I have the first stage of my planned layout and i want to ask you guys if you can find any major problems with it.
Givens:
must fit easily into a 13x13 bedroom
must leave room for me to sleep (this is my bedroom)
Druthers:
N scale
simple to build and get running
relatively broad (for N scale) curves
many operational opportunities (i can take on different roles)
at least one bridge
a tunnel
expandable
Theme:
a small sized north eastern railroad that serves a medium sized town and a few mines. that way i can run long unit coal trains or short locals
Era and locale:
mid 1950's in the north east(obviously) more specific, I don't know
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this layout is really inspired of summers with my dad in delaware and new york and David Popp's layout. it is divided down the middle with a wooded ridge. it is on a 36x80 hcd. the minimum radius is 15". The track is all kato unitrack, i know how most people feel about sectional track but i want to try it for its ease of use, and the fact that you can try different configurations. the track that is at the very top is an interchange, the group of three tracks is a coal customer (i was thinking gas works, any other ideas?) the track to the left is another indrustry, what though, i haven't decided on (im leaning towards a team track). the turnout on the bottom leads to a coal mine (dang anyrail's demo 50 piece limit) i have a picture of that part too if anyone wants to see it. i haven't added staging yet but ive been thinking about where to put it, no spot jumps at me and says "put staging here!", so any suggestions on why one spot would be best or worst would be more than welcome. these are not all of the tracks that would be on the layout (repeat **** that 50 piece limit!) (the turnouts to staging) a river would be in the bottom right flowing under the straight tracks im thinking a tunnel would be on the curve to the right of the river.
later after im done with the trackworck(at least) i will add a 18"x7' area to either the right or left extending upward to expand the town area and that is where the final staging will be (behind the town).
Is this a good idea?
do you see any glaring flaws?
any advice is greatly appreciated. thanks.
You have a good amount of space available and since you want to run some long trains, have you concidered an around the room shelf? It could easily be high enough to be above your bed and any other furniture you have in your room. If you want continuous running you could either have a lift/swing gate to get in and out of the room or, since you are in N you could probably put a reasonable size "blob" each side of the door to reverse your trains. The hcd is not lost, if you have a wall where you could put it you could make it the base for your main yard/town or whatever. Since it is a 36" door, I would suggest scenery, buildings, etc at the back, since 32" is about all that is recommended for reach. Try to reach over when you have it set at the height you decide on, then imagine houses, trees and other scenery between you and the tracks, makes quite a difference. You could also use the hcd as a penninsula if your room layout (not the train part) allows.
An around the room shelf is up out of the way and easy to construct. You could get a loop of track laid so that you could get trains running. Then you choose a section to work on, adding sidings, scenery, buildings, roads and the like as you have time and resources.
Just some thoughts.
Have fun,
I have considered it but the way my room is arranged makes it very difficult. I also want to be able to take it with me when i move out of my parents house (im still a minor)
Guess you are stuck with me again.
Remember that a shelf layout can also be a modular layout, thus easy to move. However, a hcd can be moved easily and made a part of a larger layout later.
I like the design where your tracks to not run parallel to the edges of the layout, however, it seems a bit close to the edge at the top. Any idea how far that would actually be from the edge. I have a place where the track comes "too close" to the edge, but am planning a clear facia, extending above the track to keep the train from taking a trip to floor level.
Would it be possible to have a removeable staging by extending the track at the top right? That would then become one place that this part of your layout could be expanded when you get to a larger space.
It appears that you plan to tunnel through your divider at both ends. For variation you could shorten the divder at one end and either pass into a thick stand of trees or between two buildings. Also, passing under a highway bridge is often used.
Just a couple more thoughts to ponder.
Good luck,
that staging idea could work give me a bit to mess with anyrail. im not planning on using an actual divider, the line is just there for reference, the two sides would be seperated by a wooded ridge. Though i may have a tunnel on the right turnback curve. Oh, by the way the top track is almost exactly 1 inch from the edge.
*Edit: I just had an idea, would it be possible to glue and screw 1x3's to the edge of the door to make it a bit larger? that would solve my edge issues without shrinking the radius, a better place to add any framing for legs, etc. although i would probably have to brace it somehow, maybe with 1x2's or something like that glued to the bottom of the door and extending out 3" on each side, then the 1x3's could be glued and screwed to the edge of the door and top of the joists.
*2nd edit: here is my proposed staging yard/industrial district. the rest of the plan remains the same so i removed it to put in more track. So, any flaws with this area?
Back again!
For legs on hcd, many seem to use the inexpensive fold up type legs. I think they glue a strip of 1x3 or 1x4 where the attachment points are. They are quick, easy to lold up, won't get lost during the move.
Look at this: Dave Vollmer's Juniata Division. It's an outstanding example of exactly what you're trying to do.
Look carefully at the staging yard he's added. This is a critical element of really enjoying your layout.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
i have looked and i think it is an awesome layout but with (in my eyes, maybe not everyones) a few flaws, the main one is the fact that you can see and operate the whole layout from one point. that is one of my main druthers (oops i just realized i forgot to include it in my first post), to be able to have at least 2 scenes where you cant see one from the other(like the carolina central). ill show you the layout that i based my track plan on, it is plan #3 in the 6 railroads you can model mini booklet that came with one of MR's special issues or something it is called the naugatuck valley in N by David Popp.
in my mind the town of seymour would be replaced with a smallish coal mine
update: i have decided to do away with the unitrack, it is just way too limiting and unyielding to fit what i want into an acceptable space. I think im going to go with peco code 55 though i might want to go wigh c 80 for the insulfog turnouts. How do you wire an electrofrog turnout? I have also decided to change up my plan a bit, i will post an image of it when im done.
Hi trainlover,
I don't get you. David Popp's layout has two scenic dividers, the first is a low wooded hill, just like on your plan. He has three scenes, all pretty well apart. The road overpass with the buildings is doing the other job. And his pike has a flaw?
BTW why do you have all drawings twice?
Coalmines never were smallish; and lots of people worked there. So coal-mining areas were rather urban. Seymour can be developed into a mining town.
But you have a interesting design problem. With both sides of the table accessible your layout can't be placed along the wall. Maybe you can show us a drawing of your room and explain how your pike fits in your bedroom, and where you envision the future staging/switching area.
To separate the scenes you will have to build your layout high; not very attractive in a bedroom. Have you considered a shelf (switching) layout along one or two walls?
David gives even an other lesson: by letting his spurs cross each other in the small industrial zone, both spurs have some length.
Paul
train lover12I have considered it but the way my room is arranged makes it very difficult. I also want to be able to take it with me when i move out of my parents house (im still a minor)
1) You won't be likely to move out for another 4 or 5 years, if you are about 13-14 years old now. The odds of you wanting to bring along a door size layout made at age 13 to a college dorm is so small that it is not worth considering. If you stay in the hobby, you will most likely be making new layouts all your life. Consider this layout a learning layout, instead of planning to bring it with you to the retirement home :-)
2) Draw your entire room. Then look at how your layout will co-exist with other uses of the room, and how much floor space you will need to use for a given amount of layout area.
An example - say your layout is 3x8 feet. That is 24 square feet of layout.
Now, if you can put that into a corner, and you don't need to walk around it, the layout itself takes up 24 square feet of floor space. In addition you need to keep a clear aisle of 2 feet wide along the front of the layout. So your layout needs 40 (24 + 16) square feet of your room floor space. About 24% (one quarter, more or less) of your floor space.
Now, if you put a center viewblock down the middle of your layout to create two scenes, you need to be able to walk around it to the back side to see what is going on on that side, and work that side.
So you need 2 foot wide aisles along both long ends and one short end, for a floor space need of 7 x10 feet (70 square feet, almost half your room area), and the layout needs to be placed in such a way that it will jut a minimum of 8 feet into the room from one of the wall - in effect creating a fairly big peninsula into your room.
It may be worth it to get your two scenes. But it may also be a major pain. Draw the entire room, mark out the proposed shapes on the floor with old newspaper - test it out before you commit to sawing wood and laying track.
Draw your room and show your obstacles - that may suggest a layout shape that gives you a longish run and/or a continuous run that will fit well into your room.
Smile, Stein
LOL - I see that Paulus and I posted at about the same time, pointing out about exactly the same thing :-)
Grin, Stein
Paulus JasCoalmines never were smallish; and lots of people worked there. So coal-mining areas were rather urban. Seymour can be developed into a mining town.
I have to disagree with this. There were a lot of very small very rural mines around these parts.
This is the Argentine mine on the B&LE Hilliards branch in spring 1945. That string of hoppers is only a third of all the ones on that spur (the cropped image was over 4000 pixels across if I tried to include all the hoppers. War production, I guess). If I'm interpreting the older imagery right, this is the same spot in the current day. It was one of several (at least a dozen if I remember right) scattered in that general area.
Paulus Jas Hi trainlover, I don't get you. David Popp's layout has two scenic dividers, the first is a low wooded hill, just like on your plan. He has three scenes, all pretty well apart. The road overpass with the buildings is doing the other job. And his pike has a flaw? BTW why do you have all drawings twice? Coalmines never were smallish; and lots of people worked there. So coal-mining areas were rather urban. Seymour can be developed into a mining town. But you have a interesting design problem. With both sides of the table accessible your layout can't be placed along the wall. Maybe you can show us a drawing of your room and explain how your pike fits in your bedroom, and where you envision the future staging/switching area. To separate the scenes you will have to build your layout high; not very attractive in a bedroom. Have you considered a shelf (switching) layout along one or two walls? David gives even an other lesson: by letting his spurs cross each other in the small industrial zone, both spurs have some length. Paul
with the flaw i was talking about the junita (i think i spelled it wrong) Divid Vollmer's layout. as for the double pictures i dont know why they did that, maybe im using the wrong code from photobucket to post. i am drawing a scale drawing of my room ill post it later today.
I agree, if you want to seperate your scenes you need more than a rolling hill. I cut a groove in a 2x4 and glued it to my base. It holds the 1/8" masonite upright with no problems. Depending on how high the table is, it makes it so I can or cannot see someone on the other side, but it always hides the other scene. I did not glue the masonite in, so the divider is removeable if I want to moe the layout to another location. Just paint it blue with a little white blended near the bottom, maybe a cloud or two. You can paint hills and trees on the divider or put backdrop buildings close to it if you want.
here is my room plan:
any more info needed? all furniture is moveable, by the way. ill post a picture of how the layout will fit soon. any more layout ideas now that you can see the room?
about the mine here is my idea: it is a very small startup operation. it is not very prodductive, but is just enough to make a profit (because it is so small costs are small). it would produce about 5 cars a day. no this mine wouldnt have anything to do with the long coal drags (those would run from staging to staging). its loads and empties would be handled by the local freight when it switches the town. then the coal cars would be distributed to the coal consuming industries and staging. does this seem possible? i know its not realistic but it seems to work for me.
Some quick doodling, exploring your available space. This is probably way too big for your room (it takes up a lot of floor space - almost 70 square feet of dedicated floor space), it might be bigger than you can afford (in terms of money and time), and I have not drawn in access to staging, industries, stations etc - it is just an exploration of one of the many possible ways to fit a layout into the lower left hand corner of your room.
It is also an illustration of how liberating it can be to not start with the benchwork shape, and in particular - to not start with a rectangular table for your layout. Benchwork can be made in almost any shape, either standing on legs on the floor or being attached to wall shelves (or some of each).
I started by making two 15" radius (30" diameter) circles, and just moved them around the room to find possible locations for turnback curves that would give a long main run, while being mindful that minimum distance between the circles and other objects should be minimum 24", but preferably 36" or more, and that aisles whenever possible should be multi-use (ie be used to access stuff on both sides of the aisle).
Narrow access aisles that run between a wall and a layout, and thus only can be used to squeeze in along the side of the layout to get at stuff on the layout often seems mostly "wasted" to me. But you do what you have to do with what you have and any design is an exercise in compromises between what you want and what you can get.
Anyways - here is the first sketch. As I said - probably too big and domineering for your room, your parents may not give their blessing for such a big layout, and it may be too much work and too high cost for a thirteen year old.
I am sure one of the others, e.g. Paulus - will have a better design for you.
Hi
a little bit less domineering the room and using small radii (between 10"and 15")
I don't know your length, but when the layout is build at a height of 5 feet you could place your bed under the layout.
The red line is a temporary connection; if you build the table first and the shelf later on.
both of those plans are excellent in my opinion, however stein you're right that layout is way too big. part of the reason i chose a HCD is that they are pretty cheap(less than $30), and i dont have to mess with lumber and power tools for benchwork until ive had a little practice on the legs. Paulus, what is the grade up to the mine? also could you tell me the curve radius of the sharpest curves and where are they? on my layout i want to keep my minimum radius to 12 inches. what is the group of 3 tracks that appears to be a yard and how would it be used? some sort of interchange yard? thanks anyways for responding and drawing up some awesome plans.
*off topic: Stein, im actually closer to 15 than 13 now(birthday's just over a month away). i have a lot of freedom so my mom doesnt care all that much as long as i can afford it without too much help from her(<$500 if that)
hi,
The grade is almost 3%. The hidden curve at the bottom is 10", the 180 degree turns at the upper right are 11.25 and 12.5, as are the radii in the station labelled industrial zone; the remainder has 15"radii. Switches are Atlas #7.
The small yard is where the trains on the mainline can drop off or pick up cuts of cars; indeed a small interchange yard. When you don't have the space adjust the kind of equipment you will run. A Geep with a string of 40-feeters looks great to me, even on a 10 inch radius.
Or build a pike like this one, a pretty simple plan. If I remember well Texas Zephyr has build a plan like this when he was young.
BTW I forgot to remove the altitude numbers; the difference in height on this pike will be max 3".
oh, okay i think that im going to go with the first one but with a few changes, namely widening the bottom by 6" to widen the loop to 12" radius, and what do you think of a second town below the mine branch where the river is? on second thought maybe not, i want to be able to run my trains through a bit of (mostly) pristene nature
how long were hoppers in the fifties? i heard somewhere on these forums that just over 50 ft was a good estimate, is this right?
also, what engine would you expect to see hauling coal hoppers in the fifties? i have an RS-1 that i plan to use for the local, i know that the rr would probably use 2's or 3's if they were out but i figured the rr would use them into the ground before they would spend money on a new one.
Hi,
some sites to study:
http://members.tripod.com/appalachian_railroad/abcsofcoalloaders.html
http://cofga.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=278:accurail-announces-usra-2-bay-hopper&catid=31:freight-equipment
The 3-bay hoppers were 40 feet. (the two-bay-hoppers just over 30 feet; coal is heavy.
To your layout:
the river is meant to separate the mine area from the station in the valley. I thought you liked to have your scenes rather apart.
I like Paulus's first design the best of the ones presented so far - it is the same size as your initial design, but is oriented in such a way that you get a longish mine run, a decent main line run and a small coal marshalling yard.
I'd use 3-bay hoppers - which are not too long, and reasonably realistic for coal cars in the 1950s.
For a mine switcher (which would be use for moving empties and loads around at the mine, and maybe for bringing 8-10 loaded cars from coal mine to the coal marshaling yard at the junction, or bringing empty coal cars from the junction to the mine, I'd pick some small diesel switcher - say an Alco S1 or an EMD NW-1 or some such creature.
For longer coal trains on your mainline - either a bigger steam engine or a couple of diesel road switchers.
What part of the country will you base your layout on - are we talking Appalachian coal mining here - with maybe one tipple and one coal truck dump on your coal branch ?
yes i was thinking appalachian, in the north, im thinking PA
for the switcher would a baldwin VO-1000 work? i ask because i already have one and i would not want to sell it
train lover12 yes i was thinking appalachian, in the north, im thinking PA for the switcher would a baldwin VO-1000 work? i ask because i already have one and i would not want to sell it
Yes. Baldwins were known for low speed lugging, so having it switch a mine would be perfect. Your RS-1 could work the branch drag. Yes, maybe a 2 or a 3 would be better, but if you already have the 1, spend your money elsewhere. An RS-1 pulling 8 to 10 coal cars would not be unrealistic. I think RS-1's are better looking anyway.
I think Paul's first plan is fantastic.
Just some thoughts:
Sounds like you have the space, the plan, and the locomotives and could be on your way soon.
- Douglas
Doughless train lover12 yes i was thinking appalachian, in the north, im thinking PA for the switcher would a baldwin VO-1000 work? i ask because i already have one and i would not want to sell it Yes. Baldwins were known for low speed lugging, so having it switch a mine would be perfect. Your RS-1 could work the branch drag. Yes, maybe a 2 or a 3 would be better, but if you already have the 1, spend your money elsewhere. An RS-1 pulling 8 to 10 coal cars would not be unrealistic. I think RS-1's are better looking anyway. I think Paul's first plan is fantastic. Just some thoughts: In the industrial zone, you could have a small power plant that uses one of the coal trains that comes from the mine every so often. Taking the cars from the mine, to the junction, then running around the train to take the coal around the bend and go to the power plant might be an idea for some operations. A large factory or even a small University sometimes have their own small coal fired power plant that a few hoppers could serve every few days. Don't forget to provide good access to the hidden staging. If you don't like the sharp look to the curved tracks on the peninsula, conceal some part of the curves with tunnels for both the mainline and the branch. They might help create a sense of distance and would further help to separate the industrial zone from the junction scenes. Sounds like you have the space, the plan, and the locomotives and could be on your way soon.
on the engine, thats why i bought it rather than a 2 or 3. it is painted for the wrong rr however. are there any buisinesses that will repaint a loco for you? id repaint it my self but i wouldnt trust myself with a perfectly good paint job. or is it possible for me to just buy a new shell already painted? the loco is an atlas classic RS 1.
that is exactly what i was thinking when i was designing layouts.
that is my main problem, any ideas?
yeah those would be in a tunnel, thats why i decided that as long as the trains could handle them i wouldnt change the radius.
im planning to work out the fine arrangement of the tracks and the industry tracks and such when i can plot them out full sized on the benchwork. will i have any problems with this method? i think i may want to work on the yard a bit to make it more user friendly to the branch line.
I'll try to answer your questions best I can.
As far as the RS-1 being the wrong paint scheme: I would not try to repaint it myself. These days, its hard to beat a factory paint job on an Atlas locomotive. Yes, there are businesses that do that but I don't know if it is worth it in your situation. There are threads here that tell how to rub out the lettering and leave the base paint intact, which is the route I would go if I absolutely had to have the loco in a different name. Atlas lettering comes off with a Q-tip dipped in Pinesol and alot of rubbing. Some paint schemes make this method easier than others. For instance, a Pennsy loco with no lettering and only the little red keystone logo makes it easy to just rub off the logo and decal the locomotive for your home road with simple letters. With more complicated paint schemes, the de-lettering can be a real pain.
Or, you could just leave the locomotive alone and assume it is borrowed power from the other railroad, or, a recently purchased cast-off that hasn't been repainted in your scheme yet.
I may have missed it, but I don't know what railroad scheme you are modeling. Class 1 or shortline?
Access to hidden track: There are various ways. Pop off mountain or an opening in the benchwork come to mind. Others on this forum have experience with hidden staging, but I think all try to avoid it if possible because of the inherent access issues. Its a common problem. Try to search the forum or start a separate thread.
Adjusting trackwork and industry placement as you build the layout: Yes, adjustments can/will be done as you build. In fact, no matter how much you plan, you will end up doing this anyway. Things tend not to look exactly the way we envision them once we begin to put the paper plan to life. However, you will have to plan for the below-the-track scenery elements, like the rivers, when building your benchwork.
Good luck
i am modeling two rrs, one that serves a town, maybe another town, and staging.
the next just serves a mine and nearby town and interchanges with the other rr. so yeah it will be a shortline
i agree atlas does some nice work painting its locos, on one of them there is a label so small i cant read it without a magnifying glass. i thought that too, about just saying they were borrowed locos or havent been repainted yet. i think ill just stick with the factory paint.
train lover12 i think i may want to work on the yard a bit to make it more user friendly to the branch line.
Wish you good luck; I wanted to have as much length as possible for the branch to gain height. And putting the yard inside the oval would shorten the yard tracks and creates a scenery problem at the very same time. Between two "hills" always is a stream or a river and you have to allocate space for it.
But my feeling is you will encounter a couple of problem in the future. Your budget is very tight; a 20+ switches layout is hard to build with 500 bucks. You will need money for the doors, the legs and 1000 other small items. Making an incline on a hollow-core-door cost you money as well and the staging area will be very hard to reach.
Is a more moderate (cheaper) and flat version not a better option?
Have fun, keep smiling