Well, I regained right-of-way in my basement. I know you guys have seen a million plans from me on this subject, but I think the time has come to actually build. Please let me know if you see anything I am missing.
A couple of notes:
The top yard track is a caboose track.
The 4% grade leads to the staging that simulates the lumber cutting operation.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
When you ask for comments on "glaring" problems, then to me that means you want to hear about what sticks out, and shouts "Alert!". To me, what jumps out at me is the lack of scenery space, considering what you intend to fit in. I commend you on developing a plan that locates not only the buildings but also the roads and streams... not everybody goes to that level of envisioning, but I believe that it can really pay off. However, I think you have underestimated the "footprint" of these elements, like the width of the stream course (it needs to be wider than the shorelines), the need for shoulders on the roads and preferably curves of a certain minimum radius. For cars and trucks to navigate a road, it needs curves of at least, say, 40-foot radius (centerline); you might cheat this a little bit, but even a 4" radius (real dimensions) would feel a lot more natural than the hard right angle you've shown.
How might you achieve these goals? If it were me, I'd consider giving up a siding or two. But you could also just do some things such as let the stream go into a culvert and the road can wiggle over it; in the real world, this happens often, as the road follows the stream course and the old stream just gets buried. You might also elevate the roadway and have it cross the tracks by bridging above, rather than at grade.
That's what jumps out at me. I so often see great layouts compromised scenically because of a lack of sufficient space given over to the scenery elements - they end up with train-height retaining walls everywhere, or unrelenting cliff faces, or any of the other standard tricks to deal with the tight proximities. But these features are nowhere near as common in the real world, and so no matter how skillfully done, the scene just doesn't look real.
Thanks for the observations. From what I presented I can see your concerns.
However, the cars and trucks are in this layout are horses and wagons. At your suggestion I will smooth out the curves in the roads a little.
The long straight track above the roundhouse is a trestle with the actual elevations in the corners and around the pipe, and although they are a little steep in places, they will be covered with trees. The upper right corner is a also a trestle above a canyon and falls.
The lower right area will be lifted off my old layout. You can see how I handled the "retaining wall problem."
The Rock Ridge rides again!
1. Lots of places with a lot of track in small areas, potentially at different elevations.
2. The right hand blob has very minimal tail room since everything is a switchback.
3. Why all the curly Q's in the blobs? If you reversed the switches in the main on the leads, you could straighten out the leads and simplify the tracks, possibly having more room for industries.
4. Lumber branch has no operation, just a straight pull and shove. Wake me up when we get there.
5. The only runaround outside the yard is on the liftout section which means that during operation it will HAVE to be a duck under.
6. No station at the main yard? I would lose the road along the front and put a station there .
7. Why all the roads connecting all the town sites? Lose all the bridges and connecting roads. Why take the train when its clerrly a 10 minute walk from one end of the layout to the other.
8. You have a HUGE lumber mill with only one track serving the mill and no obvious log dump to feed it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My comments:
dehusmanThe Rock Ridge rides again! 1. Lots of places with a lot of track in small areas, potentially at different elevations.
Yes. Long live Malcom (Joking )
2. The right hand blob has very minimal tail room since everything is a switchback. 3. Why all the curly Q's in the blobs? If you reversed the switches in the main on the leads, you could straighten out the leads and simplify the tracks, possibly having more room for industries
3. Why all the curly Q's in the blobs? If you reversed the switches in the main on the leads, you could straighten out the leads and simplify the tracks, possibly having more room for industries
As mentioned before, the old town of Rock Ridge from the previous layout is being dumped in the lower right blob. The track, in this case, is fitting the landscape. There is a mountain in the way of the reversing the turnout. Not ideal, but hey, there it is.
Lumber comes in different lengths, thicknesses and grades and as such is stacked in different areas of the yard. A single box car may have to be moved to 5 or more locations in the yard to fill an order. The lumber yard master will be given orders to fill for different clients and spending on the size of the order a single or multiple cars will be "pushed and shoved" to various locations. It will make quite a puzzle for the yard master to continually leap frog the cars.
Yes, it presents a problem with staging mostly and bathroom breaks. Eventually staging will have block detectors and cameras. Not fitting with the era but convenient. However, the yard and the lumber mill can be worked without the bridge in place. All areas can be worked from the pit.
6. No station at the main yard? I would lose the road along the front and put a station there . 7. Why all the roads connecting all the town sites? Lose all the bridges and connecting roads. Why take the train when its clerrly a 10 minute walk from one end of the layout to the other.
The roads link the town because it is one town--all three operational areas. I'm considering whether I need the station at the mill, although at one time (before the yard was built) it would have been a necessity.
Yes. The log dump would be on the turn going in. The yard switcher would have to work around the incoming log trains.
You have made me think about it. I pictured 3 to 4 trains in per day and one train out. I'll have to do a board-foot calculation to see if lumber in - boards out/mill capacity is a match. I have a feeling that the mill can outproduce the lumber in-lumber out capacity. In which case I should shrink the mill (or not big mills look cool.)
Thanks again Dave. Wonderful insights.
odaveMy comments: The pit width, center-right, narrows from ~24" to ~12". I'm not sure if you're built like a bean pole or not, but working in that wedge, especially since there's yard work involved on that end, might be uncomfortable.
In staging, would a curved turnout buy you some more track length on the "lower" yard? Or for that matter, instead of having the ladders close up the left-hand sides of each, can you increase the staging loop radius and loop all three tracks around in parallel? That might give you more options on train lengths & serial staging.
These are great ideas. I built the staging yard for the capacity of work I envisioned, but I can also see room for expansion along the lines of your thinking.
Thanks.
Perhaps this is a strange observation, but is there something preventing you from swapping rooms? The one on the left will not have an active "hallway" or the garage door to worry about, and is a bit deeper (top to bottom of the picture), a plus. That may cut down on the dust you could get from the garage foot-traffic: another plus, and allows for a junkroom (oops,,, storage space) by that door. The extra space vertically will fix the squeezing pit area near the cattle pens. Mirror-reversing the layout's staging can put it into a clean closet in that storage area, and shouldn't be a problem since you are already considering cctv monitoring anyway.
Just a couple of thoughts. Have fun, George
George,
Yes, the staging is a small shelf that goes over the washer/dryer and sink.
SpaceMouse Lumber comes in different lengths, thicknesses and grades and as such is stacked in different areas of the yard. A single box car may have to be moved to 5 or more locations in the yard to fill an order. The lumber yard master will be given orders to fill for different clients and spending on the size of the order a single or multiple cars will be "pushed and shoved" to various locations. It will make quite a puzzle for the yard master to continually leap frog the cars.
My comment wasn't about the mill, it was about the branch. There are no spurs off of it, no sidings, just one long, slow shove up the hill and one long slow trip down the hill. You could just as easily automate it where once the log train passes the ore mine, you just push a button and it just runs up to staging and then stops in the track, untouched by human hands. Same for a loaded train, it just runs out of staging and then stops short of the ore mill switch.
How do you plan to operate it? That is how do you plan car flow?
If I am a car of cut lumber going to west staging, how do I get from the mill to west staging? How did the empty get to the mill? What train do I ride? How do I get on the train, what end is the engine on? Am I switched at the yard? How do I get set out at the yard, how do I get picked up? What train picks me up, what train sets me out?
Same questions for a car going to east staging.
Looks to me like you aren't going to be able to support more than two trains on the layout at any given time (ignoring anything on the logging branch). Thinking about operations, I withdraw my suggestion about the station at the yard and suggest instead you replace the road with a siding. The absolutely most critical constraint on the layout is the liftout siding. The use of that siding will completely define the operation. The second most critical spot is the double ended track at the yard. How you schedule trains through those two spots (since both are dual use for switching and passing trains) will determine the flows on the layout.
Ah yes, the pitfalls of recycling an old layout. You gain time and convienience and sacrifice flexibility and opportunity. I understand that you are recycling the former layout, however operationally you might get a better operation if you flip the design of the blobs and have the industrial branches break off near the yard, making the liftout siding a pure siding with nothing attached to it, except maybe the logging branch. The other implication of that sceme is that you could switch the entire city except for through trains and bringing down ore and log trains, with the liftout removed.
dehusman SpaceMouse Lumber comes in different lengths, thicknesses and grades and as such is stacked in different areas of the yard. A single box car may have to be moved to 5 or more locations in the yard to fill an order. The lumber yard master will be given orders to fill for different clients and spending on the size of the order a single or multiple cars will be "pushed and shoved" to various locations. It will make quite a puzzle for the yard master to continually leap frog the cars. My comment wasn't about the mill, it was about the branch. There are no spurs off of it, no sidings, just one long, slow shove up the hill and one long slow trip down the hill. You could just as easily automate it where once the log train passes the ore mine, you just push a button and it just runs up to staging and then stops in the track, untouched by human hands. Same for a loaded train, it just runs out of staging and then stops short of the ore mill switch.
That sounds cool although I cannot see much advantage to it. Like you said it is just a dull run and not much to it. We are talking saving the train operator maybe 10 seconds labor. Still having automatically terminate in staging might be worthwhile.
How do you plan to operate it? That is how do you plan car flow? If I am a car of cut lumber going to west staging, how do I get from the mill to west staging? How did the empty get to the mill? What train do I ride? How do I get on the train, what end is the engine on? Am I switched at the yard? How do I get set out at the yard, how do I get picked up? What train picks me up, what train sets me out? Same questions for a car going to east staging.
All cars in and out both directions will come from the yard. Trains are limited to 6-8 cars due to engine size.
I envision a maximum of three operators. Two in the pit and one outside running the trains to and from staging and the logging train. The latter will be more or less a thankless job and something I will do if I ever host an operating session. As it stand I know of no one really interested. The club in my town is simply not interested in ops-old timers who bring in their engines and run laps and gab. Two trains is fine. You are right about the siding though. Two trains running will probably be all that can be run anyway.
IT will probably be just me, or on a rare occasion, me and my son. He is autistic and doesn't focus on tasks well. He will most likely just want to run laps with his Hogwart's train.
As mentioned before, the old town of Rock Ridge from the previous layout is being dumped in the lower right blob. The track, in this case, is fitting the landscape. There is a mountain in the way of the reversing the turnout. Not ideal, but hey, there it is. Ah yes, the pitfalls of recycling an old layout. You gain time and convienience and sacrifice flexibility and opportunity. I understand that you are recycling the former layout, however operationally you might get a better operation if you flip the design of the blobs and have the industrial branches break off near the yard, making the liftout siding a pure siding with nothing attached to it, except maybe the logging branch. The other implication of that sceme is that you could switch the entire city except for through trains and bringing down ore and log trains, with the liftout removed.
You are right. I should not limit my thinking by reusing my old layout. A lot of it is my wife wanting me to save it. She doesn't want to waste the money I've spent.
Still, reversing the industries to feed from the yard seems to lose one direction of staging. I've been playing with the idea and so far I can't make it work-not to say that I won't.
Problems is way too strong a word, I like challenges better. The only thing that I noticed is the tracks leaning to the staging area behind the roundhouse where they make their way through the wall. What the reach back to the farthest point? If something happens to go wrong like a derailment no that it ever happens any more in model railroading are you going to be able to reach that with out having to do any acrobatics? It appears that the stair case is open underneath so ace's there shouldn't be an issue. One last question what it the height of your bench work? The higher up you go the shorter your reach is, ask me how I know this. All in all looks like a plan that will afford you a lot of interesting running and scenery opportunities.
Nothing "fatal" as far as operations, but ...
The layout is extremely "busy," packed with structures and track yet the industrial environment of sawmill, lumbering, and mining belong in wide-open spaces. The track plan is more consistent with a compact, urban area with industries quite different than planned. Bottom line, it looks like a model railroad, not a model of a railroad. I would have made more compromises, leaving things out (like "do I really need a yard?"), but our preferences seem to be quite different.
Mark
Mark,
I hear what you are saying. Ideally a lot of things would be different like more time, money and space. I have explored quite a few options before getting down to building. I wanted to go with operations and with a prototype. I really wanted to do the California Western around 1917, and the interchange with the NWP but the operational possibilities were limited. I then researched Nevada Valley and the railroads of the Santa Cruz area. I was able to come up with plans that almost worked, but they took up the entire basement. I lost trackage rights when my wife developed a new technique in her art that required making a mess and literally had to tear out the benchwork I had built.
The idea of a small Western town sustained by a big industry that it is served by a railroad is very appealing. I like the idea of small trains and very big trees.
BTW: The huge lumber facility owned by the Union Lumber Company is surrounded by the town of Fort Bragg. Sandwiched in between is the yard. That is not what I am modeling, Just showing there is a prototype to justify about anything.
Union Lumber 1911:
Alleghany,
Yeah, I know. The compromise is that I didn't put any turnouts there. The upper right trestle is also a potential probelm. I just have to make sure to lay good, always clean track eh? I can get to it using ladders and acrobatics.
The height will be 48 inches.
Lee
The challenges/opportunities here reminds one of the classic Givens & Druthers exercise of John Armstrong inspiration.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
tgindyThe challenges/opportunities here reminds one of the classic Givens & Druthers exercise of John Armstrong inspiration.
Since this isn't a really a "design' excercise, the plan is based on recycled layout so there really isn't anything to design or change. Its all pretty well fixed.
How about taking the Rock Ridge end of the layout and rotating it 90° counterclockwise. Flip flop the staging tracks and put them at the right end of the layout, then connect those sections with a stretch of track with buildings along it, or filled with scenery. You end up with more layout, AND you don't have to worry about someone flying in through the door leading out to the garage and slamming it into Rock Ridge. Plus, you'll be able to open the door all the way. Just a couple of suggestions
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
dehusman Since this isn't a really a "design' excercise, the plan is based on recycled layout so there really isn't anything to design or change. Its all pretty well fixed.
IT is not like I haven't explored other options. Only the lower right blob has any part of the old layout.
But since tearing out the old 4x8 Rock Ridge and Train City, I've studied and drawn plans for:
The California Western, Fort Bragg to Willis with a fair chunk of the Northwestern Pacific in 1917. It was eventually rejected because pretty much all the engines of the CW would have to be custom built.
The Nevada Valley Narrow Gauge with connection to the SP. Eventually rejected because there was not enough operational capacity to warrant an op session of any length.
I had pretty much settled on modeling the SP in the Santa Cruz area around 1905. There was very nice produce shipping trade as well as several large lumber operations. One thing kinda different was a laundry operation I've never seen modeled before. After I had about 1/3 of the benchwork done, my wife's art career took a turn and she needed floor space in the basement and the benchwork had to come down. It took about 2 years to consider starting over.
My current plan, Rock Ridge 1905, has a fair amount of stuff to do in the space I am allowed--and should look like it was meant to be this way.
Here's the Santa Cruz benchwork:
Lee 1234The staging area in the other room bothers me.
why? It is completely visually isolated and out of the way.
I pretty much have everything I want. If anything, I'd like more visuals of big trees and small steam. I'd like to see my little moguls running through 3 ft tall redwoods. There is a possibility or expansion someday on the other side of the staging area and building a proper lumber camp.
Medina,
I have to admit that I can't figure out what you are suggesting for me to do.
Everything is small in scale except the lumber mill, I would scale that back, also any duck-under or lift bridge is a problem and would be better eliminated, continuous running can be had with a hidden connection.
SpaceMouse Lee 1234The staging area in the other room bothers me.why? It is completely visually isolated and out of the way.
Okay, I'm with you.
I plan to set up a visual monitoring using an old computer and camera. That will do until I get block detection--which I see as way down the road.
Yes, it will probably be a lone wolf operation, but then again, bringing things in from staging will be an occasional thing. Most of the operations occur on the layout.
Through trains will just run the laps if i desire. But if three people are working the layout, one will stay outside the pit.
SpaceMouse Medina, I have to admit that I can't figure out what you are suggesting for me to do.
What I'm suggesting is that you build the Rock Ridge end of your layout on the left side of the room, and put the staging and turnaround on the right side of the room. The staging run would still run along the same wall and under the stairs. But, by swapping ends, you'd have more room at the staging end of the layout. My main concern was that door coming in from the garage. In the picture that you showed, the door doesn't open fully, because it's right up against the layout. I see this as a future disaster. WHAM!
Okay, as you can see the plan is completely different. I lost the lift-out bridge, but lost one industry, the retail lumber yard, in doing so. I tried to incorporate as many thing as you guys said when I redesigned it. It is growing on me, although I don't like the idea of so much hidden track. Dave, the town or Rock Ridge in the upper right is not the one from the original layout although it is similar,
Notes:
1) The Saw Mill is 4 1/2 inches below the rest of the layout. Grades are just under 2% between levels and on the connecting track in staging.
2) No turnouts are are more than 30" reach but 2 or them in the lower left on the industry spur will be tricky if they need to be worked on. I'm aware that there will be landscape out of my reach without a climbing structure.
3) As shown, the passageway into the pit is 15 inches. I know I can get at least 18" when I build it.
4) The yard has 3 classification tracks. On the right is the RIP track and the caboose track.
SpaceMouse Okay, as you can see the plan is completely different. ...It is growing on me, although I don't like the idea of so much hidden track.
Okay, as you can see the plan is completely different. ...It is growing on me, although I don't like the idea of so much hidden track.
The plan appears more "relaxed." That's good.
I'd double-track the hidden line. This would increase the layout's train capacity. Also, hidden trackage is useful for "parking" a train for a while, particularly for you're single-handed crew. While a train is parked, you can move on to another train, and later return to the parked train. This will also make the apparent "run" to be longer. A strategically-placed TV camera covering some of the hidden track would be useful in following a train's progress. (Did I just hear the "bump, bump, bump" of a derailed car?)
Much more user friendly!