rrinker You know, in thinking it over I don't knwo that I'd WANT to attempt something so large. It's too much for one person to build by themselves (well, maybe if I had started at 16 and kept the same focus my entire life..). But as soon as you get other peopel involved you end up doing too much people management. Even if you have all the money and this is YOUR layout 100% paid for with your sudden fortune (and not a club where everyone contributes and needs to be accomodated), there's still much to do in keeping everyone's focus on YOUR vision for YOUR layout - after a while it wouldn't be any fun anymore and the project would slowly die off and never be completed. As for having a custom builder do it, even if I had all the money in the world I don't think I'd want to do that. I have too much fun building. And to have them only 'mostly' finish it, that leaves pretty much just the part I am least skilled at and least inclined to finish - the scenery. I don't doubt that if you're honest with yourself, we've ALL had dreams of a monster size layout. How practical that is ends up being another matter. I think the more you lean towards prototypical accuracy (be it replicating an actual railroad or proto-freelancing), the less practical that monster dream layout becomes. --Randy
You know, in thinking it over I don't knwo that I'd WANT to attempt something so large. It's too much for one person to build by themselves (well, maybe if I had started at 16 and kept the same focus my entire life..). But as soon as you get other peopel involved you end up doing too much people management. Even if you have all the money and this is YOUR layout 100% paid for with your sudden fortune (and not a club where everyone contributes and needs to be accomodated), there's still much to do in keeping everyone's focus on YOUR vision for YOUR layout - after a while it wouldn't be any fun anymore and the project would slowly die off and never be completed.
As for having a custom builder do it, even if I had all the money in the world I don't think I'd want to do that. I have too much fun building. And to have them only 'mostly' finish it, that leaves pretty much just the part I am least skilled at and least inclined to finish - the scenery.
I don't doubt that if you're honest with yourself, we've ALL had dreams of a monster size layout. How practical that is ends up being another matter. I think the more you lean towards prototypical accuracy (be it replicating an actual railroad or proto-freelancing), the less practical that monster dream layout becomes.
--Randy
Your comment about 'people mgmt' is a good one, but that notwithstanding, I wonder whether building a "large, unlimited layout with unlimited funds" might not actually prove to be *easier* in the overall because it wouldn't require as much forethought and consideration for fitting the desires of the modeler into the space. One could just crib from the real thing and copy whole swaths of trackage in their entirety.
But I question whether or not the results would be as spectacular as the imagination might make them seem...? Part of the hobby of model railroading involves using one's imagination, and using the imagination in various ways. From creating a scene out of thin air, to imagining how it "fits in" with the rest of the landscape and track plan, to "filling in" the gaps and inadequacies of the space and our abilities as modelers, to "extending" the layout to limitless bounds, if only through the judicious use of staging and hidden trackage.
Perhaps the luxurious apportions would make it all too easy to simply slap down track willy-nilly in an effort to fill the space without really thinking through the entirety of the concept. I think the results in the end could be less likely to be "spectacular" and more likely to be "ho-hum" as a consequence. While I do think that many layouts could benefit from more space-- specific space, something needed to meet one or two more "druthers" of the modeler, I think that unlimited space, for most modelers and layouts (and certainly myself included) would end up being more of a distraction than a boon-- after a point, which may be different for different modelers.
However, that said, I would like a little more space than what I have, particularly as larger linear blocks. The layout I would most like to model would incorporate a couple of large yards at either end, with offline staging just beyond, and connected via a circuitous mountain route with a reasonably large (tall) vertical climb. The yards at each end would be located in medium-sized cities permitting railroad facilities and a decent amount of industrial switching. Inbetween would be somewhere between three and maybe five smaller towns with local industry trackage, interchange trackage with other railroads, etc. It might be nice to have a small narrow-gauge logging or mining railroad as a connection too. Main traffic would be coal, steel products, mfgr'd goods, milk, mail, and some passenger. All set in transition era to enjoy late steam and early diesel.
I have almost the space I would like now. If I could I would maybe double it, perhaps not even that much, to get the two yards and the more fully-developed climb / route through the mountains. Beyond that I'm pretty happy with the concept I have.
John
This discussion was brought over to one of the Yahoo groups as well. One big point - how many would get bored running a train over actual distances? Set the throttle, blow the horn for crossings, and otherwise just walk along with your train for a half hour until it gets to the next siding. I think all but the most hardcore railroaders would lose interest by this point. That giant hanger-size layout replicating the prototype 100% to scale seems like a really neat idea when you first think about it - but practically it's probably not a great idea.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker One big point - how many would get bored running a train over actual distances? Set the throttle, blow the horn for crossings, and otherwise just walk along with your train for a half hour until it gets to the next siding.
One big point - how many would get bored running a train over actual distances? Set the throttle, blow the horn for crossings, and otherwise just walk along with your train for a half hour until it gets to the next siding.
Well, this matches exactly my experience. Once a year, we have a big model railroading fest, where two clubs meat in a large hall to set up their modules to a huge layout with a single line mainline run of up to actual 500 ft. There are up to 7 intermediate stations to be served, where cars are to be set out and spotted, as well as new ones to be picked up. We run on a time table with a fast clock, but that does not prevent people from "speeding", just to get to the stations in no time at all and do the switching work. We now have imposed a "speed limit" of 20 scale mph on the entire layout (it is a narrow gauge line),but the majority wants to lift it or increase the number of stations.
Big is not always better!
NeO6874 with that much space, I think I'd try to set up the PRR from NYC to Chicago. Would also have a little of the NYC (just so I could race the 20th Century Limited & Broadway Limited ) -- though the NYC would likely be mostly hidden/staging trackage.
with that much space, I think I'd try to set up the PRR from NYC to Chicago. Would also have a little of the NYC (just so I could race the 20th Century Limited & Broadway Limited ) -- though the NYC would likely be mostly hidden/staging trackage.
Which, of course, is how it should be....
MisterBeasley 250 years, you say? Well, in that case, better pre-order that engine from BLI so I'll get it in time...
250 years, you say? Well, in that case, better pre-order that engine from BLI so I'll get it in time...
Relax, there's no hurry, really.
rrinkerThat giant hanger-size layout replicating the prototype 100% to scale seems like a really neat idea when you first think about it - but practically it's probably not a great idea.
Hey Randy, quiit raining on my fantasy! Personally, I would model the entire Monon railroad!
Jim (descending back into a blissful stare...)
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Sounds like a neat idea; not sure if a square would be my preferred shape though.
Of course, since I still have a real job and small children, this would probably only work if I won the lottery or some such and model railroading became my full time gig.
That could be cool; my current full time job is from an outpouring from a hobby (computers) when I was a teenager, so it isn't like I haven't been down that road before.
TR
Miniature world in Germany comes to mind, 19000 sq. feet 7.3 million euros. operating airports hiwayss and on and on. Trick is to think BIG enuf for such a layout. BILL
rrinker One big point - how many would get bored running a train over actual distances?
One big point - how many would get bored running a train over actual distances?
Quite a few people, I expect.
But there isn't really all that much of a chance of running a H0 scale train over "actual distances" in a 100 x 100 foot room.
Even if you have 100 feet between stations or sidings, that still is only 8700 feet, or a tad over 1.6 miles, in 1:1 scale. Not all that far.
Or put another way - with a 10 foot train, it will still only be about 10 train lengths between sidings. You are not really going to be walking along with your train for hours and hours between things happening on any model train layout :-)
But sure - we all know that 100 x 100 feet is unlikely to be a practical size for the majority of forum readers (including myself) :-)
Grin, Stein
Already have planned it, well sketched it out, although I figured I would only need about 40' x 40'in HO but if I went to O, 100'x100' would be just about right.
SoCal/Los Angeles, circa summer 1941, From the SF to San Diego to the SP up to Santa Barbara to the UP out to San Berdo, and the PE up to Pasadena and down to Long Beach. It was a great big E shaped layout with walk arounds aisles on all side so you could take advantage of all sides of the layout shape. It would be spectacular.
If I had the funds, and if I did, I would also have it professionally built, something like that would require ahellova alot more effort if I wanted it done in one lifetime.
Have fun with your trains
Well, I was assuming well over 100x100 - the OP put that out there as an example, but with unlimited funds I'd need more than 100x100 to build my ultimate dream. And full, or even half, prototypical distances between stations would I think get real boring, real quick, at least if you ran at prototypical speeds.
I'm not sure I would build one big layout, but a bunch of small layouts. I've seen a number of plans that I think would be interesting to build and run.
But OTOH, the idea of building a layout in O or Proto:48, that could handle full-length passenger cars and large, modern steam power... that would be the life!
As Daniel Burnham said, "Make no small plans."
Dan
Call me guilty.
I have a clear span 40 X 80 room available, probably won't use all that space, but I have developed plans for several configurations, the one design feature they all have in common is they don't exceed a dozen turnouts. I have an aversion to excessive benchwork as well, with the exception of towns and switching districts the one foot depth or narrower design does the trick.
My prototype was a 26 mile branch serving several communties that grew a tremendous amount of citrus, 125 cars during a packing season were not uncomon, there was addtional traffic sources that indirectly supported this endevor, lumber, chemicals to name a few that were a 365 day a year operation. A local worked the branch daily during the off season, during packing season mutliple train movements on this single track branch had to be timed just right due the paucity of sidings and those available lacked capacity.
Keep the scenery simple, imply the surrounding mountains by means of a backdrop-the same technique can be used to depict the thousands of acres of citrus grown in the Valley-I only need a few 2D groves which can be easily and cheaply massed produced using products available at my local craft store.
Stay away from massed produced turnnouts, I've always built my special trackwork, no exception here, the funds are better spent on other projects. I do see the possibilty for incorporating flex track into the long runs, industrial sidings will remain hand laid as I normally forgo the ties, bury it in dirt and weeds. More bucks saved.
I only know of one commercial kit that fits my structure needs, just as well, no true kits exist to capture the diversity found among packing houses., i've already scratchbuilt most of those required, just a matter of relocating them to the new layout In 1927, 9 major packing concerns and 1 lumber distributor who consumed the bulk of traffic, there was large tool and die works that recieved occasional inbound rail service as there trade was locally based and not dependent on rail.
Of course take it in steps, nice and easy does it all the time.
Dave
A lot of the replies here deal with questions / concerns over maintenence on a super huge layout. Well, I think I have the answer.
Rain.
Assuming that we have unlimited cash flow, and enough time to accomplish it, why wouldn't we just re-invent the science of layout building? Imagine that you could have all of your scenery fixed permanently in place, so permanently in fact that they would become waterproof. What then, would stop you from using a simple water deluge system to keep the layout free of dust? Clear acrylic sealers would cover everything but the track and trees made with foam could be dipped or sprayed before instalation.
I picture a set of plexiglass walls that descend from the ceiling or come up through slots in the floor and surround the layout. With everything sealed, you could have it actually rain on your layout! That would at least control the dust situation. After the showers have passed, a train of track cleaning and drying cars could be dispatched to maintain the right of way. Of course, the track should be brass or stainless to prevent rust and the "track dryers" should sweep the sides of the rails not just the tops. After the track is cleaned, a series of blowers could be activated to dry out the landscape. When everything is done, the walls go back to their hidey-holes and the trains can be brought back out.
At the very least you'd make the cover of every model railroading magazine in existence! And probably end up on TV too!
I've seen snow, I've seen sun, but never have I seen anyone effectively model a rainy day! Why is that?
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
With unlimited funds available, why go through the trouble of building a model railroad? I´d buy myself a real railroad.
- why don´t I have that kind of cash?
Now THERE'S an idea, Ulrich! What modeler hasn't wanted to take the throttle of a REAL locomotive? With unlimited funds you could have whatever you wanted - like that particular steam locomotive where the last one was cut up for scrap 60 years ago? No problem, pay someoen to construct a new one.
As for rain - Rand Hood has done some really awesome modeling of rain effects. His photos and techniques were in Model Railroader a few years back.
I have this daydream a lot my self Rich. After running at K-10 Model Train's Layout ( It is 80 foot by 61 foot ) I would say 100 X 100 is just way to big. Heck I get tired running at K 10.
First thing is I had unlimited funds would be to add a second floor over the top of my Garage where the current layout is located. I would extend the garage say another 10 foot (unlimited funds I be back in to real cars again), enclose the patio and my in ground pool, both are straight back behind the garage.
There would be two stairs going up the Train Room away from the walls. One on the Eest pool side and one the North side. Up stairs would be 21 X 40 with it is own Heat and AC system and some Sky Lights in the center, restroom and low sitting bar area on the north side of the room but not against the wall.
Layout it self would be around the room style and 2 bloops into toward the center of the room. Layout would be 14 X 36 with 3 foot isles behind the bench work on the North and South side of the room. Layout it self would be on top of Kitchen Cabinets for storage.
Layout would be to levels, but would made to look like there is only one. In other words the lower would have 4 main line and upper would have 2 mains built toward the rear of the layout. It would be 2 foot tall and the rest of the layout would look like it is in a valley. In the east corner there would be a two line helix.
West side of the bench wold be 30 inches wide, upper level there be a long 2 line bridge that would span 8 feet.
North side would be 40 inches wide and have the town of Kingsdown planted there. There would be some small industrial switching and team tracks. Midway point there would be a bloop that would come out around 4 foot and back in after 4 foot or so.
East side would have a plate glass window looking into the pool area. It would mirror the west side as far as the sizes and bridges.
South side upper section would still have 2 mains. Lower section would have 2 lines going in to hidden staging and 2 of them would be seen. In the hidden staging there would be a parking for 10 to 15 freight trains with 25 to 40 cars each.There would all so be a bloop 4 foot out and around 6 long.
Layout would be controlled with JMRI software and my computer. Computer would stop a freight train in the hidden staging, and start a different one, all switching would all so be controlled by the computer. I would still use my SEB and add two more DB 150's as boosters. It would all so be radio throttles.
I would hire a Pro to do 80% of the work. Hills would be done in foam. Mainly small towns and rural with lots of trees, and a river or to. Bottom would have some grades around 1.5% and 30 inch turns.
Well, time to stop daydreaming and no ones going to read this anyway.
Ken
I hate Rust
cudaken Well, time to stop daydreaming and no ones going to read this anyway. Ken
I wouldn't say that.
If I had more space, I would go for very large radius curves - 60" or more, in HO. I was a member of a club that did 40" radius as a minimum, but had a fair amount of curves that approached 60".
http://www.trainweb.org/cbw/trans_cbwdesc.htm in case anybody is interested.
I've got a 30" min on my current layout, and I wish I could have pushed it to 36" or more, but it would have significantly altered the operations side of the house.
With truly unlimited fudns and space I'd consider going to O scale, and using somethign huge - like 12 foot minimum radius, so I could run anything and it would all look good. And with the larger size of O scale, I could continue longer as far as deteriorating eyesight goes. Plus you can get BIG speakers in them for great sound.
Build it myself - probably just plain old 2 rail O scale. Have lot sof help? Perhaps Proto:48 so the track doesn't look too wide.
Penny Trains I've seen snow, I've seen sun, but never have I seen anyone effectively model a rainy day!
I've seen snow, I've seen sun, but never have I seen anyone effectively model a rainy day!
Have a look at the micro layout "Brooklyn 3 am" by Australian modeler "Professor Klyzr" on Carl Arendt's micro layouts site: http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page87/index.html
It is not raining at 3 am, but looking at the layout, there is no doubt that there very recently has been rain.
Grin,Stein
AH yes, that one too. I've seen that before. Another AWESOME layout.
The late Linn Westcott touched upon this subject in hi 101 Track Plans book. His finaly layout was titled "If I had a million". Back in the day he wrote that, a million dollars was a lot of money
His point was that even with unlimited funds and all the space a modeler could want, there were limits on just how big a layout a modeler should attempt. Maintenance becomes more of an issue the larger the layout becomes.
Since I already have a fairly large space, I am already building my dream layout. If I were to dream bigger, I would probably just build a bigger version of what I am already building. The first thing I would do would consider moving up to S or O scale. I would first find out what is available in those scales. If the selection of locos and rolling stock was enough to keep me happy, I might supersize my layout. However, being rich would not make my arms grow longer, which means I would be restricted to the same depth of benchwork as I have for HO so the downside would be relatively less space for scenery.
Whether I changed scales or not, I think I would keep the same concept I have now. I might add a few more towns along the mainline and would definitely put more space between them. Right now, I have a paltry amount of rural running on my layout. A larger space would allow me a better ratio of country to city scenes. Still, the distance between tows would be hopelessly compressed. To model a distance of just 5 miles in HO, you would need 300 feet. The layout would have all the latest bells and whistles, sound, signalling, etc. Probably the biggest change for me would be that I would hire the best layout building company money could buy. The layout would still be my concept and largely my design, giving proper consideration to their suggestions, but I would still be the author. I would leave the grunt work of building to professionals. It would be the quickest way to get the layout I want. To many, the fun is in the building. For the most part, I have never felt that way. Building is just a means to an end. A fully operational, beautifully scenicked layout of my choosing is what I am after. If I could achieve that by writing a check instead of laboring for thousands of hours, I would do it in a heart beat.
richhotrain I have been reading a number of posts this morning where our fellow modelers are down on their luck, out of work, limited funds, medical issues. I feel so bad for all of this guys and wish them well. I also read about another of modelers who are interested in building small layouts either because they only have limited space or are short of funds to go larger. I thought I would do my part to cheer everyone up with an upbeat question. What would you do if you had virtually unlimited space, say a space measuring 100' x 100', unlimited funds, and the time to build and landscape a huge layout? What would you do? What would you model? How would you landscape it? Rich
I have been reading a number of posts this morning where our fellow modelers are down on their luck, out of work, limited funds, medical issues. I feel so bad for all of this guys and wish them well.
I also read about another of modelers who are interested in building small layouts either because they only have limited space or are short of funds to go larger.
I thought I would do my part to cheer everyone up with an upbeat question.
What would you do if you had virtually unlimited space, say a space measuring 100' x 100', unlimited funds, and the time to build and landscape a huge layout? What would you do? What would you model? How would you landscape it?
Rich
I will take the unlimited funds, and have some relative spare time to play already {if my back holds out} , but for space-I can't see that I'd like more than a 10x 20' foot around the walls or so.
I DO have a small 3.5 foot by 5.1 foot HO layout do to limited space {and feel lucky to have that} and would really like more space, but I can't see that a 100 x 100' space would make me any happier than a 10x 20'! Then I'd have to plan it, build it and scenic it and 100x 100 would be a bit of a nightmare to me to do that.
Maybe I have been conditioned to think small-heck I'd be happy with a 4 x 8' OR a 5 x 9 right now!!
I would, regardless of the size of my new pike, still freelance the prototype of B & O and all it's incarnates {with trackage rights to PRR steamers} in several eras swapping out things and stuff and stuff and things to "change" eras so I wouldn't be bored with my new found larger layout!
Oh, to dream, perchance to build.....
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
That section in 100 Track Plans is actually an exceprt from a much more detailed article that appeared in MR. I happen to have the issue, but I forget exactly which one it is. Fromt he 50's definitely. The article goes into more detail on the design of the layout.
Depending on where you are in the country, a million dollars might still build that building and the stuff in it. I really liek the idea of a dedicated building, with room reserved for a lounge, workshop, and the ultimate necessity, a bathroom so you don;t have to run into the house while out workign on the railroad.
That NYC 3am module is really cool! But...I still need a technique that will stand up to daylight inspection, and that means modeling drips and droplets. : ) Any ideas there kids? Personally I still like the misting greenhouse sprinklers idea...but back in the real world I really do want to model rain. In particular, I'm planning to rebuild my 9 by 15 "U" shaped O gauge 3-rail pike. It will model the post-industrial rust belt wasteland of the Cuyahoga river valley of Cleveland in the 1970's. That means a lot of steel and concrete and very little green. But lots of bridges! The "river" will actually be the aisle down the center of the layout with edging and small irregularly shaped "bumpouts" to simulate the brown water. With that kind of dirty, sooty, rusty, decrepid scenery, a drab, dreary, rainy day would really set the mood!
I have a few suggestions on the mobility/reach problems as well, considering our pockets have become botomless recently. : )
First of all, how about a chair that rides on a rail of it's own around the layout? It could be set to match the speed of the train you're chasing. Imagine the home video tracking shots you could get with a contraption like that!
Secondly, if the layout's too wide, how about employing circus technology? Why not have a system of wires and pulleys to "fly" yourself over the layout? Again, imagine the photos and videos you could take if you had something like that! Tired of watching your steam engines from the side of the tracks? Why not fly above them and look right down the stack!
This may all seem frivilous, but many times I find myself saying "why couldn't I do that???" Daydreaming leads to tangibles.
That's an idea that's been in my dreams forever - a system where you lay in a harness sort of thing and fly over top of the layout, with a place for tools and so forth so you could zoom over to a work spot, raise or lower yourself, and go to work. Also the opposite - motorized creepers for scooting around UNDER the layout.
I would select 4 or 5 areas of the country that I love and would model coast to coast railway. Areas would include;
I wouldn't build one single layout. I'd build 10 or 15 sperate ones of varying prototypes and eras (and scales). I'd complete one at a time before moving to the next one so that I'd have some completed scenery to look at and the ability to actually run trains. Plus, if I do get bored (and I can't imagine that I would), I wouldn't be abandoning an unfinished project, because I'd have already completed a few.
If I had unlimited funds I would build a two car garage seperate from the house complete with plumbing, cable TV and A/C. I would then hire a professional firm to construct a logging railroad complete with Shays, Climaxs and Heislers on one side of the space. Once this was up and running I would purchase a 1966 289 Cobra for the other side of the garage.....can't get much better than that.
With the parameters listed in the title post I would simply build my current layout on a larger scale. I would have more space between towns and give it a wider girth so I could put in more scenic elements. I would have a far larger carfloat dock and I would be able to model the bay between docks. It's taken me 30 years to figure out what I like to model and what I want in a model railroad. I like what I have now, I just would like it to have a larger footprint.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"