Denny,
What I was getting at, and I think Paul and Stein are as well, is it appears you will have to move from outside the pit to inside the pit frequently if you plan to, for example, switch the yard and then switch the quarry. The yard can really only be accessed from outside of the pit.
You may be nimble, but that would still get old quickly. I think most experienced modelers would try to convince you to avoid having to frequently duck under benchwork as you operate trains.
- Douglas
steinjr Are you envisioning turning the long train around - ie having a long train first run clockwise, then cut off the engine, run the engine around the cars to hook onto the other end of the cars and then head out in the opposite direction? Or are you just talking about the switcher occasionally going out with a couple of cars, and coming back in the opposite direction either pulling or pushing a couple of cars after switching an industry up the line somewhere? Or are you envisioning running more than one mainline train after all ? :-) Reaching over the main to work the yard is mainly a problem if you get distracted by trains zipping by right under your shirt sleeves while you are trying to concentrate on coupling or uncoupling cars a couple of tracks deep into the yard beyond the main. As for getting into a single ended yard with trains arriving at the yard from both directions: engines can go both forward and backward, pulling or pushing cars. In a pinch, you can always use the switcher to help out getting cars onto off a train on the main or onto a train on the main. Trains don't need to go through the yard, as long as you can push cars into the yard using either the road engine or your switcher. There is couple of other possible variants as well - like taking the road engine off the front of a clockwise bound train and moving into a siding, having the switcher come out and pull a block off the front of the train, take it into the yard, pick up and outbound block, pull out, push onto train, then get out of the way, so the road engine can couple back onto the train. Or having the road engine on a counter clockwise run cut off, run around it's cars, couple to cars at the rear of the train, pull them up the line and shove them into the yard, pick up outbound cars from the yard, pull onto the line, shove onto end of train, then run around again to couple to the front of the train to continue the journey. If you take a long train into a double ended yard with short tracks, you have blocked the other end of the yard. So now you functionally have two single ended short tracks: You honestly do not need a double ended yard with short tracks. It's only effect is making switching more boring, and having far less yard capacity :-) Smile, Stein
Are you envisioning turning the long train around - ie having a long train first run clockwise, then cut off the engine, run the engine around the cars to hook onto the other end of the cars and then head out in the opposite direction?
Or are you just talking about the switcher occasionally going out with a couple of cars, and coming back in the opposite direction either pulling or pushing a couple of cars after switching an industry up the line somewhere?
Or are you envisioning running more than one mainline train after all ? :-)
Reaching over the main to work the yard is mainly a problem if you get distracted by trains zipping by right under your shirt sleeves while you are trying to concentrate on coupling or uncoupling cars a couple of tracks deep into the yard beyond the main.
As for getting into a single ended yard with trains arriving at the yard from both directions: engines can go both forward and backward, pulling or pushing cars. In a pinch, you can always use the switcher to help out getting cars onto off a train on the main or onto a train on the main.
Trains don't need to go through the yard, as long as you can push cars into the yard using either the road engine or your switcher.
There is couple of other possible variants as well - like taking the road engine off the front of a clockwise bound train and moving into a siding, having the switcher come out and pull a block off the front of the train, take it into the yard, pick up and outbound block, pull out, push onto train, then get out of the way, so the road engine can couple back onto the train.
Or having the road engine on a counter clockwise run cut off, run around it's cars, couple to cars at the rear of the train, pull them up the line and shove them into the yard, pick up outbound cars from the yard, pull onto the line, shove onto end of train, then run around again to couple to the front of the train to continue the journey.
If you take a long train into a double ended yard with short tracks, you have blocked the other end of the yard. So now you functionally have two single ended short tracks:
You honestly do not need a double ended yard with short tracks. It's only effect is making switching more boring, and having far less yard capacity :-)
Smile, Stein
Good suggestions, Stein. I do require a town, which is why the yard is placed where it is!
Here is the proposed layout for review:
Notice that I placed the yard feed line far in advance of it spreading out on both ends to allow better access as well as a huge amount of room to park a large train on the two mainline tracks without fouling entrances to the yard or town spur.
The yard could be modified to single access to the inner 3 (from the lower portion) yard tracks. The inner 2 already have the extensions on there so modding that would be any issue.
Hold my beer... ya'll watch this!
To further clarify- I plan on the mainline being occupied by the heavy engines, and the switcher engine to come out, grab cars and place them in the yard or wherever they need to go.
Reverse process to build the mainline.
As you can see, I'll be on the outside of the layout a decent amount as well... don't know about jumping in and out frequently being too much of a problem. I'll prob end up with a remote power pack system where I can plug in on the outside.
Or just have a longer cord...
80ktsClamp I'll prob end up with a remote power pack system where I can plug in on the outside. Or just have a longer cord...
I'll prob end up with a remote power pack system where I can plug in on the outside.
I was thinking along the lines of a hard hat.
BTW, as adjustment for your yard.... the two crossovers that lead from the one mainline to the outside track creates nasty S curves for the trains as they exit the big curves. Reversing the direction of the crossovers will avoid this potential derailment issue (especially if you are inside the pit when the cars derail and you have limited access to the derailed cars as another train is approaching )
Would there be any problem with moving the turnout a couple feet to the left? Anything wrong with having one on a bridge?
That was the original plan but I wasn't sure if you could do that or not.
I've always wanted a viking helmet. I can look cool and keep from getting a headache.
Ok- two new updates:
For the first mod, I took the previous S turn suggestion and modded the upper entry to where the mainline keeps going straight and the yard feeder turns into the mainline instead of the earlier configuration. This should fix the previous issue. Also I extended the outer most yard line through the... don't know what it's called but let's just call it "yard spread." Or just turnout... to see what that looks like and if it works.
I don't really like the way the yard is working like this, so I took stein's (and others) advice and nuked the upper yard turnout feed thing (yeah...that!). This really does enable a lot more room and looks just as good. Secondly, I added a turnout to shorten the run that the switcher engine will be running out to the outer/primary main from the lower portion of the layout. I really like this version:
80ktsClamp . The duck under can be accomplished either in the bottom section or in the narrow section to the lower left. Either that or you can do a flying ninja kick over the wide section to make a really awesome entrance. The choice is up to the user.
. The duck under can be accomplished either in the bottom section or in the narrow section to the lower left. Either that or you can do a flying ninja kick over the wide section to make a really awesome entrance. The choice is up to the user.
I love the ninja jump or duck........I really like to see you doing it often. I would make a choice from where to operate the layout. Adding the yard tracks to the inner track in stead of the outer tracks won't effect your plan much. All switching can be done from the central-pit; avoiding headaches and back-bruises.
My thoughts, your decisions
Paul
80ktsClamp Good suggestions, Stein. I do require a town, which is why the yard is placed where it is!
Cross section:
You: Operatior pit - town - yard - main - outside of layout.Yard has to be worked from outside of layout
Alternative: Operator pit - yard - town - main - outside of layout.
Yard and town worked from inside operator pit. If you make the benchwork fairly high (to make duckunders less painful also - mine has it's underside at 52" off the floor and only is uded when entering and leaving the room altogether), you also get the benefit that the view of trains on the main will be partly hidden behind the town (except for glimpses seen between the houses), when seen from the operator pit.
You now have a design where you can spend most of your time running trains on the inside - only very rarely needing to duck out to handle problems on the main towards the storage area of the room.
Paulus Jas I love the ninja jump or duck........I really like to see you doing it often. I would make a choice from where to operate the layout. Adding the yard tracks to the inner track in stead of the outer tracks won't effect your plan much. All switching can be done from the central-pit; avoiding headaches and back-bruises. My thoughts, your decisions Paul
I love the ninja jump or duck........I really like to see you doing it often. I would make a choice from where to operate the layout. Adding the yard tracks to the inner track in stead of the outer tracks won't effect your plan much. All switching can be done from the central-pit; avoiding headaches and back-bruises. My thoughts, your decisions Paul
I've tried to put the yard on the inner loop... I've got to say it's just not working for me. Thanks for the input :) Looks like the base elevation of the lowest structure in the layout is going to be around 40 inches. I'm 29 years old... I figure I've got a few years left of jumping below stuff and such. I can't imagine that a 40 inch tall 2.5 foot wide structure is too hard to hop beneath anyways.
Now then, about my entrance into the pit... take this guy, put a viking helmet on his head, and you have me on a standard day operating Trogdor Burnination Lines:
If anyone is wondering about the name of this operation.... behold the origin, from homestarrunner.com.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/786970/
Don't forget the consumate v's!
Hey Stein...
I just haven't worked out a solution that I like yet for having the yard on the inner loop with the town outside of that with workable servicing. If you can take what I've got and transfer servicing the town to the outside and moving the yard to the inside, I'd love to see it!
Thanks,
Denny
hi denny
i made a drawing.............it has to be fine tuned, but gives you an impression how it can be done.
I do not think you have much space for a city......but a row of buildings and a road are no problem.
I would serve the city from the yard..........and suggested possible options for an interchange.
And here is another possible rough sketch of a way of doing a town and a yard along the inside of the loop:
Of course - it also depends on what kind of town you are envisioning. The houses I have drawn in to give an impression of size are: 4" x 5" small town main street type commercial buildings, a small town freight house and a planing mill - I just picked some random structures from Walthers online catalog. Cars shown are 50-foot cars (olive) and 60-foot cars (dark green).
Also, be aware that your insistence that you do not want any viewblock down along the spine of the table at the right means that you cannot use Ye Olde partial buildings up against the backdrop/viewblock trick, since your town buildings will be viewable from three directions (from inside the pit, from the aisle along lower edge and from the storage area on the right). Makes it harder to create a perception that the scene is deeper than it really is.
Anyways - maybe my sketch and Paul's sketch will spark some ideas which will allow you to come up with an idea of your own that fits your vision better.
I really like both of those last designs from Paul and Stein. These guys have been helping you alot, I think you owe them a free tour of the cockpit in one of your planes.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Ditto Motley.
Paul and Stein's drawings are what I was thinking. Stein also makes a good point about using backdrops/viewblocks. The OP could place a viewblock just behind the town and gain another scene on the other side, viewed from the outside. Those buildings are only about 4 to 5 inches deep, which doesn't really provide any more depth than a properly constructed viewblock/backdrop placed just behind the first row of buildings would. Even less depth probably. The scene that would be outside the view block does not have a lot of track and could be sceniced like the wide open vista photo the OP posted very early in the thread.
With Paul and Stein's drawings, hopefully the OP will start to see more possibilities for the layout space.
Hey all!
Been on a trip, and we all now know that the iPad doesn't like me posting on the trains forums, haha... Paul and Stein's drawings are excellent and I've been working on what I can do with them. Thanks so much!
As far as a view block, any view block that isn't a natural ridge line or tree line isn't going to be in my layout... sorry! Just a small strip of a town is all I was looking for. You can see it lightly shaded in my original drawings...
FYI- stein's yard is excellent!
Stein- is there any way you could patch that into the board framework with the other spurs on the left I had in the most recent drawings?
Well, you guys got my noodle cooking good. I didn't draw in any buildings, but it allows one row with a road. A heavier industry of some sort will be down at the double spur. Passenger station on the inner bypass on the mainline.
The wide board that makes the slight indentation running up and down on the left I am probably just going to extend straight down to where it meets the narrower board at the bottom. Simpler cut and allows me a bit more room for fun.
If you guys are in ATL ever, I can give a tour of the training center and stuff. We can't take people down to the real airplanes anymore thanks to our extremist friends and their antics.
Here's a better scan along with the board cut modifcation:
Aha, very nice. I like that. The yard is perfect now.
Now..., enough of all the planning talk and go build it already.
btw, I used to live in ATL, just north of Buckhead. (back when that was the party place).
Motley Aha, very nice. I like that. The yard is perfect now. Now..., enough of all the planning talk and go build it already. btw, I used to live in ATL, just north of Buckhead. (back when that was the party place).
I believe some decent partying continues in Buckhead, haha. We've finally had some semi-fall weather here lately. Sure has been nice. I passed through Chicago Midway on Saturday... 59 degrees and holy moley that is a crazy rail yard just south of that airport.
Thanks for the compliments on the design! There was something that I wasn't quite happy with as I was envisioning operations around and I've corrected it in this by reversing the feed to the "servicing" spur:
Now, do I have to start a new thread on power routing vs insulated turnouts and DC vs DCC?
80ktsClamp Motley: Aha, very nice. I like that. The yard is perfect now. Now..., enough of all the planning talk and go build it already. btw, I used to live in ATL, just north of Buckhead. (back when that was the party place). I believe some decent partying continues in Buckhead, haha. We've finally had some semi-fall weather here lately. Sure has been nice. I passed through Chicago Midway on Saturday... 59 degrees and holy moley that is a crazy rail yard just south of that airport. Thanks for the compliments on the design! There was something that I wasn't quite happy with as I was envisioning operations around and I've corrected it in this by reversing the feed to the "servicing" spur: Now, do I have to start a new thread on power routing vs insulated turnouts and DC vs DCC?
Motley: Aha, very nice. I like that. The yard is perfect now. Now..., enough of all the planning talk and go build it already. btw, I used to live in ATL, just north of Buckhead. (back when that was the party place).
Oh do I miss Hotlanta and all the hot women there. We don't have any here in CO.
I think 8 pages is enough on this one. Easy, just go with an NCE DCC system, they are great for newbies. And just solder track feeders every 6-10 ft. or so, and ones for every diverging track on turnouts. Get the PECO insulfrogs (which I have) they are already good for DCC, and they work great. I have 24 of them on my new layout.
Motley Aha, very nice. I like that. The yard is perfect now. Now..., enough of all the planning talk and go build it already.
Not saying that this latest design of Denny's has huge challenges, but I still see a couple of points Denny might still want to consider before he starts building.
For instance - if Denny wants to be able to reach the main track from inside the pit when adding or removing cars to a train on the main, then maybe he should consider whether he wants to put so much distance between the inside of the pit and the main at the lower right that he can't reach out to the main in this area without ducking in and out of the pit ?
The switchback to the servicing facility at the lower left end of the yard - any particular reason to make it a switchback, instead of just having a plain spur branch off from the left side of the yard ?
Look at that long track curving down along the right end of the yard down to the industry with two tracks by the yard throat (entrance).
How about putting in a crossover between that spur and the yard lead next to it? Making that track do double duty as a runaround and as the approach to the two track industry would allow you to run around cars in that area, and thus not having to tie up two of the yard tracks for runaround moves, increasing yard capacity significantly.
Some more nitpicking : the crossovers on the main at the right still form S curves. S curves at a crossover can be avoided like this: http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/search?q=crossover
I see there is an extra siding added along the double track main. It's purpose is what? Where do you intend to access it from?
Smile,Stein
Stein-
For mainline access I can reach that from either of the two areas before it enters the wide area. The siding next to the mainline I plan on using for a train station line for the shorter pax trains or parking a shorter train. That line will only be used for shorter stuff.
The servicing spur will have equipment at each end of it... tanks for refueling and engine servicing as well as car servicing on the other end.
I like the idea of the crossover between the spur extension and the yard lead. I haven't quite figure out where to place it yet. I've tried a couple options and haven't found anything that I like the looks of.
The S-turn will be eliminated by reversing the mainline crossover directions on the long straight and adding parrallel crossovers on the siding as well. The problematic crossover will be completely eliminated.
Thanks for the nitpicking!
-Denny
Motley Oh do I miss Hotlanta and all the hot women there. We don't have any here in CO. I think 8 pages is enough on this one. Easy, just go with an NCE DCC system, they are great for newbies. And just solder track feeders every 6-10 ft. or so, and ones for every diverging track on turnouts. Get the PECO insulfrogs (which I have) they are already good for DCC, and they work great. I have 24 of them on my new layout.
Shoot.. in Boulder there be some gooood looking girls! I suggest looking there, haha.
I'm still learning about this whole DCC thing... the wiring does seem simpler with that. Is it expensive to mod my engines for DCC?
I'm assuming I should isolate all the track divergences and the sections that I have the feeder wires added... thus making it a block control more or less?
80ktsClamp Motley: Oh do I miss Hotlanta and all the hot women there. We don't have any here in CO. I think 8 pages is enough on this one. Easy, just go with an NCE DCC system, they are great for newbies. And just solder track feeders every 6-10 ft. or so, and ones for every diverging track on turnouts. Get the PECO insulfrogs (which I have) they are already good for DCC, and they work great. I have 24 of them on my new layout. Shoot.. in Boulder there be some gooood looking girls! I suggest looking there, haha. I'm still learning about this whole DCC thing... the wiring does seem simpler with that. Is it expensive to mod my engines for DCC? I'm assuming I should isolate all the track divergences and the sections that I have the feeder wires added... thus making it a block control more or less? -Denny
Motley: Oh do I miss Hotlanta and all the hot women there. We don't have any here in CO. I think 8 pages is enough on this one. Easy, just go with an NCE DCC system, they are great for newbies. And just solder track feeders every 6-10 ft. or so, and ones for every diverging track on turnouts. Get the PECO insulfrogs (which I have) they are already good for DCC, and they work great. I have 24 of them on my new layout.
Ya Boulder is either college kids or what we call "tree-huggers" and "hippies".
You can add DCC decoders to your DC engines no problem. Non sound decoders are under $50 and the sounds ones are around $80-100.
No need to isolate the turnouts, that's why the insulated turnouts are designed for. (Peco insulfrogs).
No need for block control at all with DCC. And the most important thing is you can run multiple engines at the same time, same track. It's all digitally controlled by the decoder. And the sound engines are really cool. Controling different sounds, coupler clank, air vents, air horns, everything can be controlled with the DCC throttle.
Another thing is you can control your turnouts if you want with the throttle. I have 24 switches and I control them all remotely with my throttle.
I would recommend picking up a DCC for beginners book at your LHS.
hi
i think you should replace the two right hand crossovers, the one at the top and the one at the bottom, by two left hand crossovers. This enables you to keep a mainline freight running, while using a part of the second main as a drill track.
I've reworked the crossovers to allow for better operation and eliminated the S turn completely.
Working on shopping for track... I really like the way the Atlas Code 83 with the concrete ties looks, and it seems to be what the railroads are using now.
Looks like the best price I can find for the super flex track is $3.99.
The Peco turnouts are quite pricey... haven't found anything below 24 dollars. Anyone know of any better places?
This thing has 99 feet of flex track and 28 turnouts... every penny saved counts!
Peco track and switches are quite pricey, but they are worth it! $ 24 for a #6 code 83 is about the best deal you can get. MSRP is $34.98.