As you may have seen, thinking about a new bench. I don't want to go the 2 X 4 way again!
I was looking on Lowe's website and looking at Pine Furring Strip's. 1 x 2 X 8 are 92 cents each, and 1 X 3 X 8 are $1.43 each. If I use them to make the framing, with 16 inch centers and 1/2 plywood for the top, do you think they would work well? I would use 2 X 4 for the legs.
Thanks for the coming answers.
Ken
I hate Rust
Ken, I wouldn't recommend furring strip for something that requires stability. Think of it this way, furring strip material is wood that cannot be used for anything else , having just missed being woodchips. The graining is typically not great and there usually are knots, both open and closed. This adds up to instability over time, and that can have devistating effects on your grades. You would be better off getting no1 pine, especially for any long pieces. It will give you a good base to work from and is going to be much more inexpensive than having to start over because the tracks start looking more like a rollercoaster.
Ken,
My "under construction" layout and the previous one used a plethora of 2x2 legs, and 1x2, 1x4, and 1x6 for lateral supports. The result was solid as a rock - although I have been accused of overkill.
One thing that worked especially well was taking some decent 1x4s and ripping them down the center. This gives you something a tad wider than a 1x2, and IMHO, significantly stronger.
Oh, if you can do this, get two battery drills (I have 2 12v DeWalts) and use one for pilot holes and the other for screwing. And, I only use wide thread deck screws - and the work like a charm.
By the way, I use 2x2 legs as my layout is in a second floor room and I wanted to cut down on weight. If it were in a basement or garage, I would use 2x4s.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Look at the wood in the store. Lowes appears to use different species for their low end. Sometimes its a mess, sometimes not. My current layout uses 1x4s that have small tight knots and worked well - fairly smooth. I bought some 2 years earlier for trim on a shed that was a b**** to work with - constant splitting at the ends, so rough I needed leather gloves to handle it. It was so bad that I used select pine for the layout at that time even though it cost more.
If you are spanning 8 ft., I would use 1x4's not 1x3's. The nominal 3 inches is usually 2 1/2 sometimes 2 1/4 which I think is not enough for long spans. The 1x2's should work for the short cross pieces (I would use 1x3's) just make sure there are no large knots. I use 1x2's for diagonal supports.
While 2x4's will work for legs I prefer to use 2 1x4's for each leg joined together in an L shape.
1/2 inch plywood is what I use for the top and it works well for me.
Be very choosey picking your boards, they can be warped, cupped, or twisted. It's not uncommon on a given day for all of them to be unusable, especially during a sale. If that's the case, try another store or wait a couple of weeks for a new shipment. Or buy select pine ( be choosey there as well).
Enjoy
Paul
If you have access to a table saw, Ken, you could find 10' lengths of clear spruce or pine 1X4 and rip some of the 1X4's to create 10' lengths of 1X2. They will be sufficient for legs if you brace them with sway braces or if you use a triangular gusset. Two by fours are heavy overkill in my opinion. All my benchwork is 1X4 with some of it 1X2. Very solid.
Crandell
I use 1x4's and 1x3's for my benchwork. I cheat and pay more for the precut higher quality ones, mainly because I have no way to transport 10 foot pieces of wood, but it's solid and they generally are straighter. My legs I make by forming an L girder type thing with a 1x3 and a 1x2, a small chunk of 2x2 at the bottom provides a place to screw in the leg leveler. I use 1x2 for the cross braces. There's plenty of pictures of the whle thing in various stages on my web site.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Ken
Bear in mind that a 1x2 is actually 3/4"x1-1/2". For secondary members even that small size is adequate from a strength standpoint, though I wouldn't recommend them for the primary support members. A bigger concern in my opinion would be that small section's propensity to split from a screw being installed too close to the end.
Generally speaking, most of the benchwork construction that people insist is essentially vital to good benchwork is obscene overkill. If you don't plan on moving your layout, then the need for lightweight benchwork is utterly irrelevant. Using 3/4" cabinet-grade plywood is wasteful both of money and material. Use what's cheap and what you feel comfortable using, and it will in all likelihood work fine for your layout's needs.
I'd be glad to offer my engineer's perspective to any benchwork plan you're considering.
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Since the benchwork is the foundation of your layout, everything you build on top of it will be a direct reflection of what is under it. I tried using some of the cheap lumber at Lowes and Home Depot and have regretted it ever since. My layout is 18' x 22' and is supported entirely on 2x2 legs with L girders running horizontally (1x4 with 1x2 glued together). I used the straightest and best I could afford for this part of the construction. My plywood is mostly 1/2" AC grade because it is smoother and flatter than the cheaper stuff. I used some 1/2" underlay in some places but had to pay for it later when the track was more like a roller coaster. I had to use a leveling compound in one part of my yard because it was so wavy. If I had to do it over I would have used 3/4" plywood ripped to the board widths I needed and have very straight benchwork. I would highly recommend using the best you can afford when it comes to lumber.
Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I have eschewed 1x boards completely. I use 3/4 AC plywood, ripped to the needed width, exclusively now. It's a little more work machining the plywood, but the results are straight, flat, and square.
I'm waiting for Chuck to pop up and say you need to use steel studs.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Ken.
Try some independent stores. Up here in the Great White North the wood at the big box stores is often crap.The independent store I go to often sends the wood back if it is not up to par. He also gives me a real price break because it's for a MRR. They can't do that at the big box store.
I made just about everything out of 1" x 4" H/T Fir. I went and bought a 100 x 10' lengths, threw them in the truck and used them for everything. A few good saws in the workshop make short work of making custom fit bits. My 6' x 18' grid bench is made with 1" x 4" Fir with Lap Joints. Strong as can be.
Also buying bulk screws at the independent store, where you scoop them out and weigh them and then pay for them. The wife bought me a box of 500 Pre - packaged deck screws at Home Depot for $25.00 at the independent store, the second scoop your own larger batch was only $7.00. And they were the same brand. Go figure.
One more thing if warping is a problem, putting two pieces of wood together to make one such as two 1" x 4"s to make a 2" x 4". They help keep each other in check. Good luck.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I also prefer to use plywood ripped to desired width. I use 1/2" hardwood plywood that uses seven plies instead of the usual five. Both sides have a smooth finished surface and every piece is very stable laterally. If added rigidity is needed in all planes, I simply glue two strips together into an angle. My current layout (in progress) is mainly long spans and 24 inch deep cantilevers forming an open grid "S" shape. Using nothing but 1/2" plywood and gluing all joints, the layout benchwork is lightweight, uniform and surprisingly strong. Yes, even the cantilevered sections will support my full 200 pound weight.
Hornblower
First question, what are Furring Strips? If they are straight, few knot holes is there any other reason they would not work?
Second, I have thought of using 1/2 to 3/4 inch plywood. Is there any downside to using them? Will they split when I use screws on the end? I would predrill holes first.
Third, what is a lap joint?
Anyone have any pictures they care to share?
I m having to do this on the cheap as far as lumber is concern. I am in between jobs right now. But, I finally have the time to work on a new layout.
I would not take a chance on the furring. Even if you can select pieces that are relatively knot free you will have to predrill every screw hole close to the ends or the wood will likely split. I had been saving some 1 x 4 s for benchwork that were really rough. I went to put one into another project and very quickly realized that the stuff was garbage. Even where I drilled the wood still split if I over torqued the deck screws. So, into the fireplace with it! Higher quality bench work may be unneccessary in the opinion of some, but there is one thing they can't argue with - it's safe!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
IIRC, furring strips are those pieces of wood that go crosswise of the good planks when wood is loose-stacked for drying. Needless to say, this is not the best quality wood in the pile!
You did mention elsewhere that you're thinking of 30 inch wide shelves. For that width, 1 x 3 is adequate, especially if you rip it from 1 x 6 and skip the bigger knots when you're cutting joists. You can use the odd lengths where needed in odd places.
As has been mentioned, scrimping on benchwork isn't the best way to assure a good model railroad. OTOH, you're building a shelf to support trains, not your 200+# fellow model railroaders. My own preference would be to use steel studs, but that's NOT the minimum-cost route (although you would save quite a bit on fasteners - those little bitty sheet metal screws are much cheaper than deck screws.) I use steel to deal with a climate problem that you probably don't have.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
In my honest opinion, 2X4 legs are WAYYYY overkill. Consider the fact that the walls of your house are probably made with 2X4 framing and they are holding up a lot more weight than your train table ever will. As far as the type and grade of lumber you use, do not use the cheap stuff with knots and warps in it. The potential for roller coaster track-work is increased greatly.
For my 3'X6' N Scale bench-work I personally used clear pine that I got from Home Depot. They have what they call "Hobby Lengths". It is 1X2, 1X3 or 1X4 in one, two, three and four foot lengths. They are all smooth, straight and clear and ready to use. The longer six, eight and ten foot lengths can be used and are cheaper but all I had was a handsaw so I didn't mind paying an extra four or five dollars more in total to get all my wood already cut to length. If you have access to a table saw, just get some reasonable grade plywood as was suggested and cut it into 3" strips and use that for your dimensional lumber. It should be very stable.
Good luck with the new project.
Blue Flamer.
I used 1x3's but put them 12" on center under my layout. Very sturdy.
I used 2x4's for legs.
But foam is my base. I kinda wish I had put down 1/4" luan ply first then teh foam, but the foam is perfectly fine.
If I were to use 1/2" plywood as a base, I would maybe use 1x4's 12 on centers. That should be sturdy enough,I would think,
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
cudaken First question, what are Furring Strips? Second, I have thought of using 1/2 to 3/4 inch plywood. Is there any downside to using them? Will they split when I use screws on the end? I would predrill holes first. Third, what is a lap joint?
Furring strips are those 1x2's. They're usually installed up against the face of a block or concrete wall to provide an anchorage for drywall. That's referred to as "furring out" the wall.
If you're talking about installing screws into the edge of the plywood, I wouldn't recommend it. That's the plywood's weak plane. Try to lay things out so you're only fastening into the face of the wood - then you'll have a pretty free hand. I used 1/2" on my current layout and the one previous to that, and have only encountered one instance of warping, and that was located at the end of a narrow strip as I made the cookie cuts. 3/4" certainly reduces the risk of warpage, but obviously carries a price premium with it.
A lap joint is where you overlap two pieces and fasten them together to make them behave as a single piece. For instance, if you use cookie-cutter method and have two strips of plywood meeting end-to-end, you could take a short piece of plywood and screw it to the underside of both pieces across the joint. That would qualify as a lap joint.
A Cross Lap Joint. I just used one screw.
I just clamped tons of 1' x 4's together and ran the Radial Arm Saw over them so they fit snug. Very light and very strong. My 6' x 18' grid bench with 2" foam was carried around and into the house by two of us.
I have labeled a photo of my layout at an earlier stage that shows most of the construction I used. I basically followed the L-Girder method that is in one of the MR books on benchwork. I built the L girders from 1x4 and 1x2 glued and clamped together. Once dry they are as solid any other method and they have the advantage of easy assembly. Hope this helps, but in all cases, use GOOD LUMBER. the extra cost is well worth it.
Since you asked for photos...
You mention you're presently between jobs. Perhaps now is not the best time to spend on a hobby that isn't a necessity to your survival. But, you know your financial situation better than the fellow forum members.
In no way would I drill and run screws into the end of plywood crossmembers, nor would I do it in solid lumber. An end grain screw joint is one of the weakest type of joints you could create. All of my benchwork was screwed together using pocket hole joints. See http://www.kregtool.com/Pocket-Hole-Jigs-Prodlist.html for more information. If you were closer to Austin, I'd be happy to help you cut and build the frame for your new and improved empire...best of luck with your new project.
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
Thanks for all the great answers and pictures. I am leaning toward using plywood cut to 4 inch strips. Plus I may able to get the folks at Lowe's to cut them. All so going to prices the hobby wood for center supports.
Reason I am going to use 2 X 4 for the legs is two fold. I have a bunch now and I am planing on tearing out the storage room that is in the garage. I can use the framing left from it.
Far as not being the best time to build while I am in between jobs. I seem to all wise get jobs where I am working 50 to 60 hours a week. Sure don't feel much like working on a layout on my days off. So I might as well start the project now while I have some time.
I have sufficient supply's to get started, miles of wire, 300 feet of track, around 50 turnouts and some wood.
But first, I need to come up with a good plan, that is going to take awhile with what i am hopping to do.
Thanks again for all your time.
Wow, a lot of trash talk about 2x4's.
I have a large layout, and the benchwork is 1/2 inch plywood laid on a 2x4 frame with 2x4 legs.
I buy my 2x4's in 8 foot lengths at Home Depot. I have no problem with twisting, cupping, bowing, or warping. When I select a 2x4, I lay one end on the floor on the 2 inch side and look straight down the length of the 2x4 from the other end. If it is not perfectly straight, I reject it.
Overkill? Sure, but 2x4's are cheap. Why not?
Rich
Alton Junction
WARNING - ripping boards to width runs a great risk. A baoard that is straight may well warp when you rip it.
ARTHILL Hi Ken WARNING - ripping boards to width runs a great risk. A baoard that is straight may well warp when you rip it.
Great, I thought I was done!
Plywood doesn't have the problem, since each layer has the grain in a different orientation. Corners though usually need a 'nailer' since a screw or nail into the end grain of plywood is not usually very secure. Combined with yellow glue like ELmer's or Tightbond and it will probably be plenty strong.
Thanks Randy!
Another thing to consider is how much strength is gained by taking two boards and forming them into a structural member such as an "L" or "T". Useless, puny 1x2's or 1x3's become something of much more use when you put two together to form a beam. I've also found that when made into members the wood tends to straighten out and stay straight.. Take a board, lay a bead of carpenters glue down the edge, clamp the other in place and let dry overnight. The next day you'll have something that is exceptionally strong, less prone to warping, and lighter than a 2x4.
Lance
Visit Miami's Downtown Spur at www.lancemindheim.com
HoosierLine Another thing to consider is how much strength is gained by taking two boards and forming them into a structural member such as an "L" or "T". Useless, puny 1x2's or 1x3's become something of much more use when you put two together to form a beam. I've also found that when made into members the wood tends to straighten out and stay straight.. Take a board, lay a bead of carpenters glue down the edge, clamp the other in place and let dry overnight. The next day you'll have something that is exceptionally strong, less prone to warping, and lighter than a 2x4. Lance Visit Miami's Downtown Spur at www.lancemindheim.com
In support of Lance's statement about the strength of L-shaped support structures, consider this anecdote.
Some years ago, I wanted to place a 20 gallon aquarium on a 36" x 15" wood shelf that was part of a wood spindle bookshelf system. A series of shelves were mounted on top of one another, separated by 18" tall spindles that screwed through holes in the shelves to one another. The weight of the aquarium once filled with water plus gravel would be approximately 175 pounds.
It was clear that the wood shelf would not support the wieight of the aquarium. So, I went to a metal fabricator and requested that he fabricate two 36 inch long metal bars, two inches wide, with two holes at either end of each bar to accommodate the wood spindle screws. The wood shelf supporting the aquarium would sit on top of the metal bars.
The fabricator remarked that the 36 inch span would cause the metal bars to sag under the weight and crack the wood shelf. So, when he fabricated the metal bars, he took 4 inch wide bars and bent them at a 90 degree angle, forming an L-shape with each bar. That did the trick. I later went back and had him fabricate more bars so that I could place additional aquariums on the bookshelf.
Any L-shaped structure is many times stronger than a single straight structure, even cardboard works that way.
I recommend *strongly* against using firring strips-- I speak from experience. When I went up to Home Depot, I thought I found the perfect solution for cheap benchwork... and I bought six or eight "packages" of firring strips-- bundles of however many wrapped with the plastic straps. I brought them home, let them sit for awhile to acclimate (a few months) and then I popped the bands and started building. The strips are a little rough, but no big deal there, I can always sand whatever I need to. In a fit of ultra dedication I got pretty much the entire benchwork built in a weekend. My first shot at building a layout in my current house. Later that week I started examining what I'd built. None of the stuff that was affixed to the walls had any problems, but *everything* that wasn't was warped and crooked. And it had been nearly ruler-straight when I started. Moreover, almost all of the unused wood was likewise twisted and warped and unfit for use. So I knocked it all down and chalked it up as my first lesson in benchwork design. (Little did I know then, but I was destined to learn a few more :-)
The strips that weren't too badly warped have come in handy though as temporary legs, or bracing / cribbing on occasion, etc. The rest is stacked up in my garage, where ironically, much of it has straightened back out again :-)
One thing I will say though, nearly all of the wood that I made into "L-Girders" has stayed relatively straight and unwarped. One of these days I'm going to use it to build a workbench out in the garage. I tossed a bunch of it out though. Its not worth the hassle.
I've had much better luck with the white and yellow pine they sell, and its still pretty cheap. If I was richer, I'd probably use the birch wood or something. However, none of the wood I've built into the benchwork has been a problem, and some of its been up for well over a year now, and in every season. Mine is not painted-- though I'm contemplating doing so, mostly for aesthetics. Some of the wood I've had laying in the pile has warped a little. Although that's more from improper storage than anything. Sometimes the pile shifts and I'm not always as fastidious as I should be about re-stacking it, thus it warps a little. And the 1x2's are probably the worst offenders. I don't have nearly the same degree of problems out of the 1x3's and 1x4's.
That's my experience.
John
BATMAN Try some independent stores.
Try some independent stores.
Wish I could find one. Home Depot.... Lowes.... blech.