Wow, thanks again guys for the effort to help me... I think I am going to just run the engines which ever way they are facing. But I am probably going to put a small single track turntable at the end of my staging yard..... And we'll see about an old wooden one later on at another time to put down on the sceniced part.
Mike
jecorbett Several responders have pointed out instances where steam ran in reverse but what about the doodlebug. Were they equipped with controls on the opposite end so they could run in reverse ala MU commuter trains.
Some doodlebugs were equipped with controls at both ends. An example of one still in operation is Wilmington & Western's ex-PRR 4662, which has controls, a headlight, and a pilot on the rear end. There is a photo of it on their website www.wwrr.com , but it doesn't show the rear end.
p.s. although most people think it's entirely ficticious, the Atlas turntable is actually based on a "covered pit" type of turntable that did in fact exist on some old-time railroads like logging railroads serving areas where snow was a problem. It's rarely (if ever) modelled, but in places like the Great Lakes region, logging was primarily done in winter so snow could be an issue. At 9" the Atlas TT should have no trouble with a logging Shay, Climax etc.
MPRR So is there anything that states when an engine has a trailing truck? Or are there only specific ones that do? Or would I have to modify? Mike
So is there anything that states when an engine has a trailing truck? Or are there only specific ones that do? Or would I have to modify?
Trailing trucks generally were there to support the firebox, although a few tank engines had trailing wheels to help them run in both directions. I know there were some logging 2-8-2Ts and some commuter passenger engines that were IIRC 4-6-4Ts. (And yes, T is for Tank...Thomas is an 0-6-0T.)
Anyway, engines like a 4-6-0 had to have a narrow enough firebox to fit between the drive wheels. If you made the engine frame longer and put the firebox behind the drivers, you could make it as wide as the boiler. Bigger firebox, bigger fire, more heat, more steam...more power!! However you had to support the firebox, so the 4-6-0 had to be a 4-6-2, the 2-8-0 became a 2-8-2 etc.
Eventually in the 1920's with the need for more power to pull the heavy heavyweight steel passenger cars that were replacing the lighter wood ones, it was discovered that with a 4-wheel trailing truck you could get a really huge firebox and "superpower". Of course you usually had to have a mechanical stoker to get the coal in fast enough to keep the fire up!! So then you had the 4-6-4 and 4-8-4...and 4-8-8-4.
Anyway back to the original question. Running backwards seems to be one of those things that model railroaders hate to do because it "looks wrong" but that real railroads did fairly often. It wasn't unusual in steam days to have a branch served by a small engine that ran foward going in and backwards coming out or vice-versa. That being said, a lot of railroads did provide at least a small "armstrong" turntable at the end of the branch if they could find a way to do it.
Part of the reason road-switcher diesels like the BL-2 (EMD's "Branch Line" road switcher) and GP etc. were popular is railroads could assign them to branchlines and eliminate the turntable as the diesels ran equally well either way - they could even be ordered with dual controls.
I'm reading this thread with great interest because the same thought hit me a few days ago and I planned on posting the same question. In my case, I have planned a fairly length branch line to be added when I get my mainline fully scenicked. The branchline will be served by a pair of 4-6-0s and a doodlebug. My layout is freelanced but I imagine this branchline as being about 25 scale miles long. Would a prototype railroad run engines of this type in reverse for that length. Several responders have pointed out instances where steam ran in reverse but what about the doodlebug. Were they equipped with controls on the opposite end so they could run in reverse ala MU commuter trains.
Just to add another thought to this, the Hocking Valley Scenic Railroad runs a push-pull operation. The engine pushes the consist from Nelsonville to Logan, OH, about 12 miles, then runs on the forward end for the return trip. How common would this practice have been on short line railroads.
Allegheny2-6-6-6This was not necessarily the case all the time. Many turntables on smaller branch lone railroads were actually hand operated. They would have a team of men and or horses to turn the table via a long handle for lack of a better word. These were typically made of wood and serviced small engines.
What they called an "Armstrong" turntable..............
Alantrains All good information on this thread. I have a slightly different reason for asking the same question. Is there a reason for turning model locos on a layout which is essencially a circle/oval where the trains running clockwise are only making right turns and the ones running anticlockwise are only making left turns? ie. Is flange wear a problems with models? I know it would take a long time to wear out model flanges, but is it likely to be a problem? cheers
All good information on this thread.
I have a slightly different reason for asking the same question.
Is there a reason for turning model locos on a layout which is essencially a circle/oval where the trains running clockwise are only making right turns and the ones running anticlockwise are only making left turns? ie. Is flange wear a problems with models? I know it would take a long time to wear out model flanges, but is it likely to be a problem?
cheers
Last September, I rode on a museum railroad in Carson City, Nevada. The train ran on a simple oval but it did have wye at one end of the loop. If I remember right, they would reverse direction the train ran for each run and use the wye to turn the engine. The did this to even out the wear and tear on the wheels.
As others have said, in your situation, there is no need to turn locos. However, if you just don't like the sight/thought of running a loco backwards (I struggle with that myself), then you could have small turntables at either end in staging, just for the purpose of turning the loco around. There was an article recently in Model Railroader (I think) that described how to build a simple, no-frills turntable whose sole purpose in life was to rotate an engine 180 degrees - no scenery, details, prototypical accuracy, etc. For a logging engine, it wouldn't have to be that big. You could probably use an off-the-shelf Atlas turntable instead.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
I have a small point to point layout and I originally planned to run my Shays in both directions. I found that operations became a little too routine, so I extended the layout and put a reversing loop at one end and a turntable at the other. I also use the reversing loop (most of it is in a tunnel) as a staging track and I now require all locos to run forwards on the main line. This gives me more to do than just run the train from one end to the other.
I read NG&SLG and they have published articles depicting turntables that are intended just to turn locos around (there is a feeder but no other track). Such a turntable would be farily simple to build and it wouldn't take up much space.
Anyway, while turning Shays and Heislers is not really necessary per prototype practice, adding the capability to do so can make your layout more fun to build and run.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Glad to help!
Hudson If their are digits other than 0 as the last number in the Whyte classification then the engine has a trailing truck. For example: 4-8-2 4-6-2 4-4-2 All have two wheel trailing trucks (last number) 4-6-4 4-8-4 2-8-4 These have 4 wheel trailing trucks 4-4-0 2-8-0 4-6-0 0-8-0 No trailing trucks.
If their are digits other than 0 as the last number in the Whyte classification then the engine has a trailing truck.
For example:
4-8-2
4-6-2
4-4-2
All have two wheel trailing trucks (last number)
4-6-4
4-8-4
2-8-4
These have 4 wheel trailing trucks
4-4-0
2-8-0
4-6-0
0-8-0
No trailing trucks.
steam locomotive drive wheels had tires that were a shrink fit onto the wheel centers. these could be replaced when worn past the acceptable limits or when they developed flat spots. rail on the other hand was constantly subject to wear on the gauge side of the outer rail on curves. sometimes it got so bad the wheel flanges were hitting the angle bars on jointed track. when this rail reached the limit of wear permitted, (i think it was about 2') it was replaced and often then used for tangent track in yards or on secondary tracks. some roads used rail lubricators on their sharpest curves. when the powder river basin coal business really took off some years back, the Burlington was having a problem with rail on curves wearing out faster than they could replace it. in my 45 years of HO modeling, i have never worn out any rail or wheels but i see where that could be a problem on a large club or display layout. i think the original O scale layout at the museum in chicago had that problem near the end.
grizlump
"A rod locomotive which had frequent, long-distance backwards runs would have a headlight facing rearward and a tender, if any, that permitted good rearward visibility."
The same goes for helpers in many cases...........switchers too.
Hi,
I say this as my opinion, and obviously can not support it with facts.........
I believe you would have to run a given train "hundreds or thousands" of times around a loop before you would see wear that would make a difference. Of course if you had super tight turns and ultra heavy locos it would take much fewer revolutions to do so.
I also believe the track would show wear before the loco would. I recall a few times reading of long term layouts where the track did wear down - usually on curves - and had to be replaced. But, I never heard of a loco's wheels wearing out (which is not to say it didn't happen).
But remember, a given section of track is subject to wear caused by every loco/car that runs over it, whereas a loco is only subject to wear for the time it is running.
For what its worth - and in closure - I wouldn't lose sleep over getting loco/track wear.
ENJOY !!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I can't say for sure, but I believe it must be so. It may not be quite the problem that we are worrying about, but the physics, especially if you are getting your engines around fairly tight turns regularly, suggests that it will eventually cause the flanges to wear down. Not only that, but what about the effects of continual sideplay and deflection on the rods on either side? Will the uneven wear on one face at the pivoting point, the cranks, mean an earlier worn through rod? It therefore seems to me that the longest you could get a drivetrain to last would be by frequently and evenly running each engine around curves in both directions.
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
Class Ones like Reading and CNJ had steam engines in commuter service that were not turned, they did move to the front of the train.
The CNJ had one unusual branch line that had no run arround track at its end. A locomotive headlight was mounted to the caboose. When the train was ready to return the locomotive pushed the train, probably not very long. This was in the diesel era and I am sure they did it during the steam days as well.
Hi!
Growing up near the C&NW northwest commuter race track in Chicago, it seemed like half the steam locos were going backwards pushing/pulling commuter trains to/from downtown. To be honest, it seemed "wrong" when they were going backwards. In any case it is obvious that the prototypes did in fact run locos backwards as necessary.
In my model world, I have always felt strongly that locos should only go forward - with the exception of switchers and the like of course. I always provided for reverse loops on my layouts, for I do like to see trains going in opposite directions and don't want to use to ol 0-5-0 switcher to turn them.
My last layout (demo'd last month) had two large reverse loops - one on the upper level and one on the lower level (staging/storage). Quite honestly, they were both a pain in the backside - although the upper one looked pretty nice and "did the job". The layout was DC, and more often than not I would get the polarity switch wrong and cause a stall on a heretofore smooth run. And, the loop took up a lot of room that negated the "land use" for industries or whatever.
Soooo, the new one (now in the first stages of construction) has no reverse loops. I am wiring for DCC and realize the polarity issue is a mute point with the "reversers", but the fact is the loops still take up too much room that could be better used.
Looks like my 6 steamers will either be going backwards or turned by hand afterall!
The T means "tank", although it could mean "tenderless". Seriously, it stands for "tank engine", and as Mark has stated, the water reservoir comprises either a saddle tank or side tanks. The saddle tank is draped in a crescent over the boiler which, after its contents gets warmed up, is great for feeding into the boiler.
The Kamloops Heritage Railway, about which I posted photos two years ago, uses an ex-CN 2-8-0 for an excursion from just east of Kamloops to Armstrong about 70 miles away. There is no way to turn the engine at Armstrong, so it is merely sent to the other end of the consist once a local diesel switcher swaps the caboose to what was the head end on the outbound trip. The Consolidation trundles along all the way back to Kamloops in reverse at the same speed, over the same track.
MPRR Does the T at the end of 2-8-2T mean that it has a trailing truck?
Does the T at the end of 2-8-2T mean that it has a trailing truck?
Not at all. The "T" means the locomotive's fuel and water is carried on the locomotive, not a separate tender.
Mark
Thanks for all the great info guys. Thats good to know about the crown sheet and keeping water over it. Does the T at the end of 2-8-2T mean that it has a trailing truck? And if so I should just make sure I have those kind of steamers to be able to run in reverse more efficiently, right?
There are multiple examples of steam operations that did not have a method to turn the locomotive. The Buffalo Creek & Gauley (which made connections with a logging line) was mentioned above. I just viewed (the first time) the DVD "Narrow Gauge East of the Sierra" about the Southern Pacific narrow gauge in Nevada, and there was film of a run up the line with the 4-6-0 locomotive running backward (with tender and extra water car first) up the line for miles to pick up some cars. Although there was a turntable at the far end of the line, they ran backward to pick up some loads rather than put in the extra mileage to get to a turntable.
There are multiple other examples in my books on short-lines, and I would venture that the majority of logging lines used "out and back" operations without turning facilities most of the time. Notice the number of western logging lines that used 2-6-2T and 2-8-2T type locomotives where they operated equally well in either direction. Mechanically, it made little difference to the locomotive, although speed had to be a consideration for rod locomotives without trailing trucks in reverse. At the Cass, West Virginia example, it was generally more important to keep the locomotive headed UP the hill to keep water over the crown sheet on the grade than to turn the locomotive.
Locomotive servicing facilities are "neat" and exude the railroad feeling, so we tend to model more of them than an actual railroad would have supported. I model an HO could-have-been mining and logging short line around WWI. My new shelf layout does incorporate a (single) turntable that was transplanted from the earlier large layout, but trains have to run out-and-back. I position the locomotive so that it will be in "normal" boiler-first operation when it is pulling the loads. Empty hoppers go to the mine behind a tender-first locomotive, and then the loaded train comes back in normal configuration, which I surmise is a safety rule for my line.
No reason to be stuck, Mike.... just put in a speed restriction for reverse operations and enjoy.
Bill
Mike,
Your logging like really does not have much need for a turntable. Geared engines like Shay's really run fine in either direction. 'Rod' engines can be a different story. Something like a 2-8-0 will track better in forward. That said, the Buffalo Creek & Gauley ran their ex-B&O 2-8-0's without turning them. They factor is if they are going to be run at 'main line speed' - then pilot wheels are needed. Manny logging 'rod' engines had trailing wheels due to the need for lots of reverse running. Wye's and Turntables can take up a lot of real estate. I have a turntable with a 3 stall roundhouse. It has a 3 track 'lead' and eats up about 7 ft of space. The good part is that it is on 'L' off of the main layout space!
With your Shay's - make sure that right hand side with all the 'action' is out so the visitors can see it!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
If the train goes from point A to point B and then return to A, one will need two locomotive turning facilities, one at point A and one at point B, if the locomotive is to run forward in both directions.
If the train goes from point A to point A, and then reverses directions to return to point A as on some model railroads, only one turning facilitiy is needed.
Backwoods logging operations such as where gear locomotives were common, wouldn't have locomotive turning facilities. I don't know of any, but I'll allow the possibility that someone did somewhere.
That's why logging railroads sometimes favored locomotives with trailing trucks, not for carrying weight of a large firebox, but for guiding "pilot" trucks at the back. That is what differentiates logging Mikados from regular Mikados. The style of the trailing truck is different. (Normally, trailing trucks on locomotives are for carrying firebox weight rather than for guiding. You'll note on SP's cab-forward 4-8-8-2 locomotives that the leading truck is guiding in its design even though it is under the firebox.)
A rod locomotive which had frequent, long-distance backwards runs would have a headlight facing rearward and a tender, if any, that permitted good rearward visibility.
I have period video showing Norfolk & Western's huge Y6b Mallets running backwards at track speed at the end of a freight. I can be, and was, done.
MPRR What do you all think about the need to turn your engines? Though I realize that certain ops call for it. I definatly don't think I have the room for a wye, but becasue of the locale I don't know that a turntable will fit the scene. I'm doing 1920's logging and don't model a large city that would have a servicing facility with turntable. I'll probably have shays that can run in either direction, thats fine.. But what about the other steamers that come and go? Should I just plan on having them run backwards also. Or another option could be to have a small scratchbuilt turntable just for turning... I'm kind of stuck on the idea nd could use some input. Mike
What do you all think about the need to turn your engines? Though I realize that certain ops call for it.
I definatly don't think I have the room for a wye, but becasue of the locale I don't know that a turntable will fit the scene. I'm doing 1920's logging and don't model a large city that would have a servicing facility with turntable. I'll probably have shays that can run in either direction, thats fine.. But what about the other steamers that come and go? Should I just plan on having them run backwards also. Or another option could be to have a small scratchbuilt turntable just for turning... I'm kind of stuck on the idea nd could use some input.
My coal-hauling private railway runs a motley collection of tank steamers that are never turned end-for-end, even though there are turntables available at both ends of the line. Most of the route climbs a four percent grade, and the front office has decreed that the firebox end of the boiler will always be downhill, to assure that there will be water over the crown sheet.
So, why the turntables? The one at the interchange yard belongs to the JNR, which DOES turn road steam end for end. The one at the colliery is used to turn cars which have to be unloaded from a specific side and arrive 'wrong side to,' and to turn single-ended brake vans to keep the markers pointed in the right direction. It also turns the business car so the observation platform will be at the rear.
Tank locos can operate in either direction at their maximum safe speed. If a tender-equipped steamer is to be backed for any distance, it is usually required to do so at restricted speed. That said, there were coal-originating branches without turntables all over Appalachia, and many a mallet backed from the branch junction to the mine or vice versa.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)