fwright PRIO The question I had is simple, I apologize for not knowing a lot of the terminology. I built a large detailed HO layout, and just finished wiring it with simple DC with two mains and I have an old dual 12v power pack. I was going to use that, until it got difficult to only watch the train movement from one location. I still want to keep it simple. I want to be able to walk around the layout with remote control. I will be the only one using the layout, and I want to run two main lines at once. I am not into sound, but I want to put constant lighting in all my engines. I have quite a few engines, none with sound. Can I use the 12v DC dual power pack and get the Crest Train engineer containing one receiver and one transmitter, then get another receiver for my other main line. Thanks, Jim If the dual power pack was made by MRC, then it has 2 transformers. This is not really important, as you are not using common rail block wiring. I'm not familiar with the Crest product to know how much additional power is needed, but assuming your power pack is adequate for the 2 trains you run now, it should be adequate for the Crest - at least to start with. Another possibility is to start off powering one main from one side of your power pack, and a single receiver from the other side for the other main. Add the second receiver when you are ready. just my thoughts Fred W
PRIO The question I had is simple, I apologize for not knowing a lot of the terminology. I built a large detailed HO layout, and just finished wiring it with simple DC with two mains and I have an old dual 12v power pack. I was going to use that, until it got difficult to only watch the train movement from one location. I still want to keep it simple. I want to be able to walk around the layout with remote control. I will be the only one using the layout, and I want to run two main lines at once. I am not into sound, but I want to put constant lighting in all my engines. I have quite a few engines, none with sound. Can I use the 12v DC dual power pack and get the Crest Train engineer containing one receiver and one transmitter, then get another receiver for my other main line. Thanks, Jim
The question I had is simple, I apologize for not knowing a lot of the terminology. I built a large detailed HO layout, and just finished wiring it with simple DC with two mains and I have an old dual 12v power pack. I was going to use that, until it got difficult to only watch the train movement from one location.
I still want to keep it simple. I want to be able to walk around the layout with remote control. I will be the only one using the layout, and I want to run two main lines at once.
I am not into sound, but I want to put constant lighting in all my engines. I have quite a few engines, none with sound.
Can I use the 12v DC dual power pack and get the Crest Train engineer containing one receiver and one transmitter, then get another receiver for my other main line. Thanks, Jim
If the dual power pack was made by MRC, then it has 2 transformers. This is not really important, as you are not using common rail block wiring. I'm not familiar with the Crest product to know how much additional power is needed, but assuming your power pack is adequate for the 2 trains you run now, it should be adequate for the Crest - at least to start with.
Another possibility is to start off powering one main from one side of your power pack, and a single receiver from the other side for the other main. Add the second receiver when you are ready.
just my thoughts
Fred W
Fred, thanks, I have not used a dual pack or taken one apart in decades. The TE does not like common rail wiring and works better with filtered, regulated supplies, but will work from a typical power pack simply turned all the way up.
Sheldon
PRIO Thanks for the advice Sheldon. Again, I aplogize for the lack of terminology. I have two main lines, one side of the dual power pack for each main line. I only run one train (several engines together) on each line. I do not have any blocks. I have a couple cross overs to get from one main line to the other, but are double rail insulated. I have power to all track at all times on each dedicated main line, except I have many toggles to switch off the sidings. I enjoy constant lighting, will this be effected by any of the TE supplies. Thanks, Jim
Thanks for the advice Sheldon. Again, I aplogize for the lack of terminology. I have two main lines, one side of the dual power pack for each main line. I only run one train (several engines together) on each line. I do not have any blocks. I have a couple cross overs to get from one main line to the other, but are double rail insulated. I have power to all track at all times on each dedicated main line, except I have many toggles to switch off the sidings.
I enjoy constant lighting, will this be effected by any of the TE supplies. Thanks, Jim
Jim, The TE uses pulse width modulation to control the train. The motor sees this a DC, but it gives you very good slow speed. Because the pulses are 12 volts, lighting circuits see 12 volts as soon as you start to advance the throttle. So the lights come on right away, full brightness, before the train moves, and stay fully bright until you stop the train and reduce the trottle to zero.
Fred has informed us you dual pack may have two power supplies, so it can power two receivers. It is dificult to transition a train from one receiver to another, so a simple block system with two toggle switches would allow smooth movement from one main to the other, I could send you a simple drawing.
PRIOThe question I had is simple, I apologize for not knowing a lot of the terminology. I built a large detailed HO layout, and just finished wiring it with simple DC with two mains and I have an old dual 12v power pack. I was going to use that, until it got difficult to only watch the train movement from one location. I still want to keep it simple. I want to be able to walk around the layout with remote control. I will be the only one using the layout, and I want to run two main lines at once. I am not into sound, but I want to put constant lighting in all my engines. I have quite a few engines, none with sound. Can I use the 12v DC dual power pack and get the Crest Train engineer containing one receiver and one transmitter, then get another receiver for my other main line. Thanks, Jim
Jim, do the two mains interconnect with any crossovers?
Your dual pack can power one Train Engineer receiver. Your dual pack most likely has only one transformer inside, and each Train Engineer receiver needs a seperate power source.
You can use two recievers and switch back and forth on one transmitter, or get two of each and let each one be dedicated just like your dual pack, but now with wireless walk around.
CB radio power supplies work very well with the TE for HO.
Do have block wiring of any kind now with your dual pack?
Did you use common rail wiring?
With answers to these questions I can provide more help.
Kadee was proprietary but their patent ran out.
I would not switch from DCC to Crest for a couple of reasons. One, I don't want to see control systems fall into the hands of one company, like we have with MTH who wants to control all the shots, and second, also having a garden railroad, I felt the owner of the company has had a reputation in the G scale area of wanting to control all the marbles in his corner, something I would not be willing to contribute too. They drug their feet too long in the large scale as far as standards, couplers (I use Kadee G gauge couplers and converting the cars and diesels was a royal pain) being a good example.
Bob
enduringexpI am modelling HO. the Crest CRE-55000 is called the HO Train Engineer. It is relatively new and built specifically for HO. I have not used DCC, and know very little about it, so I don't know how the two would compare. I will not be running my trains on someone else's track, and others won't be using mine, so compatibility with other layouts is not a concern. Ease of operation and simplicity of installation would be the key. Because the operation is built using R/F, I would think no special wiring or layout changes are required, but as with most things, I want to research it to death to be sure I make the right choice for me. If anyone is interested, the site is http://www.aristocraft.com/catalog/crest/trainengineer/whitepaper/
I do not own a DCC system or a Crest system, so I am one of us who is only partially informed. After reading this forum and other info about DCC, after a while, I tend to see patterns: Comments focus on problems modelers have had with their systems, primarily caused not knowing enough about the system they were buying before they bought it. With DCC, that's easy to do. Issues include: the need for boosters, or discovering the locomotives they own are power hogs, or their turnouts are incompatible, or they maybe now need a separate programming track or all locomotives will be programmed the same if on the mainline, programming CV's to really get the loco to behave the way they want, or discovering an annoying electronic buzzing noise after the decoder is installed, etc... For somebody like you and me, there are many unknowns to DCC, and it seems like the only way to really know what you need is to first buy a system, then figure out solutions to issues as you go; issues you never conceived would be issues. I'm sure its wonderful, but for what I want, all of the features it offers is probably overkill.
Judge for yourself how you plan to operate your layout.
If you are looking to independently control the speed of several locomotives, whether mu'd or not, over a distance that requires you to walk with the train, the Crest system with the little receivers sounds like it fits the bill better than DCC. And if you only want to control a couple of locos, in separate blocked locations, like maybe having a dedicated industry or yard switcher, the more basic system seems like it would work well. And Sheldon mentioned that lighting is not an issue like I thought it would be, so that's another plus.
I'm sure there are unknowns with the system you are considering, but I tend to agree with what I think you are thinking. The RF technology seems like a less complicated way to achieve independent throttle control, hence, the unknown issues should be fewer.
I wish more modelers would use Crest systems so the products would achieve the critical mass they need to be sustained and supported by Aristo-Craft.
- Douglas
I don't know about that but Radioisotope batteries can last 10-20 years, and there is research bringing them to the home right now but they will be pricey, air powered (not a typo) last about 8 times currant batteries and will be with us in home size in 5 or less years, commercial versions of both already in production.
EM-1I'm not sure how much the Aristo/Crest system costs, or anything about the size of the package,
EM-1, there is little reason to go to all that work, Aristo Craft has done it and the prices are reasonable.
The 10 channel, 10 amp Train Engineer, designed for trackside use retails for $240. The receiver is about the size of a small power pack. Onboard G scale receivers are about 4"x4".
The HO Train Engineer uses a transmitter that looks the same but is on 75 Mhz. It sells for $250 retail with one onboard receiver. 6 packs of receivers retail for $210.00 and are ready to wire up like a DCC decoder and are similar in size.
The NEW 2.4 Ghz Revolution sells for $300 and comes with a G scale onboard receiver that can also be used as a trackside receiver in any scale. I understand that smaller HO receivers are in developement.
All the onboard systems will allow the use of track power or battery power.
All of thes products are available and discounted the usual industry amounts at places like TrainWorld, etc.
I purchased my 8 Track Side 10 channel models before the recent price increase from Train World paying only about $130 each. And purchased suitable regulated power supplies for only $25.00 each.
Direct radio definately has a future in all scales, batteries may take a while, and my trackside control system also works well for those who do not want to modifiy their locos.
I have a developed a system of cab selection and turnout control that provides complete walk around operation using the Train Engineer.
rrebell If they finish coming up with the new batteries (they are working on them) DCC will be dead as you will not need track voltage at all!!!!!!!!!!!
If they finish coming up with the new batteries (they are working on them) DCC will be dead as you will not need track voltage at all!!!!!!!!!!!
Sounds good, but may not be so good in practice. I own a large HO layout in my basement using DCC.
I also have a large scale garden railroad which uses battery power/radio control from a company in Australia I believe called RCS. I really enjoy the freedom of movement on my garden railroad, not being tied to any type of control system, just turn on the loco(s) with a toggle switch concealed underneath, then aquiring the loco by radio and walk with it or sit and watch it. All my diesels are USA brand.
But, the downside is the batteries don't give me more than two hours running time before its recharge time which also takes some time. The battery packs are generally inside the diesel carbody, but I have a few box cars with battery packs behind the loco that plug in and provide another set of batteries and extended running time by a flip of a toggle. But again, the downside is the time taken to charge the batteries and having them run down during an operating time. I am sure in time improved batteries will come along but at what cost?
You pays you money and you takes your choice.
I'm not sure how much the Aristo/Crest system costs, or anything about the size of the package, but for anohther approach, as far back as about 1975, RMC, and I think MR carried articles on adapting standard general useage or surface RC units for mounting in locos, using NiCad batteries for power. Definitely doable down to HO, maybe not practical for N. Today's radios and electronic speed controls are are much smaller than they were then. In the US, and possibly Canada and Mexico, these radios are available in the 27 MHz, 49 MHz, and 75 MHz, and possibly 2.4 GHz bands. The electronics, matching reciever and reversible model car ESC (Electronic Speed Control) could be fairly easily mounted in a dummy A or B unit, a larger tender on a steam loco, or a freight or passenger car that would be a permanent front end car. The system might even be mountable in a larger dummy of a modern diesel, such as a GE 8-40C, AC6000 type, FM H24-66 Trainmaster, or EMD SD70 types, although the original articles showed F-7s. Main mod to the powered unit would be to insulate the motor from the frame and other power connections and wire it direct to the speed controller output. Battery recharging and/or full voltage power application could be handled either through normal wheeled pick-up through a bridge rectifier or an external plug-in.
Suitable units could probably be obtained from low priced RC cars and boats, or purchased piecemeal from hobby shops. I'd stay away from the newer brushless motors and their specific ESCs,.
If you try this method, remember to use one of the frequencies specified for surface control. Do not use anything on one of the 72 MHz frequencies. The FCC has reserved the 72 MHz band for aircraft use only, while 75 MHz is for surface applications, and the other two are for either.
To all, keep in mind,
There are two completely different concepts being discussed here:
One is a wireless throttle that simply replaces your power pack, and still requires DC layout wiring. It does not require any modifications to DC locomotives. That is the orginal Train Engineer. That is what I use.
The other, the HO Train Engineer, is a onboard reciever based system similar to DCC, but with a direct radio link to the loco for the control information. There is currently only one version of this for HO, but a more advanced version of this is said to be in the works for the new REVOLUTION system. This is what a large percentage of large scale modelers use. Like DCC this only requires two wires to the track for power, and like DCC requires recievers in each loco.
Again your additional questions are welcome.
Another point to clarify - CREST and Aristo Craft are and have always been the same product and company. Like Chevrolet is a division of GM, CREST is a division of Aristo Craft.
PRIO I read your reply and statements regarding your useage of an Aristocraft radio control system for your HO layout. I was told by some that the Train enginner 5470 can be used on my DC Ho layout. I have two main lines with two seperate power sources. It is an old dual DC power pack one for each main. Can I use the Aristocraft Train Engineer with an additonal receiver without purchasing any more power. When I called Aristorcrat they were not much help. They said I had to buy two 24v power sources, one for each of my main lines. I was hoping to use my old dual 12v power pack. My layout is big, and I want to be able to walk around it with not a lot of hassle. I still do things the old fashion way. Thanks, Jim
I read your reply and statements regarding your useage of an Aristocraft radio control system for your HO layout. I was told by some that the Train enginner 5470 can be used on my DC Ho layout. I have two main lines with two seperate power sources. It is an old dual DC power pack one for each main. Can I use the Aristocraft Train Engineer with an additonal receiver without purchasing any more power. When I called Aristorcrat they were not much help. They said I had to buy two 24v power sources, one for each of my main lines. I was hoping to use my old dual 12v power pack. My layout is big, and I want to be able to walk around it with not a lot of hassle. I still do things the old fashion way. Thanks, Jim
Jim, please understand that Aristo is a large scale company. They do not really understand HO operation. what they where telling you is based on what garden railroaders do in large scale. Your dual pack will not work to power two TE recievers. You need to have seperate power supplies for each TE reciever, BUT you do not need their 24V ones for use with HO.
I use Pyramid 13.8v regulated suplies that sell for about $25 each. These work fine with the TE and provide the perfect voltage for HO.
You cannot put a reciever on each loop and run from loop to loop, it simply does not work. You need to have some sort of cab control like you use with your dual pack. I have developed a walk around cab control system for larger layouts. Its a little complex to explain in words, but not hard to do.
Send me a PM if your interested and I will send you some schematics.
I too use the Aristo Craft/Crest Train Engineer wireless throttles on my HO layout.
There are actually four different but related products:
The orginal Train Engineer, 27 mhz, 10 amp, now available as the #55470, 10 channel version is a track side wireless throttle with 10 channels on ten frequencies. In is usual application it powers the track and requires a seperate power supply. To correct some miss-information, this Train Engineer can not be used by putting a "reciever" on each track block and then moving trains from block to block. It simply does not work.
Aristo offers an onboard version of the 10 channel reciever for use in large scale. These recievers are too large for smaller scales.
There is 3 amp version known as the Basic Train Engineer with fewer frequencies.
There is the HO Train Engineer which uses onboard recievers.
There is the NEW Train Engineer Revolution which is 2.4Ghz and is designed for either onboard or trackside use in large scale. I believe Aristo is planning to offer HO recievers for the Revolution as well.
I use the 10, 10 channel model for HO and have developed my own walk around cab selection system to assign the cab to the blocks while walking around the layout.
A great power supply to use with the Train Engineer are simple regulated 13.8 volt supplies sold to power CB radios in your home. 4 amp models can be bought in the Pyramid brand for $25 and work well for using the TE with HO or N scale.
As others mentioned, these systems do not support DCC sound control. So, if you want sound, go DCC.
BUT, if you want good reliable wireless control without sound, you may want to understand your options with the TE.
Let me conclude by saying a few things, being short on time right now, and knowing this response would be long, I only skimmed over the posts in this thread. Nigel has provided correct info, a lot of the other posters seem only partly informed. Please understand I have done extensive developement work with DC wiring for use with the Train Engineer in HO and have installed my system on one other layout beyond my own.
I will be happy to answer specific questions but at this moment cannot disect all of the posts, answer all the questions posed or correct all the mis information.
A search of this board will find some of my earlier posts about the use of the TE in small scales, and, both the Aristo forum and the Bachmann forum contain extensive posts on my work in using the TE in HO scale.
Properly intergrated into a well designed cab control system the Aristo Train Engineer can provide excelent control of your trains. Signaling, automatic route selection, automatic territory protection and more can all be wired into your layout. Walk around and dispatcher operation can be used on the same layout.
The TE provides excelent speed control because its output is pulse width modulated full voltage DC, just like the output of a DCC decoder. Because of this constant lighting circuits work very well.
Feel free to post questions here or to send me a PM. Again you are incouraged to look up this topic on the Bachmann or Aristo forums and you can read about the complete developement of my control system using the TE.
You need to ask yourself what type of operation you will have, multiple locomotives at a time or one at a time, or somewhere in between.
Crest systems work with HO and are wireless. You can walk along with your train. If your layout is spread out, you will want wireless. When you talk about DCC, you need to talk about wireless systems to be comparable. Up goes the price. DCC systems can also use a tethered throttle, but then more wiring is needed (sort of like blocks in DC) and a tethered system is not as convenient as wireless. Infrared wireless requires you to point the throttle in a certain direction I believe, which limits your movement, as opposed to Crest's RF wireless system.
If you are running multiple trains with multiple loco consists, like a club would, DCC is almost a necessity. If you are a lone wolf operator running one or two trains at a time and have a layout large enough to walk along with the train, I think the Crest system is a better product than DCC and a whole lot cheaper.
Now, if you want sound and lighting control, there are some DC products that work, but DCC is probably what you want. Again, wireless DCC systems, coupled with sound and decoder equipped locos, puts you up into a way different price point than DC and Crest.
There is/was a Crest HO system where you could put tiny receivers into each locomotive, plugged right into the decoder socket, where you could then get the multiple locomotive similarities of DCC. Only needed two wires to the layout and you could control more locomotives independent of each other than you could mentally keep track of. All done by simple RF frequencies and existing technology, instead of programmed pulses through the track like DCC.
Why in the world this system never took off I'll never know. Perhaps Crest had the radio control train patent and the other manufactures couldn't get around it. Don't know if that system does sound and lighting control either. If that is the system you want, check about sound and lighting, if you care about that stuff.
QUOTE: Originally posted by dragenrider nfmisso, are you sure that's not backwards? My system for my HO railroad controls two power pack's current to the rails via block wiring. ......
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