hey everyone I'm planning a second level/staging yard on my layout and found a helix is the only way to do this. I've done the math but it doesn't seem right! I want to know the grade from level to level. So before i go buy $100 worth of lumber can someone make sure i have this right?helix size is 25" radius with 2" inbetween each level SO....Diameter is 2 X 25" = 50" Circumference is pi(3.14) X Diameter(50") = 157.08" Grade (Slope) is 100 X Rise(2") over Run(157.08) = 1.27% gradeto anyone that knows math does this sound correct? I'm rusty on algebra and doesn't seem steep enough....any help is appriciated!!!!
thanks,Stu
You hit it, or as close as you need to.
OTOH, a two inch rise per turn leaves precious little 'reach-in' room for correcting OOPS situations, or even cleaning the track. How thick is your subgrade/roadbed/ties/rail package? You have to subtract that from two inches to get your actual railhead-to-overhead clearance. Then measure the height of an auto rack, or a loaded double-stack with hi-cube containers...
Your math is accurate. Your planned vertical dimension...???
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 2 helices and a train elevator)
I take it this is N scale? Even so, 2" is very tight.
For HO, 4" is the minimum, but then 25" radius is probably too small as the grade + friction of curves will cause stringlining -- derailments to the inside of the curve.
See http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/130908/1473626.aspx#1473626
Cheers,
Colin
Colin 't Hart Frösön, Sweden http://www.flickr.com/photos/cthart/
I will just reiterate what other have said about the 2" between levels I have a hidden staging yard under one of my towns on the layout and I have 6" clearance between levels and if it were not that I can access it from tow sides 6" would not even be enough for a long reach. When we copied Cliff Powers Helix from his MA&G we raised the clearance from 3" what Cliff used/recommended to 4-1/2" just for the oops factor. Another friend just went to http://www.easyhelix.com and copied their dimensions which are posted on their website.
traingeek087hey everyone I'm planning a second level/staging yard on my layout and found a helix is the only way to do this. I've done the math but it doesn't seem right! I want to know the grade from level to level. So before i go buy $100 worth of lumber can someone make sure i have this right?helix size is 25" radius with 2" inbetween each level SO....Diameter is 2 X 25" = 50" Circumference is pi(3.14) X Diameter(50") = 157.08" Grade (Slope) is 100 X Rise(2") over Run(157.08) = 1.27% gradeto anyone that knows math does this sound correct? I'm rusty on algebra and doesn't seem steep enough....any help is appriciated!!!!
The math is fine the idea is suspect. 2" between turns means that railhead to railhead you will have 2". Subtract the thickness of the track, the thickness of the helix material and the thickness of any splice plates between sections of the helix.
If your track is 3/16 high and you are using 1/4 in plywood, that means you clearance is 2" -minus 7/16, leaving 1 9/16" inch clearance for your equipment and hands. If you have anything taller than 1 1/2" or your quality control on the spacing or the material warps more than a couple 16ths of an inch you could have a non clearing situation. If you have splice plates over joints, that could take out more space if the splice plates intrude over the tracks.
You also have to take into consideration access of your hands. Can you reach in to rerail equipment? Can you reach in to lay track, solder feeders, repair track?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
In addition to the rail head to rail head comments above, remember too that your 25" radius is the centerline of the track. You'll need to add at least 2 or 3 inches to the radius to allow for total track and overhang clearances and the spacers you may use to support the levels. Your actual diameter should be more like 54" or so. Not an issue unless you're trying to fit the helix into a fixed space?
Robby Modeling the L&N CV Subdivision in 1978 http://s226.photobucket.com/albums/dd247/robby-ky/CV%20Subdivision%20Layout/
it's fitting into a Very tight space. it will be single track-no roadbed, I want to go as small a distance between the levels to reduce the grade. I model 69' so twin stack containers were not around then. It will be all exposed so reaching in for derailments is not a problem, and i will lay the track each level i stack. I have 5' (60") to work with, so that means the largest the helix can be is 58" or so. I may have to increase the space between to 3", but I do not want a grade that's steeper than 2%, even tho the longest train I can run is around 25 feet, and that's not all common.I have not decided on what material to use. I have seen some people splice together 2 pieces of 1/8" masonite for support, but I hate cutting masonite. My benchwork is 1/2 plywood which is easy to cut, but once again I did not factor in the height of the material between levels. I guess i'm gonna have to go stare at it for some time more till an idea pops in my head =)
dehusman Can you reach in to lay track, solder feeders, repair track?
Can you reach in to lay track, solder feeders, repair track?
Laying track and attaching electrical feeders should be done as the helix is constructed from bottom to top. Ready access from the top is a necessity for laying track.
Mark
Allegheny2-6-6-6Another friend just went to http://www.easyhelix.com and copied their dimensions which are posted on their website.
Another friend just went to http://www.easyhelix.com and copied their dimensions which are posted on their website.
Interesting = Spacer Tubes at Q#7's FAQs...
7. What is the spacing between decks?
Roadbed to Roadbed - Standard 4-inch spacer tubes (HO).
Thus, N Scale should be at least 2.2 inches.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Just a thought, What if you staggered the loops? (One inside, the next one outside, until you reached your desired elevation. I think it would improve your clearances, and allow you to install a solid roadbed. You would only have to thin the roadbed where it crossed over itself. Hope this helps.
Steam
If you go with 3" difference level to level, then you'd be right at 2% grade. And since you're using 0.5" thick plywood, you would need spacers of 2.5" in height... which could be made easily by cutting lengths of 1x3 which is a uniform 2.5" in width. It's still not a lot of room for dealing with oops, but should still allow you to get your fingers around a derailed car, for instance. Keep in mind that the plywood isn't going to want to warp much, so it would be best to install it in short sections, like no more than 90 degrees of curvature at a time (60 would be better). Don't cut out a full circle and expect it to deform into a proper spiral.
I'm still brainstorming about the idea. I have considered tearing out half of my layout (8x14 size), to accomidate a helix just for improved operation, but think there has to be a better way of going about this....
Heres a question, the spacing you are discussing implies N scale, but your forum name is "traingeek087" and 87 is usually associated with HO. Are you desigining this for HO or N scale?
If it is HO then less than 2 inches is not feasible for normal standard gauge.
I have crammed many things into tight spaces that should not have been, but to be satisfied in doing it-its not pheasable. and it is HO scale. I am going back to the drawing board, it appears a large section of the unfinished layout will be dismantled and redone.
Unless I'm missing something here, your "helix" is only one loop long, so clearance isn't an issue except at the point where it reaches the upper level. Simply "detour" either the upper or lower end of the grade away from the other. What you've described is better done as a "nolix" although all it really is is a curve on a grade.
While helices are very useful for gaining altitude, they're not always the best solution and use up a lot of space that can sometimes be better utilised with an exposed grade.
I gained about 20" of elevation by making a series of horseshoe curves on a peninsula, opening up operational and scenic possibilities not afforded by hidden trackage (although the latter benefit has largely yet to be realised).
Wayne
Have you considered a train elevator? One can be made out of steel stud material for a lot less than a hundred bucks, and its footprint is only its length (the longest possible being the length of your longest hidden tangent) and its width (about six inches if behind a vertical backdrop or inside a vertical view-block.)
As a bonus, if the tangent is part of a main line on the lower level, it isn't difficult to arrange a second steel stud trough (with track in it) to bridge the gap when the elevator is at the top of its travel. That way, there will always be track in place except during the rather brief interval when the elevator is in transition from one level to the other. When the elevator drops down, the safety track drops into the elevator pit. You could even use it to access a below-the-main-level staging area if your benchwork will allow you to build one.
Since my (as yet unbuilt, but concept tested and found adequate) elevator is intended to close the loop in an empties in/loads out situation at my top of the mountain colliery, I don't need that safety track. I will always have a locomotive on the open end of the 'car,' the other end being closed. The design of the 'car' is the same as the design of the cassettes I use for off-layout staging - in fact, I'll probably use one of them to build it. (One 10 foot 2 x 3 nominal steel stud yields 2 each 56 inch cassettes plus a leftover that can be used elsewhere on my steel stud empire.)
E-mail me a snail mail address if you would like a copy of my (admittedly crude) elevator design drawings.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with a train elevator.
The layout is a 14X8 foot oval. 2.5ft wide all the way around. Its 58" tall. I wanted to use a helix to reach down to a second level and make a staging yard, maybe 38" tall or such, but as we all understand I cannot fit this into the layout. Doing a grade that goes 20" would not fit into the space I have. Maybe i'm trying to have too much layout in too little space?
traingeek087The layout is a 14X8 foot oval. 2.5ft wide all the way around. Its 58" tall. I wanted to use a helix to reach down to a second level and make a staging yard, maybe 38" tall or such, but as we all understand I cannot fit this into the layout. Doing a grade that goes 20" would not fit into the space I have. Maybe i'm trying to have too much layout in too little space?
Well, for a staging yard, you wouldn't need to drop it 20" - mine is to a second level of the layout, so I needed some decent separation to allow for the lower level scenery. However, I accomplished the climb in about 45', although 3" of the height difference was achieved by dropping the lower level of the layout. You've got roughly the same distance around your layout and could easily drop down 6" or so without eating up too much real estate. The only issue might be some of the current layout's framing members that could be in the way wherever you choose to start the grade down.
It really does sound like you should try a train elevator.
traingeek087 The layout is a 14X8 foot oval. 2.5ft wide all the way around. Its 58" tall. I wanted to use a helix to reach down to a second level and make a staging yard, maybe 38" tall or such, but as we all understand I cannot fit this into the layout. Doing a grade that goes 20" would not fit into the space I have. Maybe i'm trying to have too much layout in too little space?
For staging you really need only 6-8 inches clearance UNLESS you want "live" staging, a fiddle yard where you can manually reconfigure the trains, in that case you probably need 8-12" clearance to safely lift stuff over cars in the foreground. Also you have to think clearance, not only railhead to railhead. So depending on how the benchwork on the main level is built, that could mean anything between 8-16 " deck spacing.
You also have to think about your benchwork. Since this is being added as an afterthought, I would bet that you have some sort of open grid or tabletop benchwork design. In many cases that considerably limits your options on how you "excavate" that first 4 inches below the main level.
Depending on how your benchwork is configured, an alternative is to put a large "dogbone" under the layout with a loop at both ends and the connecting tracks along the inside or outside. Basically a helix stretched out to a lo-o-o-o-ong oval instead of a circle. That way you can get tight radius in the loops and a lesser grade. Each lap of the dogbone would be about 20 ft or so. At a 2% grade each lap would be 4.8 inches down. So lets say you have 4" thick benchwork on the main level, and want 8" clearance, that would mean about 2.5 laps on the dogbone helix.
There are multiple ways to incoporate staging without a helix. The idea of elevators is attractive, but I know of only three operating successfully and reliably over the long term (there are probably more). I do know of multiple failed train elevator attempts, including two failures of a commercially-available option, which did not reliably return to the exact deck heights of multiple decks consistently enough for hands-off operation.
Not to say a reliable train elevator cannot be engineered by a person with the right skills and experience, but some examples indicate that it's not as trivial as some seem to suggest.
IMHO, ideally staging type and location should follow the layout concept in keeping with the available space, not be kludged on after-the-fact. But since we don't know the Original Poster's layout concept and haven't seen a sketch of the current layout and available space, giving advice at this point is just a shot in the dark.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I have been trying to get windows paint to work for me but Since my new computer has windows 7 i'm slow at figuring out how to run it. The fiddle yard idea was in my head. basically i am happy with my near 100ft mainline run, but where i had a yard planned ran into some clearance issues that i didn't take into consideration. so now I am looking at multi leveling it. Luckily i have not started scenery on one half of the layout so if i did change it, the process would be easier to do. I am wondering about this "elevator" idea....? not sure what that is.
tgindyAllegheny2-6-6-6Another friend just went to http://www.easyhelix.com and copied their dimensions which are posted on their website.Interesting = Spacer Tubes at Q#7's FAQs...7. What is the spacing between decks? Roadbed to Roadbed - Standard 4-inch spacer tubes (HO).Thus, N Scale should be at least 2.2 inches.
No not necessarily true, regarding this dimension scale does not apply to the construction of the helix, it's a generally accepted distance to gain access to trains while on the track and room enough to put them back on the track in the event of a derailment. I am not a giant of a guy more on the average side and I just measured the distance across the back of my hand and it's just about 4-1/2", Coincidence or not it's not just enough to get your hand in between the levels of the Helix but to be able to at least be able to place a car or cars back on the tracks. Try a little experiment and place two boards about 2.2 inches a part and see if yo can A: fit your hand in there and B: Take a freight car and see if back on the tracks, betcha you can't unless your a resident of munchkin land.
I just got a call this afternoon form a model railroading buddy who is building a new pike and admittedly sucks when it comes to building bench work, one heck of a good modeler.but a lousy carpenter. So he wants to contract my service and in his 3 level track plan is a double track helix. I intend to build it entirely in my shop and transport it to his basement in one piece. He has extra large access doors so clearance is not an issue. I can't wait to start building this thing as well as the rest of the bench work. I think if I bother to do the math the kid in the burger joint will be making more then me but what the heck.