Like a dumby I miscalculated the size of the door. It is 36 inches not 30 as I figured. I addressed the issue by flipping the door and shorting the center peninsula. The good news is I got to add back the lumber yard and an additional industry, a furniture factory.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I like this one; enough to wish trying it, but my current layout isn't ready for a teardown!
Is there a hatch liftout in the top right- and left- corners? That's a long reach for maintenance or to build scenery, etc.
Too bad about that door... No chance of reversing it to swing the other way? Hope you put a plexiglass guard around your logpond to control stray elbows/jackets/packages.
Have fun, George
George,
I realize about the upper corners. I purposefully made them low maintenance, but I also know there is no such thing. I will have to buy or build a contraption for getting back in there. I have been working on a design for an overhanging ladder, but the narrowness of the aisles makes it challenging.
I'll figure out something I'm sure.
I've been seeing ads for a 1-legged stepladder, sort of a Vee on its side. If you build your sections along the walls legless and cantilevered, the ladder should slip in there. Think they're a bit pricy for my taste, but worth a look-see. A trapeeze from the ceiling (if unfinished) might do the job?
This is the fun part of the hobby: cobbling something up.
Looks like a minimum of 4% grade on the branch and 2.5-3% on the main. The mains might be a tad steep for 1890's era model engines.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I am liking the last plan much more than the first. Then again, I enjoy the different places to "walk in". Makes the layout feel bigger. Also allows to observe the layout from different views, looking at at it from side or the other.
Tracks plans can be like something stone, more you grind on it, then move to polishing, it can come out perfect.
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
Dave,
The rise on the main is 4 1/2 inches in 323 inches of track. The spur is 4% but will only be run with geared steam. 6 logging cars or ore cars loaded going down, 6 empty going up. I put 4 and one half inches for the mainland runs, but there is no reason not to lower that to 4 or 3 3/4 inches.
Thanks Mark, John, and rrbell.
SpaceMouseThe rise on the main is 4 1/2 inches in 323 inches of track. The spur is 4% but will only be run with geared steam. 6 logging cars or ore cars loaded going down, 6 empty going up. I put 4 and one half inches for the mainland runs, but there is no reason not to lower that to 4 or 3 3/4 inches
Based on how I am reading the plan, it looks like the peninsula with the lumber mill is at the lowest elevation and the area where the yard is located is about 4-4.5 in above that. It that is correct, then the main track in the area around the lumber yard (#11) has to descend to an elevation 4" below the main from the staging to the switch yard (above and to the left of #4). That's about 15-16 ft run max. That works out to about 2.3-2.5% grade. (4.5 " in 192"/16 ft), all in hidden track, in the back of the layout with a 270 dgree + curve on either end.
Not saying it can't be done, just saying it has a higher degree of difficulty than the other parts of the layout. If you were running two 6 axle diesels, not a problem. Running 4-4-0's, you might want to mock up that stretch first thing and test it because that's the ruling grade on the main.
Using XTrkCAD i can calculate the exact length of runs. In each case it is 323 inches (total coincidence.) On my last layout with my 2-6-0 engines, my smallest, I was able to pull 6-10 cars up a 3.2 % grade with a 18 inch radius. 180 degree turn at the top.
Like I said, I will build it so that my engines clear the higher tracks and keep the grade to a minimum. Since all my critical clearances are underground, I just have to clear the roadbed and a two inch span of .080 styrene and no one will be the wiser. 4 1/2 inches is what I threw out there because I saw the 323 inch run and multiplied it by 1 1/2 and rounded it off.
I am very grade conscious.
BTW: I'm more worried about the geared steam getting the empties up the 4% hill. The Riverossi Heisler can't pull squat and will be relegated to switching the sawmill. But I'm worried about the re-motored MDC Climax A and Bachmann Spectrum Shay, neither of which I've ever tested.
Chip,
I've followed your plans over recent years and always enjoyed your postings. First of all, welcome back.
Nice plan now as well. My thoughts would be that the entire space could really benefit from narrowing that center peninsula somehow. And since you're working with 18 inch radius, the curve could support narrowing it. Just a few thoughts about it:
Do you need to model all four sides of the sawmill? If you chose to model three, for example, you might be able to shove the entire mill to the right and have the tracks concealed within, like you did with your first plan. You could gain some valuable inches and then re-center the peninsula between the garage door and left aisle.
Another thought w/b to try to have all of the buildings, such as the ore refinery, inside of the mainline somehow. Its a bit of a shame to gain space by using 18 inch radius curves, only to need a more wider peninsula to accomodate scenic elements. Maybe instead of having the mill spurs spread out a bit like a fan, have them closer together. That might allow you to fit the ore industry in there, or something different.
Or more radical, could you mirror flip the mill, spurs, and refinery from right to left on the peninsula? That would possibly allow the right side concealed track to be open, from where the mill spurs would now originate, have a three sided mill on the left side concealing the mainline below. Just a way of reducing the long concealed portion of the mainline, sort of break it up into parts, rather than one long hidden run. That might benefit the layout scenicly as well, since the left hand curve that comes out of the peninsula and into staging is pretty close to the vertically higher crossover double track above. If that curved portion was concealed, then traveled inside the mill as you turned south, I think it would make it easier to scenic the crossover as well.
You may have already considered these ideas and found them unworkable for one reason or another. Good luck and keep posting here.
- Douglas
You are right about the wasted space in the center. I can gain a little by swapping places--the engine house for the foundry in the center. I can't see what I'd gain from putting the tunnel under the factory. I'll think about that puzzle for a while.
DoughlessChip, I've followed your plans over recent years and always enjoyed your postings. First of all, welcome back. Nice plan now as well. My thoughts would be that the entire space could really benefit from narrowing that center peninsula somehow. And since you're working with 18 inch radius, the curve could support narrowing it. Just a few thoughts about it: Do you need to model all four sides of the sawmill? If you chose to model three, for example, you might be able to shove the entire mill to the right and have the tracks concealed within, like you did with your first plan. You could gain some valuable inches and then re-center the peninsula between the garage door and left aisle. Another thought w/b to try to have all of the buildings, such as the ore refinery, inside of the mainline somehow. Its a bit of a shame to gain space by using 18 inch radius curves, only to need a more wider peninsula to accomodate scenic elements. Maybe instead of having the mill spurs spread out a bit like a fan, have them closer together. That might allow you to fit the ore industry in there, or something different. Or more radical, could you mirror flip the mill, spurs, and refinery from right to left on the peninsula? That would possibly allow the right side concealed track to be open, from where the mill spurs would now originate, have a three sided mill on the left side concealing the mainline below. Just a way of reducing the long concealed portion of the mainline, sort of break it up into parts, rather than one long hidden run. That might benefit the layout scenicly as well, since the left hand curve that comes out of the peninsula and into staging is pretty close to the vertically higher crossover double track above. If that curved portion was concealed, then traveled inside the mill as you turned south, I think it would make it easier to scenic the crossover as well. You may have already considered these ideas and found them unworkable for one reason or another. Good luck and keep posting here.
You certainly made me think about that center. I was able to get the width of the aisle to 20" as you can see. The way I did that is to reverse where the foundry was with the engine house. I removed the old engine house (that I already have built) and now will scratch a smaller one in that will be of the same material as the sawmill. I also extended the tunnel as to make landscaping easier.
Well, the wife didn't like the idea of the layout crossing her laundry and revoked right-of-way. The following plan offers a few changes.
1) Staging has lost a couple trains capacity, but is more compact. It is on a slope so I cannot change or reverse engines without runaway.
2) Revised the yard and gained a classification track. Removed the roundhouse and put in a two stall engine house. The smallest yard ladder is a caboose track. The track to the left of the turntable lead is an RIP track. The track to the right of the turntable is for serviced, waiting and ready engines. The largest engine I have is my son's 2-8-0 Bachmann Spectrum, that really doesn't fit the era. However, I will build the turntable so it just fits. That will make it slightly smaller than the turntable shown.
SpaceMouseUsing XTrkCAD i can calculate the exact length of runs. In each case it is 323 inches (total coincidence.) On my last layout with my 2-6-0 engines, my smallest, I was able to pull 6-10 cars up a 3.2 % grade with a 18 inch radius. 180 degree turn at the top. I am very grade conscious. BTW: I'm more worried about the geared steam getting the empties up the 4% hill. The Riverossi Heisler can't pull squat and will be relegated to switching the sawmill. But I'm worried about the re-motored MDC Climax A and Bachmann Spectrum Shay, neither of which I've ever tested.
Unless you have removed a lot of weight from your MDC Climax or used a different gear ratio, it will out-pull nearly every other loco you own - especially on steep grades. I've seen several examples with 3-5 car trains on 8% grades on display layouts. Mine (in stock very noisy condition) did 10 cars up 4% around 18" curves without breaking a sweat.
The Bachmann Shay is a different story. It is notorious for stripping the plastic bevel gears on the line shafts. NWSL makes steel replacements. Get a set for when you strip yours, and then you Bmann Shay will be just fine - the limit will be it's weight, not the drive.
Some (but not all) Rivarossi Heislers don't pull well because of problems in the drive train - driver quartering, flash on gears and universals, poor mesh of universals and gears, slop in the axle slots, etc. With a tuned drive train, most have been able to get 3 cars up a 6% grade, with the limitation again being the light weight.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
SpaceMouse
I don't know if you're still inerested in suggestions, and putting myself at risk of being a complete idiot because I missed something obvious, but what is the main purpose of the track looping back in the NE corner to reappear at the E side of the sawmill? There seems to be a lot of hidden trackage that may cause grade issues with the hidden track, only to seemingly in crease the mainline run.
If you simply took the end of the runaround track near industry 10 and turned it south to meet the track that's on the E side of the sawmill, would that be compromising operations in any significant way? You could still have the furniture industry spur come off of the end of the runaround and head to where the buildings are now, and extend the eastern most logging camp track into the corner, since no loop track would be there.
Wouldn't this adjustment reduce the amount of hidden track, simplify construction, and diminish the issues with elevation and grade of the concealed tracks?
Doughless,
Now that you point that out it seems rather obvious. (That's why it pays to have other people look at your work.)
The deep inaccessible corners may well prove problematic, provide little benefit, and could be easily designed out, IMHO.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaThe deep inaccessible corners may well prove problematic, provide little benefit, and could be easily designed out, IMHO.
Not sure how and still maintain continuous running. I need 36 plus inches to turn the train. The next one will be a little better as far as reach goes.
I'm open to suggestion.
Okay, much simpler. More aisle space. Less track in dark territory and no turnouts underground. All one level except the mine/logging spur.
Excellent! Many times better! For all of the reasons you gave plus, IMO....
The center peninsula makes more sense in that the log pond better separates the sawmill scene from the rest of the layout. The ore refinery is relocated to an area where it is not competing for space with the sawmill.
This is strictly a personal choice, but you could also flip the direction of the turnout for industry 12 and put that spur and building where some of the small town scene buildings are now. Maybe make it part of the town's business district. Maybe make it the lumber yard and swap their locations. Again, just a personal decision.
Far fewer headaches with this version and seamingly more realistic to scenic.
Already made a lot of the changes. I dropped the furniture factory and made it part of the foundry since they are similar structures. I moved the lumber yard into the sawmill area. It will sell the mill's lumber but will need to bring in hardwoods, etc. The sawmill processes redwood.
The station moved back to it's original position.
I also simplified the industrial area near the yard.
My wheels are turning on this plan so I'll offer another thought. The plan is much sleeker than before. So, it seems like there s/b a way to improve the access to the upper left corner. The NE corner is less problematic since there is only one track and cookie cutter construction should allow access from beneath.
To me, the NE corner is crying out to be the logging camp (with the tracks within 30 inches of the edge). Having the switchbacks reach that point, which could be the highest point on the layout and would be the farthest away from the industrial area, makes geographic sense to me. Relocating the tracks from the spot numbered 4 over to the NE corner might allow you to shove the curved portion of the mainline(s) and benchwork up closer to the walls and improve access to the NW corner. I'm having trouble visualizing how the switchbacks would work, however. Maybe have one of the legs of the switchback cross over the mainlines with a bridge/trestle, which could add some more drama to the layout. Or, perhaps curve the track near the Pipe more towards the station and run it over the mainline near the foundry peninsula, where the track curves back up north. Of course, relocating the camp would mean you would have to drop the small business district scene from the layout, which may be tough to do if you really want that element.
You may also find it a bit cramped where numbers 7,8,and 9 are. Maybe relocate the switch that heads to staging so it originates off of the logging camp branch would gain some space there. Maybe at least move the tunnel portal down closer to the switch.
Or maybe move the funky curved staging track that's near the orange dot so it meets up with industry 9 spur instead. Then, if you were willing to use building flats along the wall and an industrial scene backdrop, you could locate the industry tracks along the wall and gain scenic depth in the process. The logging branch track could be where tracks 7 or 8 are now.
Sort of rambling now, but maybe something here strikes you as being an improvement. I think somehow that left side could be a bit more efficient and improve access to the NW corner.
Good Luck
I'm not sure I follow you this time, Doughless.
Today, I thought I'd mess around with Phase II (or maybe phase IIl). Phase II represents the area around Gilroy, CA, although nothing remotely like the prototype. Just like Rock Ridge could be one of the Redwood Mills fed by the narrow gauge roads around Santa Cruz.
At any rate, I found the large produce distributors fascinating. In the early 1900's there were dozens of them in Gilroy. They were a major source of trade for the Southern Pacific--represented by the staging tracks.
Phase III, climbing to about 18" above Phase II, would be the logging camp spur. This is the reason I picked this area. The idea of an inch and half tall train winding through 36" redwoods and 27" Douglas Firs is the reason I picked this era and location.
Anyway, this is a really rough draft of the produce trade of the era.
Do you realy need that much staging?
The short answer is, you never have enough staging.
Probably not. We'll see how it shapes up. There is roughly room for 12-15 8-car trains.
Staging can increase the workload of the Phase II yard. Cars can come from staging as if they are shipments from other produce distributors. They can then be sent either east or West on the SP. If I have the space for crews, I can make use of the staging. If not, I can store cool trains stuff on them.
I was thinking of more destinations.
I have been following up on this thread with a lot of interest. I like the way your track plan develops. I did not really like the first couple of ideas, but did not comment on it, as I am not too deep into operation. They were a little too crowded for my taste - too difficult to follow each track. Your latest version is much sleeker and confirms nicely my motto "less is more".
rrebellI was thinking of more destinations.
It is still early. I can't see starting Phase II for 3 years. In Santa Cruz two tracks went out onto the wharf. From the wharf was shipped lumber to the Orient and and produce all over. Another business I found that I thought was cool was a laundry operation. I am still trying to figure out why they needed two tracks for a laundry.
There was also a sugar industry.
How that will translate into destinations will have a lot to do how I actually spend my time on the layout in phase 1.
Sir Madog Chip,I have been following up on this thread with a lot of interest. I like the way your track plan develops. I did not really like the first couple of ideas, but did not comment on it, as I am not too deep into operation. They were a little to crowded for my taste - too difficult to follow each track. Your latest version is much sleeker and confirms nicely my motto "less is more".
I have been following up on this thread with a lot of interest. I like the way your track plan develops. I did not really like the first couple of ideas, but did not comment on it, as I am not too deep into operation. They were a little to crowded for my taste - too difficult to follow each track. Your latest version is much sleeker and confirms nicely my motto "less is more".
Thanks. I tend to try to get as much as I can into a layout -- over-crowding my druthers. Once I make them fit, I start stream-lining, trying to make it as simple as possible. I keep the plan on my desk and during breaks at work, simplify and simplify some more.