This is the first time that this thread has caught my eye. My idea of railroading is strictly urban/suburban, and 100% passenger trains. (Passengers, after all are tasty and make good LION food.) But consider what it takes to run a passenger train into the city. LIRR trains are mostly 10 or 12 cars long, call it 850 to 1000 feet long. In HO your passenger platforms would be over 11 feet long. This does not fit in a 10 x 10 room.
Fortunately the LIONS train room is 24' x 27', but still nowhere near enough for a credible Penn Station. Besides, NYP is all underground. Are you going to model a hole in the ground?
Well the LION is doing just that, but him is focused on NYCT (subways). Subway trains are also 10 cars long, but the shorter (!RT) cars make trains 500' long. This makes the platforms 6' long. The LION has compromised and runs six car trains stopping at 4' long platforms.
The LION is not all that much of a skilled builder, and the shortcuts he used in construction would never pass muster with the MR editors. Still, the layout pleases the LION and that is good enough for me.
The subway runs in tunnels, under cut and cover streets, in open cuts, on embankments, and on elevated structures. It runs through "woodland" (Think Franklin Shuttle) and down town at Penn Station.
A passenger (commuter) railroad serving a REAL city needs trains every few minutes. You can model some sort of a push pull commuter line in Arizona with one train an hour, but that does not cut it for a city. And for a subway trains passing every few seconds on a four track main line is closer to the mark.
The LION is presently running (or will run when he rebuilds his lower track level) eight trains at a time. Six on the (1) Broadway Local and one in each direction on the (2) Seventh Avenue Express. LION does not have eight operators. Him runs the railroad by himself. Him not have money to computerize the railroad or even to use DCC. Nonetheless the railroad is automated, and the LION need only dispatch the trains from 242nd Street.
Penn Station is (will be) represented as a static display on the lower levels of the main table. It will serve as a display for the older passenger cars that I will no longer be running. Since viewers can only see glimpses of it, it does not need high degrees of detail.
LION will make a credible model of Seventh Avenue between 33rd Street and 31st street above Penn Station and above the subway line that passes through there. That will be expensive over $500.00 which I do not have and cannot get. Further south I will build a model of the former World Trade Center. Each Tower was 200' x 200' or with a 2' square HO footprint. But then the towers would have to be over 15' tall! Forced perspective will make the towers smaller and shorter. Smaller buildings around the base, perhaps N scale buildings behind HO scale buildings will aid this deception. Still one is tempted to forgo such towers and simply model Battery Park. That is much easier and is also "Big City".
The LION will also model Seventh Avenue above 42nd Street, but this will be at the top of the layout, and while viewers can look directly into the subway station at eye level, they will need a step stool to see the street level. Buildings will consist of cardboard cutouts with lighted signs fixed on them. After all, one does not see buildings in times square, one sees lighted billboards. Broadway is a pedestrian mall at this point in the city.
If you look at my system map, you will see that I have fit the railroad and the city into the tables that I have built. The train moves from one vignette to another and I try to smooth the transitions as best I can. The layout is on "Three" levels (if you do not count the helix and mezzanines) and so sometimes a subway tunnel is placed just above an open air scene. 242nd Street to 42nd Street is on the upper level; 8th Street to 34th Street is on the middle level; and 14th Street to South Ferry is on the lower level. Thus 42nd Street is directly above Smith-9th Street. Only a thin strip of fascia separates them, and a hidden helix to the lower level is behind and below the Smith-9th Street Station. The track to South Ferry is in the lower left corner of the picture.
Once all of the track is in, I will have a city subway, but there will not be much room to model a city.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
This is my first post so bear with me. I have experienced frustration at building a viable urban layout and I have come to 2 main things to keep in mind.
1) If you are modeling in N scale, you might want to reconsider an urban layout. Even with large N scale buildings, it may not give you the impression of size you are looking for, and unless your layout is at nearly eye level, you will have an airborne perspective, not a street level point of view. HO is a better choice for an urban layout due to the sheer size of the buildings, the level of detail and the availability of product is far better in HO. Something I didn't think through when I changed from HO to N. A large N scale building, either a kitbash of multiple smaller buildings or one of the newer buildings from Lunde will be a substantial investment in order to create the effect you are looking to achieve. If money is no object it doesn't matter, but for those on a budget..... Also Rome was not built in a day, think in the long term, be patient, find buildings that will kitbash well into larger structures and gradually accumulate many of them until you can build what you want--make sure you can still find them. It is frustrating to obtain a discontined kit that would have potential for kitbashing only to discover you will never be able to procure another one.
2) Trying to fill up an N scale layout with building is expensive, don't try to fill every square inch with a building, cities have streets, bridges, freeways and these help create the flavor of a city when used in conjunction with each other. Railroad cuts exist in major cities now, the tracks are rarely near the downtown area at street level unless you are modeling an earlier era. Allow space for parking lots, empty lots, etc. All these things are characteristics of a major city--you need to study urban areas so you don't end up looking like a suburb--go vertical, downtown areas have apartments, town houses and tenaments, not ranch houses and split levels. If you live in a suburb, take a trip to a large city and take a digital camera along so you can review your photos and create the right atmosphere. You won't find a Wal Mart in the downtown of a major city, no you won't find a 10 story Wal Mart so don't try to represent one. Make sure what you represent is appropriate!
Another urban layout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3EoufT8B7A&feature=channel
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Thanks Stein & markalan for the compliments.
I think I have a while to go before its museum Quality.. I still have alot track ballasting to do and other things.
Although it has that display function, I really enjoy running trains from Station to Station through the North Phil interlocking and up the Highline to Broad street Station. Once this new loop is completed the dog bone configuration will be in effect with 120 feet of mainline track. thats not many for some but for me its alot. Im also thinking of building a loop under 30th street station back to Zoo interlocking That way some trains will not have to orbit the center city area to get from one station to the other.
Stein, You were right about the storage closet for a freight storage yard. Thats is another project on the list. The trolley tracks that appear to be ducking under the layout was an idea I had for a trolley subway, but I canned that idea in favor of a seperate elevated/subway that would run from North Philly to West Philadelphia with three stations one being in a subway, another on a ramp out of the subway and the final stop elevated in West Philadelphia.
Steve In Philly
Steve Smith 1:1 Railroad Architect 1:87 Railroad Architect Certified PRR foamer
Visit www.prrnortheastcorridor.com
Movies http://www.youtube.com/user/ac0catenary
Live DCC catenary in Ho scale
Urban/City Modeler
A Real Juice Jack .. IF its not electric Its not running on my layout.
Steve,
I haven't been up on the forum in a few months but today between appointments, the urban thread caught my attention. Your city is, to my eye, a CITY. In the past, steinjr and I have compared notes on urban layouts and found much to agree upon. Today, I agree with everything he said about your layout. It is outstanding. Thanks for posting your photos and notes.
Having said that, I'll go do some work on my very small (6'x2') "slice" of a city.
markalan
accatenary Basically its two railroads in one, a trolley layout and a heavy traction layout. The Heavy traction Layout has 4 switch towers (panel locations) Zoo, Arsenal, North Phil & Broad The Heavy Traction layout is a 4 track oval at one end, a figure 8 in the middle and a loop at the other end making the whole set up a dog bone.(see plan below) It can be set up for viewing purposes with 4 trains that operate continuously independant of one another or Point to Point operations. Freight operations are minimal with industrial switching that occurs along six sidings along the main line. With a larger (freight staging yard)planned extension reached by a wye at zoo interlocking. Passenger operations are Point to Point from 30th street station to Broad Street Station South via a North Philly Full 4 track interlocking on to a two track viaduct (highline) that leads across town to Broad St Station. At Broad st Station which is set up as a stub end station with a wye at the begining of the throat, for turning locomotives/passenger trains or through freights but Broad Street station also has two through Tracks that lead to another part of the city with a loop/4 track yard for turning passenger trains back to Broad st Station .Staging of passenger trains is essentially done in the stations with total capacity of 11 passenger trains. As of now I am building process of building the Loop extension which is really a staging area that is not hidden. Each Station is served by a trolley line and in one section of the City the trolley lines cross the railroad at grade crossings. In this area there is an industrial siding that has an freight exchange with trolley maintenance depot. The Trolley lines are Basically street running with working traffic lights and if you obey the signals it will take forever to do the longest route which is 96 feet.
Basically its two railroads in one, a trolley layout and a heavy traction layout. The Heavy traction Layout has 4 switch towers (panel locations) Zoo, Arsenal, North Phil & Broad
The Heavy Traction layout is a 4 track oval at one end, a figure 8 in the middle and a loop at the other end making the whole set up a dog bone.(see plan below) It can be set up for viewing purposes with 4 trains that operate continuously independant of one another or Point to Point operations. Freight operations are minimal with industrial switching that occurs along six sidings along the main line. With a larger (freight staging yard)planned extension reached by a wye at zoo interlocking. Passenger operations are Point to Point from 30th street station to Broad Street Station South via a North Philly Full 4 track interlocking on to a two track viaduct (highline) that leads across town to Broad St Station. At Broad st Station which is set up as a stub end station with a wye at the begining of the throat, for turning locomotives/passenger trains or through freights but Broad Street station also has two through Tracks that lead to another part of the city with a loop/4 track yard for turning passenger trains back to Broad st Station .Staging of passenger trains is essentially done in the stations with total capacity of 11 passenger trains. As of now I am building process of building the Loop extension which is really a staging area that is not hidden.
Each Station is served by a trolley line and in one section of the City the trolley lines cross the railroad at grade crossings. In this area there is an industrial siding that has an freight exchange with trolley maintenance depot. The Trolley lines are Basically street running with working traffic lights and if you obey the signals it will take forever to do the longest route which is 96 feet.
I have looked at your track plan, had a look at your web page (again), and looked at several of your youtube videos.
I suspect that your layout is truly in an awe inspiring class of it's own. Maybe the phrase you chose to describe it is appropriate, even thought it somehow doesn't run that easy off the tongue (yet) : "City Modeling Railroading", rather than "Urban Model Railroading". Or maybe I would have described it as "museum display layout" - where a railfan can stand for a long time watching passenger trains and trolleys run fully automated through a great depiction of the downtown area (and a sample of the Germantown area) of the city of brotherly love.
Where you can go e.g : "Wow - wasn't that a Metroliner that just ran by?", or stand there and watch with fascination the trolleys roll up to the intersection, stop at a red light and wait for a green light before proceeding.
IMO, this is a work of art that, which also is built on solid engineering. I would not be surprised if the city of Pennsylvania wouldn't some day offer to buy your entire house with the layout and turn it into a major tourist attraction for railfans - provided you are actually located in the Philadelphia area and that it would be possible to arrange for parking and the flow of people through the room to look at the layout and such practical considerations. It is Miniature Wunderland Hamburg style model railroading - very impressive, both in sheer size and in detail work and automation!
And you track plan is very sound for what you are doing - by keeping 4 passenger (or more) trains moving all the time, and by having the other seven sitting at the two impressive stations, or at the North Philadelphia loop you create, with those 11 passenger trains, a very convincing impression of a very bustling city railroad - there will be several different trains through your field of vision every 30 seconds.
The trolley lines are also fascinating, with the interaction between different trolley routes. I bet that automating signals and routes must have been a major task, with an awesome number of iterations to get everything synchronized !
I also like that you have added a freight mostly path trough your city, where you can run longish freight trains in display mode, and do a little switching when you feel like it. And I can see how that storage room off to the right is just calling out for some freight staging (by way of the upper track off the layout at the left at Zoo tower).
Btw - those two trolley tracks (red) that stops suddenly (or ducks under the layout ?) just above and to the right of the 30th street station - what are they leading to ?
Smile, Stein
steinjraccatenaryI'm modeling beyond the factory Facades that line the Railroad. City modeling is just that. I model freight, Passenger and surface transit operations and they how react with each other. Its all part of a city wide system. The city makes a nice (albeit a little too big for my taste) backdrop, but the interesting part is the railroading. How about telling us a little about how you model the railroading part of your city layout ? How long is an operating session ? How many operators ? What kind of staging do you have ? How many freight trains do you run in an operating session ? What do they do ?How do you route your freight trains - is there just one route, or several ? How many passenger trains ? What do they do ? How do you schedule passenger trains ? How does transit and heavy rail interact ? Smile, Stein, curious
accatenaryI'm modeling beyond the factory Facades that line the Railroad. City modeling is just that. I model freight, Passenger and surface transit operations and they how react with each other. Its all part of a city wide system.
The city makes a nice (albeit a little too big for my taste) backdrop, but the interesting part is the railroading.
How about telling us a little about how you model the railroading part of your city layout ? How long is an operating session ? How many operators ?
What kind of staging do you have ?
How many freight trains do you run in an operating session ? What do they do ?How do you route your freight trains - is there just one route, or several ?
How many passenger trains ? What do they do ? How do you schedule passenger trains ?
How does transit and heavy rail interact ?
Smile, Stein, curious
The Railroad is DCC and at this point isn't that complicated in the terms of operators and operating sessions. It takes two people to operate it effienciently although I can run it myself. Basically its two railroads in one, a trolley layout and a heavy traction layout. The Heavy traction Layout has 4 switch towers (panel locations) Zoo, Arsenal, North Phil & Broad
Steve
I don't consider detailing an urban or city environment all that much different than detailing a town or industry or decent countryside. All take time to get right. Super-detailing urban type areas is probably harder than other environment.
A city or big urban area does take up space, witness the Chicago city layout at the Museum of Science and Technology (see pictures below). If you look hard enough they put in details, but you won't find a back alley with trash.
I will have several "urban areas" on my planned layout, some just Main Street, one a multi-block area next to Springfield Union Station. Would be nice to have a bigger Springfield, but time and money AND space will not permit.
Link to construction details of the HO layout.
Alan
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Paul
Although severely compressed my layout gives you two benefits: the feeling of up and personal small freight/passenger/trolley diorama and the feeling of the city as a whole as viewed from all sides not just one or two. Its not just operations it’s a 3d journey from one area to another. Its 5 or 10 blocks x 10 blocks x 25 stories.. 3 dimension backdrop is what I call it.
hi
we agree on the slice, remains one issue:
You are modeling the facade along your surface lines, I do the very same. Only your surface line facade is different from mine. Yours contains theaters, shops (boutiques) and offices, mine is less fancy.
This thread is about city/urban layouts. If you want to use the word city only for the posh high rise part of town you have at least in the USA a major problem. In to many towns the downtown area is pretty much run down. Scattered along major boulevards are shopping and office centers. Witch cities still have surface transport. Compared with Europe only a few.
And let us be honest; even in major towns in the past were never so many lines as in your dreamscape. George Sellios and you are great dreamers, but both pikes have nothing to do with reality. Don't get me wrong, I do love mr Sellios's dream, but a dream it is.
Your layout or mr Sellios's are also only 5 or 10 blocks long due to severe selective compression. And you tell me that my 5 or 10 blocks don' t count. As i said before we are just looking at a different direction.
When leaving Utrecht Central 50 years ago, to the North was downtown or the city and to the south were industrial zones and blue collar residential area's. Today a huge Congress building is facing the south side of the station. Will be the same in your country.
You also (like me) are using the word city in two different connotations. From the city to the city-limits is using the two meanings in one line. It is about the proper use of words; I often hear real estate agents using the word city-centre. They made me clear I could not buy a farm in the city-centre. Debating the meaning of a word is fruitless when the word can be and is used in different ways.
Bill Denton's Kingbury Branch is in Chicago (city?), but not along the loop. Your layout is in the high-rise centre of Philadelphia. BTW I remember having seen some tracks in the street pictures in downtown Philadelphia in the 50's. Probably a condo paradise today.
Paulus Jas hi, I do not know what you are talking about. I know quite a lot of 100000+ inhabitants city's. All are way bigger then your little empire. You also are building just a slice of the real thing. At stake here is a proper use of words; I do not like you claiming the word city. You are modeling passenger operations in a city, I am modeling transloading operations in the city. Paul
hi,
I do not know what you are talking about. I know quite a lot of 100000+ inhabitants city's. All are way bigger then your little empire. You also are building just a slice of the real thing.
At stake here is a proper use of words; I do not like you claiming the word city. You are modeling passenger operations in a city, I am modeling transloading operations in the city.
A "slice" but a bigger slice then 5 or 10 blocks that a "transloading" or just a switching layout would occupy. I'm modeling beyond the factory Facades that line the Railroad. City modeling is just that. I model freight, Passenger and surface transit operations and they how react with each other. Its all part of a city wide system.
accatenaryCity modeling railroading is modeling the City as a whole. It is a larger Category of Urban Model Railroading that really encompasses everything (from the city limits to the center of city).
When you like to differentiate between modeling the "city" versus scenes in a city, you are welcome. All to often, also in large city's both sides of the tracks were treated differently. In to many "towns" you could find the "city" at one side and an industrial area at the other side of the tracks. Focussing on commutor trains, metro-like systems or streetcars is a choice you can make. I do not like the every 5 or 15 minutes appearence the very same train on high frequented lines. I like the view actually, but operating such a pike seems boring to me. And switching between the 12 trains going east and the 12 going west every hour of the day in my home town (pop 40000) means waiting in the hole for hours. The same number of trains, even more near and in bigger towns or city's, brings no operational fun for me. So I started looking to the other side of the tracks.
City modeling railroading is modeling the City as a whole. It is a larger Category of Urban Model Railroading that really encompasses everything (from the city limits to the center of city). While something Like a Switching Layout encompasses only a small part of Urban Model Railroading. When I Mean “City” I’m talking about a population center of 100,000 or more with buildings over Ten Stories with a large railroad station. Anything lower in population is a town but is considered Urban. In Cities, most likely the main line is Grade Separated. There are few examples of City model railroads ex: Franklin & Manchester, Rod Stewarts Layout and plenty examples of urban switching type model railroads. Ex Sweet Home Chicago, Milwaukee beer layout. City model railroading must not be confused with switching. Switching model railroads are just a “Slice” of the city and tend to be more protypical because there is less space needed, while the City railroad attempts to represents the whole city and it is more constrained by modeling space. It can be done in a small space with the right scaling. A Rarer subset of City Model railroading are layouts with “full” model traction or Subway/El systems and mainline railroading I’ve seen very few “city” layouts in MR but allot of Urban Switching layouts. Below is a 3d view of My Layout. Right now its 80% finished
with 35+ square blocks and almost a Hundred buildings. Most of the tall ones are Scratchbuilt ..
Metro Red Linebut when it comes to modeling it, and if you wanna be more or less prototypical, you're gonna have to do away with classic layout "ideals" such as grade crossings (in most cities, railroad ROW is grade-separated), mountains and tunnels, etc.
but when it comes to modeling it, and if you wanna be more or less prototypical, you're gonna have to do away with classic layout "ideals" such as grade crossings (in most cities, railroad ROW is grade-separated), mountains and tunnels, etc.
This important aspect is retained in the planning of our CR&T layout -- the Pennsy surrounds the Conemaugh Road & Traction representing the city's passenger & shortline freight with those interurban grade crossings, etc. The Pennsy portion will have major (but limited) industry sidespurs for freight and passenger interchange, and yet will still require the majority of staging yards.
Pennsy's mainline was the first "cross-state Pennsylvania Turnpike."
In Western Pennsylvania, the (generally) 4-track mainline (now NW 3-track) from Altoona on the east slope, thru Horseshoe Curve & Gallitzin Tunnels, and down the west slope through Johnstown was always isolated somehow from the urban center's activity.
In the middle of Johnstown & Bethlehem Steel...
PRR's Stone Bridge -- elevated mainline is in middle of Johnstown.
Union Station Passenger Platform -- 2 tenths mile east of Stone Bridge.
Between major Western Pennsylvania towns, like Johnstown and Greensburg, the Pennsy 4-track mainline would become less than 4-tracks, like when splitting to both sides of the Conemaugh River's Conemaugh Gap, down to a 2-track mainline, 3-4 miles west of the two above downtown pictures.
Conemaugh Gap Tracks -- seen every few pictures just west of town.
Bethlehem Steel had apx. 12 miles of plants in Johnstown, and when the PRR "interchanged" with the Freight Car Division (home of the BethGon), it never lost that "4-track interstate-flavor" even when running through the middle of a large Bethlehem Steel Plant interchange yard -- just isolated from the city's culture.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Metro Red LineRailroads might still play a vital economic role to that city, but when it comes to modeling it, and if you wanna be more or less prototypical, you're gonna have to do away with classic layout "ideals" such as grade crossings (in most cities, railroad ROW is grade-separated), mountains and tunnels, etc. Even if you had a large layout space, there simply isn't much room to do a big city justice. If you were to do an N-scale version Chicago, the Sears Tower would be 9 feet tall!
Railroads might still play a vital economic role to that city, but when it comes to modeling it, and if you wanna be more or less prototypical, you're gonna have to do away with classic layout "ideals" such as grade crossings (in most cities, railroad ROW is grade-separated), mountains and tunnels, etc.
Even if you had a large layout space, there simply isn't much room to do a big city justice. If you were to do an N-scale version Chicago, the Sears Tower would be 9 feet tall!
You seem to confuse "modeling railroading in a city" with "modeling the downtown area of a big city".
If you want to model an entire big city (or even just the entire downtown area of a big city), then you need a lot of space.
If you want to model railroading in a big city in a realistic looking way, you can do a very credible and interesting thing in e.g. 4x2 feet (in H0 scale, to boot).
But instead of just repeating all the arguments that already has been discussed in this thread, I respectfully suggest you read all the posts in the thread and think about what has been pointed out.
a lot of talk, what is needed is more precise use of words.
No one can ever do justice to greater urban area's, but no one can ever do justice to the UP in Wyoming or the Santa Fe through New Mexico too.
Mistake # 1, never confuse an urban area with downtown or the city.
Bill Denton built Chicago (Kingsbury branch); a wonderful pike. Lance Minheim built and is building Miami. If you look well in most bigger urban area's, not in the city, you will find quite buildable places. Who has not seen a rainy Brooklyn at 3 AM. Some of the old hats even remember the Milwaukee based KR&DC.
Mistake #2, also John Allen modeled an urban area. George Sellios had a good look at John Allen's layout, he was defenitely not the first; and imho not the most inspirationally.
Mistake #3: you don't need a hangar for an urban layout. As our metroman stated you can only model a hint of a big city. This is what we all are doing all the time, whether it is Abo County or Orange County or New Jersey. Just a hint of coalmining operations in West Virginia, but how well was it done on Tony Koester's Coal Fork Extension. Just a hint of the Milwaukee Beer Line, what a nice little layout it was.
I am born and raised in Amsterdam, across the big pond, and I must admit it costs me years to realise where to look. A nice exemple can be seen in MRP 2009, page 76 a track plan with a European Flavor, modeling the larger Vienna urban area. As ever the city side was modeled. But the picture of the house track in that backyard alley really struck me. What an awesome model this could be, you just have to see it. And road crossings all around. So now we have mistake #4.
After Henry Ford brought out his model-T in the 20's life changed. Vast area's of our countries are suburban; not only to day but dating back to the 30's in USA, to the 50's in Europe. So broaden your view to the larger urban or suburban area's. In my home town (Bussum) were three large industrial plants, still operational through the 60's, beside three teamtracks and a freighthouse. And six roadcrossings; the gates are down often with more then 10 trains, in both directions every hour of the day. I've seen so many pictures of cityroads crossing tracks throughout the States. Just turn your back to the city.
BTW Lance Mindheim's Down Town Spur isn't even on the 30's Sandborn Maps. The area was still out of town in that decade (my guess, not 100% sure).
Metro Red Line If you want to model multi-story buildings you can, but don't expect to model an entire city skyline, even if your layout space was the size of an airplane hangar.
Really, this layout is only 15x18 http://prrnortheastcorridor.com/NORTHEASTCORRIDORHO.html
tomikawaTTIn the urban areas I am most familiar with, the railroads are simply overwhelmed by massive nearby structures, many of which serve no rail-related function. Then, too, since the real estate value is astronomical, the air rights over the rails are a valuable commodity.
In the urban areas I am most familiar with, the railroads are simply overwhelmed by massive nearby structures, many of which serve no rail-related function. Then, too, since the real estate value is astronomical, the air rights over the rails are a valuable commodity.
You took the words right out of my mouth! I think that's the reason right there. In a big city, buildings and auto infrastructure (read: freeways, wide, multi-lane-with-parallel parking streets) are king. Railroads might still play a vital economic role to that city, but when it comes to modeling it, and if you wanna be more or less prototypical, you're gonna have to do away with classic layout "ideals" such as grade crossings (in most cities, railroad ROW is grade-separated), mountains and tunnels, etc.
I live in a big city, was born and raised, I consider myself an urban dweller by nature. But even in N scale, for me at least, a largely urban layout won't be that fun. Of course, if I had a much larger layout space, I can model a fraction of a city, and even model rail-related locales like an intermodal yard, a large multi-track passenger terminal, commuter and/or light rail operations, etc. But I'm not gonna have room to make many mountains and hills.
The best thing to do is model a "hint" of a city - either through a backdrop or false front structures or the like. Have a freeway run along the backdrop. If you want to model multi-story buildings you can, but don't expect to model an entire city skyline, even if your layout space was the size of an airplane hangar.
Hi from Belgium,
A few months ago I iniate a post about city/urban modeling.
This post was very interesting about all the answer I received and also all the links you provided.
I have begun the construction of a big city in Nscale for my Maclau River RR set in the end of the thirties.
Because of a coming move work is stopped a little bit for now.
The town is in fact a divider between my Port Allen and the Yard area, its fit in an roughly 4.5 feet by 3 feet. I was asking for well detailled town even I am modeling in Nscale. Level is 4.2 feet from the ground so your eyes are nearly in the streets. For now only building construction and a few laying track are on the way.
What I have learn about the construction of the town of Corrinnesburg?
Well it's fun to do and I like the way trains are litteraly small insects at the feet of the skyscrapper.
But don't forget two thinghs about urban modeling, it's time consuming and very expensive because a lot of model are needed whithout speaking about all the cars and people to populate it.
Whithout no doubt you are easily to a minimum of 500/1000$ models to make a medium sized town!
I have bought nearly all the models aviable of urban building from DPM, Lunde, Walthers and the list is long.
Kitbashing and scratchbuilding is necessary if you want big buildings.
In some case I have made rubber molds of the models using the manufacturer parts as master to create big buildings from my own design and to save money. Beleive me it's time consuming!
Roads are made of stryrene or plaster.
Now I am on the way to build the big station with a six tracks underfloor. I starded whith two heavily modified Vollmer Nscale Baden-Baden station, whith now flat roof and an different wall arrangement.
On the other side of the town is also a small downtoww project with smaller building.
I am looking for some skyscrapper of www.custommodelrailroad.com which look great even if a little bit expensive.
This town take a lot of time to do and even it was fun, I don't repeat such project on the expanding Maclau River.
By example I was able to construct the benchwork, lay track and sceniked my yard in a two months to an average finished look but it's take the same time to just complete a small street with all the buildings and details.
So good luck for your urban projects.
Marc
The site of the town just behind port
Where Corinnesburg is on the Maclau route
wjstixAlthough people did have parts of their layouts dedicated to urban railroading, I think it wasn't until George Sellios came along that people really started to realize what could be done in that area. As far as why more people don't do it, I guess it's different for different people. People living in crowded urban areas maybe want to have their layout be a "getaway" to a more rural, scenic area...and maybe people living in rural areas feel more comfortable modelling that, compared to modelling "the big city"?? Cost could be a factor, plaster and such for hills and valleys are cheaper than dozens of structure kits.
Although people did have parts of their layouts dedicated to urban railroading, I think it wasn't until George Sellios came along that people really started to realize what could be done in that area. As far as why more people don't do it, I guess it's different for different people. People living in crowded urban areas maybe want to have their layout be a "getaway" to a more rural, scenic area...and maybe people living in rural areas feel more comfortable modelling that, compared to modelling "the big city"??
Cost could be a factor, plaster and such for hills and valleys are cheaper than dozens of structure kits.
It could also be a matter of skill. Natural scenes are hard to say "you did it wrong". There is a lot of variation and leeway. Rarely is anything ever straight, sharp, or precise. It might also be a matter of finding materials. Or it may be that people want their railroads to go from one town to another so they make smaller towns so they can have more in-between spaces.
Robt. Livingston Looking back over the history of model railroading, I was always impressed that Railroad Model Craftsman seemed to cover more of the Eastern subject matter I was interested in than Model Railroader. WHY were certain forms of model railroading favored in one magazine over the other? It was clearly not random. I suspect editorial policy did indeed shape the tone and content of the two mags. Maybe MR has tried to be all things to all men, while other magazines have cultivated more narrow interests.
Looking back over the history of model railroading, I was always impressed that Railroad Model Craftsman seemed to cover more of the Eastern subject matter I was interested in than Model Railroader.
WHY were certain forms of model railroading favored in one magazine over the other? It was clearly not random. I suspect editorial policy did indeed shape the tone and content of the two mags. Maybe MR has tried to be all things to all men, while other magazines have cultivated more narrow interests.
Well first to state the obvious, Hal Carstens was from New Jersey and Al Kalmbach was from Wisconsin, and both had their publishing companies headquartered in their home state. A lot easier to do an article on a railroad near you !!
MR I think has always been aimed more at the layout builder, RMC more aimed at the model builder. When Model Craftsman started, it was a mag for guys who liked to build models of things - boats, planes, and trains. It evolved into Railroad Model Craftsman, but kept the emphasis on building models. This made sense, at that time people who built models and often had a very simple layout to operate them on at best - the point was building the model (often completely from scratch) and getting it to work.
Model Railroader was aimed more at people who wanted to build a working layout, and were more interested in that than in just building models for their own sake. (BTW in the early days MR was sort of the unofficial - offical mag of the NMRA, and carried NMRA news, meets etc.) This is just a guess, but I bet over the years MR has had more articles on scenery than RMC for example.
Robt. Livingston The typography and layout was cruder in RMC, some of the writing was poorer, but the subjects were more interesting to me.
The typography and layout was cruder in RMC, some of the writing was poorer, but the subjects were more interesting to me.
I've written and submitted several articles over the years, the only mag to publish one was RMC...so I would have to agree they may have some "quality control" issues.
rclangerDoctorWayne:As the one who initiated this thread I have followed most of the comments and learned alot. Your layout size seems to be ideal to display urban, small towns, with the river and rural area between them. Your modeling is very good and well thought out.My layout room is small so my entire layout will be urban. Not New York City urban, not even downtown Norfolk or Portsmouth Virginia. An urban flavor can be modeled so anyone seeing it will know they are looking at an urban industrial area. Many of your pictures show exactly what I am talking about. The viewer knows that there is more city behind the railroad scene.I thank you and all the others who contributed to this thread with meaningful comments and suggestions.
DoctorWayne:
As the one who initiated this thread I have followed most of the comments and learned alot. Your layout size seems to be ideal to display urban, small towns, with the river and rural area between them. Your modeling is very good and well thought out.
My layout room is small so my entire layout will be urban. Not New York City urban, not even downtown Norfolk or Portsmouth Virginia. An urban flavor can be modeled so anyone seeing it will know they are looking at an urban industrial area. Many of your pictures show exactly what I am talking about. The viewer knows that there is more city behind the railroad scene.
I thank you and all the others who contributed to this thread with meaningful comments and suggestions.
And I thank you for your kind remarks.
Wayne
Bob
Photobucket Albums:NPBL - 2008 The BeginningNPBL - 2009 Phase INPBL - 2010 Downtown
I built a pretty nice urban layout years ago, which I have a lot of VHS tape of, but precious few photos. Mine was definitely "destination" based, with a terminal yard and a large passenger depot. The whole scene occupied a shelf layout, approximately 11' long x no more than 2', and most of it was about 18" deep (N scale)
Here's a rough sketch of the track plan...
As you can see, the main line was basically a folded dogbone with return loops at each end. The photos were shot on the left side of the partition. The upper area of the left side was densely developed with a varity of urban type structures, which were on a rise over the tracks. The Passenger station was down in a pit, with lower platforms, and a single higher level platform that was served by commuter trains (I had some ConCor RDC's back in the day!). From the downtown, which was across the street from the station, the roads sloped down hill toward the industrial tracks in the foreground, where I had some large DPM factory buildings. The city scape wrapped around to the left, with an elevated roadway and a ramp down to a small intermodal terminal.
It was a really fun layout to build, working out the engineering to get the structures lit, street lighting etc. It was also fun to operate, with the branch line over on the rural side, and the compact but functional yard.
One of these days I'll have to do a more detailed drawing of it...
I'm working out a revision to my current track plan now to try to add a more urban scene. I really do like the effect of a big city. (Well, Cumberland is a big-ish city!) But I'd love to do the area around Hillen Terminal in Baltimore... maybe as a One Track module.
I also work in a small town, (and live there, too) so I guess you could say I'm a neo-urbanist...There's just something about those old stacks of bricks downtown and out by the railroad that fascinate me...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
As I have three urban areas to deal with, I make a distinction between urban and city. I grew up in NYC (Rockaway) and I agree, the only visible tracks are either the subway (El) or further out in Brooklyn or Queens. To me, that is urban. As is East Hartford CT or to some extent Hartford, CT. The city is Manhattan and tracks in contemporary terms is not really visible. If you model 30s or 40s that is not the case, but even then the "city" is a backdrop.
Springfield MA, my major "city" or urban area, is different. Union Station and it's elevated yard is very obvious. The track wrap around the downtown area, with it's share of tall buildings, but they don't run through the downtown area. The tracks in Hartford also miss the downtown area and the buildings are just backdrop for the yard north of the city. The main line runs just to the west and is visible among the buildings or from roads.
Yes big buildings are expensive, but then so are some of the large industries in the more rural areas and take up far more space. Like everything else, city/urban modeling needs selective compression.
As to time spent on scenery, why does modeling a sidewalk (available ready made or easily scratch built) or adding people, mail boxes, trash etc. take more time than tufts of grass, decent looking trees, realistic ponds or rivers, corn fields etc. etc.? Well crafted, realistic scenery takes time in any form.
OOPS! Sorry Everyone...I'm new to picture posting. Here is a link to my site that HAS the picture of my city I just described. Thanks!
You can click on the picture on the main site to enlarge it on a new page.
http://sites.google.com/site/joesurbanchicagosite/
...I guess I went against the "grain" if you will when I built my layout. When planning my layout six years ago, I wanted something that was truly mine; something that said "me". I have always been a fan of skyscrapers and stadiums, and so I wanted both on this layout. Granted, these building on this layout still need to be painted, but this is what my skyline looks like to this point on a typical night. The stadium to the right is a model of old Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati; I have field lights and other lights that I am currently installing to make it look realistic for ballgames; the skyline is made up of various skyscrapers from around the U.S. The Sears (or Willis) Tower is the centerpiece of the city; with the Chase Tower in Indianapolis directly to it's right. To the left front is a partial model of the World Trade Center Complex as it was pre 9/11. The entire downtown area is a grid of 9 blocks centered around a park with a model of the Chicago Water Tower in it. As stated earlier, all of my buildings still need to be painted, and I will be starting this project one building at a time this winter. All of the skyscrapers(except the Empire State Building) and the stadium were scratch-built in my garage over the past six years. The street lighting system consists of 31 lights and is from Walthers. The EL tracks surround the downtown area and I mainly use this for trolley traffic. The mainline surrounds the various neighborhoods of the city and I am currently working on a expansion plan for the future that will create a more neighborhood feel around the city center. I hope to be posting more updates soon.
Indeed...yourself and others have stated why folks don't do more urban/city layouts.
The nice thing is model railroading can be a lifetime hobby..we hope and pray anyone who gets into the hobby; remains.
My layout, once built; will be a freelanced version of a section of Downtown Columbus, suburban Clintonville, "Maxtown Crossing", Sunbury, Centerburg, Lewis Center, and Delaware, Ohio..
Yeah, that sounds like a lot..but with compressed modeling, theater tricks, and recycle scenes from previous modeling endavours..I think I can pull it off..in ten years! LOLOLOLOL!!!!
Look for the Columbus Division of the Cinci Central Railway System.... in MRR's 90th year issue!