then shape them. The last element should probably be the track ballast. As long as you do not "glue" the scenery materials in place with scenic cement or dilute Elmers glue, you can always vacuum up the area and start again. Try it, you will love it!!
Craig North Carolina
I am one of those guys that is constantly trying "new" things when it comes to scenery. If I read an article on a technique that is new to me...I try it. If it looks good...I keep it. I have ripped entire mountains out minutes after finishing it cause I thought it looked bad. Your layout is "your" world and no one elses. If you like it...that's all that matters. Remember...there is a wealth of info out there...most of it is from forum users on here that have all "been there" when it comes to scenery jitters....Enjoy the hobby!!
A true friend will not bail you out of jail...he will be sitting next to you saying "that was friggin awesome dude!" Tim...Modeling the NYC...is there any other?
Stick to the almost foolproof ways of doing scenery if you don't like taking chances. Start with foam (easy to shape with a hot wire and even if you really screw up you can dig out a piece and put in another in as small or large a space as you messed up. Next cover in plaster cloth (schoolkids work with this stuff). Next is dirt, go with the new zip texturing, they have exact instructions at MRH online mag. Almost foolproof because you can build up in layers. Next is plants, use scenic cement from Woodland Scenics to secure, again unless you spill the bottle it is pretty foolproof. Next trees, you can start with the premades but making your own is real easy and if the base is foam you just stick them in. Last is ballast, spread it on and work it till you like it. Then set it with Scenic Cement using a pipette or eye dropper (this stuff is pre-mixed so the only way you can mess up is leave the cap off). Once you have built up your confidence you will be able to start experimenting with your own formulas for things.
How do you know that you are making a SCENERY mistake?
What makes you feel that it is wrong?
I too feel this way at times - and I have been building layouts for over 55 years!
What I have found is that I am compairing others work against my layout!
My layout is not and never will be like any other layout!
And usually - when I am compairing - I am using a picture and the actual 3D item (my layout)
They ain't the same!
Do some scenery and then - take a picture of it!
Now compair - picture to picture
You won't believe the difference when looking at your work (in a picture) and the other layout picture - and how good your scenery really is.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Another thing to remember when approaching a scenery project is that there is seldom a "best" approach or product.
Try something one way and see if you like the results. Was it hard to do? If so, maybe another method will be easier for you. Sometimes, it pays to find a commercial product instead of a home-made solution.
A case in point: my layout has a park with some steps in it. After serveral failed attempts to make them out of strip wood (I kept having problems with irregular tread size), I spent $5 on a pack of styrene steps. Voila! It took all of 10 minutes and little bit of Sculptamold to repair the damage to the surrounding scenery caused by ripping out my failed attempts.
Want to start a huge debate? Ask whether diluted white glue or diluted matte medium is a better adhesive for scenery materials (no, folks, I'm not inviting that debate here). Personally, I'd say each has advantages and disadvantages, but neither is better.
Mike:
One of the wonderful things about scenery is that it's one of the VERY few things on your MR that doesn't have to be "To Scale". And it's also very easy to either rip out your first attempt--assuming you don't like it--or actually continue adding more and 'camoflauging' your initial attempt.
My Yuba River Sub has been operating for the past eight years, and I'm ALWAYS going back and 'adjusting' the scenery. And yes, I've even torn out a couple of sections and rebuilt them when I realized that 'additions' STILL wouldn't cover up the initial mistake I made while putting in my 'concept.'
Scenery is extremely forgiving. I don't think there's a 'right' or a 'wrong' way to go about it. Study various techniques, get some MR book on scenery construction--there are at LEAST a dozen ways to go about laying in basic scenery, and all of them work. God knows I'VE used enough of them, LOL!
If it helps, right now I'm going back over a very large section of scenery that I laid in originally eight years ago. I'm adding better rock-work. And better trees and bushes and coverage. It's a continuing process, and one that I enjoy a lot.
So don't panic. Just start DOING it. Chances are that it will turn out better than you think, and it can always be improved as you learn.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I can truthfully report, having been building and rebuilding the same layout since sometime in the early 1960's, that my modeling became much more satisfying when I adopted a chisel asmy favored tool. As I learn more and more, I go back to previous efforts and revise them. One thing that could make some of these tasks a bit less intimidating would be to set aside a small area of your workbench as a test bed, or practice area for learning techniques, check colors of materials , etc. before beginning work on the layout itself.
Remember that modeling is not a race with only one winner and many losers, so take your time and let your confidence grow. Recall also, in moments that might invite criticism, that this is your railroad, your empire, your place of delight in this world, and if you choose to banish negative thoughts and comments from the room you are well within your rightful position as president/chief janitor!
Thanks for all the feedback, you guys! I did start laying ground cover and it's turning out pretty well. Now, here's a question, I'm modeling a freight yard with an large industrial complex along the backdrop. I'm using Woodland Scenics course turf(earth color) for the ground between the tracks in the freight yard. But, for where the factory buildings will be, I don't know if I should switch to a different color ground turf or just use the same? There's so many options and products out there, that it's hard to determine what would look right. :) But, bottom line, the ground cover is going down easily and turning out pretty good.