Don Zsteinjr In this case - who knows ? Don hasn't really described in much detail how things look left and right of this scene on his layout. Okay, as stated previously, the branch dead ends into an industry across an interlocking and also dead ends in the gravel plant down the tracks to the left of the cement plant location. Here is an attempt to show the area under discussion. The tracks in bold are the branchline in question:
steinjr In this case - who knows ? Don hasn't really described in much detail how things look left and right of this scene on his layout.
Okay, as stated previously, the branch dead ends into an industry across an interlocking and also dead ends in the gravel plant down the tracks to the left of the cement plant location. Here is an attempt to show the area under discussion. The tracks in bold are the branchline in question:
Looks like a nice, big, interesting layout that it would be fun to run trains on! Not too crowded and with biggish industries.
Thanks for showing us this image - I'd love to see your whole layout plan some day!
Smile, Stein
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
bladeslingersteinjr Kinda hard to read the text on the tracks. How about something like this ? Would take relocating the loading shed to the other side of the silos - but that's not hard to do. I like your overall idea here, but working for a real railroad gives me a simpler insight. the delivering train would probably hold the empties, and proceed to the far end switch, reach in and grab the loads, then set them out on the mainline. then shove the empties back to a spot on the pit, cutoff and then come out on the opposite end switch to grab the loads and return to where it originated from...assuming that this was the last stop on the line, otherwise, they'd probably go back out the original switch, couple up and take the loads with them to the next destination in that direction. and if you were holding some additional cars on the head end for the "next" destination, this would work perfectly with that idea too.
steinjr Kinda hard to read the text on the tracks. How about something like this ? Would take relocating the loading shed to the other side of the silos - but that's not hard to do.
Kinda hard to read the text on the tracks.
How about something like this ? Would take relocating the loading shed to the other side of the silos - but that's not hard to do.
I like your overall idea here, but working for a real railroad gives me a simpler insight. the delivering train would probably hold the empties, and proceed to the far end switch, reach in and grab the loads, then set them out on the mainline. then shove the empties back to a spot on the pit, cutoff and then come out on the opposite end switch to grab the loads and return to where it originated from...assuming that this was the last stop on the line, otherwise, they'd probably go back out the original switch, couple up and take the loads with them to the next destination in that direction. and if you were holding some additional cars on the head end for the "next" destination, this would work perfectly with that idea too.
Good (and important) point. On a real railroad you probably could safely assume that the main line will continue left for at least 16 car lengths + an engine length (6-700 feet in real life, about 7 1/2 feet in H0 scale, assuming 40 foot cars) past the leftmost switch on the double ended siding, and that an engine could haul 16 cars (8 empties, 8 loads) towards the left without trouble. That is not necessarily a given on a model railroad where the owner has not specified how the line looks further to the left and further to the right from this one scene.
You could do it as straight trailing moves exactly like you describe. You don't even strictly need the a double ended siding with the four switches shown (unless you intend to run around a cut of cars that will fit between the switches on the main before the return trip trip towards the right and need a switcher engine pocket on the leftmost end of the double ended siding).
For a real railroad, you could have a much simpler setup with just one single trailing switch on the branch line and a single spur going rightwards from the switch on the branch line through the loader by the silos, and do a straight trailing switch move like you described above. At the end of your switching on this branch line (whether there be further industries to be switched to the left or not), you could just back up all the way to the right on the branch line when going back with the loads. With or without a shoving platform or a second engine at the right end of the train.
But I think the most elegant and flexible model railroad setup that maximizes switching potential with minimum requirements for extra space to the left of the scene is the one Dave H described - putting two crossovers tail to tail between the main and the siding slightly to the left of the loading shed.
Where an arriving train with empties just has to pull forward (leftwards) on the branch line far enough past the leftmost crossover , then shove empties back (rightwards) onto the loading track and then pull forward back on the branch line again. Then you either continue left on the branch line to switch more industries or move right past the rightmost crossover, back into the siding with loads, pick them up and depart rightwards with loads.
You can have a small industry switcher (like a trackmobile) or a car puller (imaginary or implemented as a small hidden motor on a timing circuit pulling on a string that pulls the cars being loaded leftwards under the loader) as a cool effect. More complex track work with either two crossovers after each other or a double crossover - which probably would not be all that popular with a real railroad, compared with the single switch and single straight spur in the example above, but saves linear space, which is what you usually run short of on a model railroad.
Btw - the Dave H solution also is good for allowing two long(ish) level spurs for the loading track and the loaded cars track, while only demanding that a relatively short part of the mainline (or branch line in this case) to be straight and level (the length with the two crossovers). You can have the mainline climb/drop on both sides of the crossovers - no requirement that the mainline needs to be level for cars left not to roll away. And it is dead easy to just mirror this track configuration over on the wall side of the main - where the spurs can run all the way into the corners. As a layout design trick, this is a neat one that gets quite a few birds with one stone.
Following the prototype's practice is a great idea in principle. But on a model railroad, you don't always have enough linear length to do things strictly prototypical.
In this case - who knows ? Don hasn't really described in much detail how things look left and right of this scene on his layout.
Robby,
If you mean your benchwork is 2' deep, you should have plenty of room to work with. My benchwork in the area drawn is only 28" deep. I will have to modify the conveyor to fit the set of structures in place, but that shouldn't be a problem. If you use all of the buildings as designed, the whole plant stretches out about 4' in length (left to right).
Good luck!
I llike the one on the top of the page. I am also doing a cement plant, and have been looking at the ideas on this topic. I thought about doing a siding into the cement plant, and maybe one off to the side for extra switching. I don't think I will have enough room on the layout for most of the ideas alreayd posted. I have about 2ft to work with.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
steinjr Kinda hard to read the text on the tracks. How about something like this ? Would take relocating the loading shed to the other side of the silos - but that's not hard to do. Smile,Stein `
`
HHPATH56 Why don't you install a double-slip switch, which will give you both options and a lot more? Bob hahn
Why don't you install a double-slip switch, which will give you both options and a lot more? Bob hahn
Bob,
I don't understand....where are you suggesting the double-slip be installed? Most prototypes would probably avoid a double-slip unless it was the only workable solution. I don't see how a double-slip would help the situation.
Thanks,
Don Zsteinjr So, you have dropped the idea that your branchline main will have an incline from the midpoint along the wall up towards to the left ? If your branchline main has an incline, your passing siding also will have an incline (since a passing siding is connected to the branchline main at both ends, and thus need to be at the same elevation as the branchline main at both ends), and you will have trouble leaving cars in that siding. Can't slip anything past you, can we Stein? The branchline main still has a grade....and the siding is flat for about 90% of its length, then it also rises on a 2% grade to meet the main at the far left end of the drawing......remind me to never bluff in a poker game against you!
steinjr So, you have dropped the idea that your branchline main will have an incline from the midpoint along the wall up towards to the left ? If your branchline main has an incline, your passing siding also will have an incline (since a passing siding is connected to the branchline main at both ends, and thus need to be at the same elevation as the branchline main at both ends), and you will have trouble leaving cars in that siding.
So, you have dropped the idea that your branchline main will have an incline from the midpoint along the wall up towards to the left ?
If your branchline main has an incline, your passing siding also will have an incline (since a passing siding is connected to the branchline main at both ends, and thus need to be at the same elevation as the branchline main at both ends), and you will have trouble leaving cars in that siding.
Can't slip anything past you, can we Stein? The branchline main still has a grade....and the siding is flat for about 90% of its length, then it also rises on a 2% grade to meet the main at the far left end of the drawing......remind me to never bluff in a poker game against you!
Sorry - I was not trying to "call a bluff" or any such thing, just to point out a possible operating problem. If the math of those inclines work for you, then by all means go for it.
Merry Christmas!
Smile, Stein, who is a pretty lousy poker player - not good at bluffing at all
Don ZMike, Thanks for the input. After many hours of studying and arranging paper templates, I have come up with this setting as shown in the diagram. The cement plant has been moved back and will fit in the area shown after I shorten the conveyor leading up to the silos. I have created a passing siding for the branchline so trains will have an easier time working the different industries in the area. I know a train should be able to work a plant without fouling the main, but then again this is a branchline and the only traffic is going to and from the customers located along the branchline.A train of empty cement hoppers arriving from the yard can ease into the siding, cut off the power and then run back down the main to the cement plant lead. The power then pulls the loads from the loading track and then stages them in the storage track. Once the loading track is clear, the empties are pulled back and then pushed into the loading track. The power then couples onto the loads and departs back to the yard.
Mike,
Thanks for the input. After many hours of studying and arranging paper templates, I have come up with this setting as shown in the diagram. The cement plant has been moved back and will fit in the area shown after I shorten the conveyor leading up to the silos. I have created a passing siding for the branchline so trains will have an easier time working the different industries in the area. I know a train should be able to work a plant without fouling the main, but then again this is a branchline and the only traffic is going to and from the customers located along the branchline.
A train of empty cement hoppers arriving from the yard can ease into the siding, cut off the power and then run back down the main to the cement plant lead. The power then pulls the loads from the loading track and then stages them in the storage track. Once the loading track is clear, the empties are pulled back and then pushed into the loading track. The power then couples onto the loads and departs back to the yard.
From a later post by Don:
Don Z
You should should show where the passing (ie double ended) siding connect to the branchline main at the left end of the siding. The length of that double ended siding is a relevant design parameter when picturing how you will do your switching of that new industry at the bottom right. It might be smart to move the branchoff point for the industry spur left or right, depending on how long that double ended siding will be, and how long cuts of cars you plan to shove into or pull from the industry spur.
TZ,
I didn't want to go to the expense of buying sectional track to do a dry run, so I made paper templates of track and placed them as in the drawing. I ran the switching scenario in my mind dozens of times and thought what I had drawn would work because the extra moves would slow down an operating session, but I don't want that part of the layout to be a pain so it becomes the orphaned stepchild.
I think the last drawing works much better.....but I could be wrong! Thanks for the help.
GraniteRailroader Your conductors are going to hate you if it's going to require extra moves to switch out the plant. There's no reason that the switch crew can't go in with the empties, swing the loads to the main, and shove the empties back in. In reality, that's probably how a crew would do it anyways. There's no reason to make the extra moves to the storage track back and forth. The switchback for the new customer is unnecessary as well. Either switch them off the siding, or get rid of that three way switch.
Your conductors are going to hate you if it's going to require extra moves to switch out the plant.
There's no reason that the switch crew can't go in with the empties, swing the loads to the main, and shove the empties back in. In reality, that's probably how a crew would do it anyways. There's no reason to make the extra moves to the storage track back and forth.
The switchback for the new customer is unnecessary as well.
Either switch them off the siding, or get rid of that three way switch.
That's why I like coming here...plain as day, but I never saw the answer like you did! How does this version look?
Don,
After thinking about this for a while, I was just getting back on to post my comments and I see you've made a decision. I always watch these discussions with some interest. Various ideas get tossed around, changes made, repeat. It seems almost invariably that I like the "original" better than the "final".
I was going to suggest putting a plywood prairie in the area, setting up one of the arrangements with sectional track and actually run testing it. Nothing like really running a set up to discover its shortfalls. After a while of taking notes switch the track to one of the other arrangements and try it. Then choose.
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The track along the bottom of the drawing is now available for a new industry. I plan on having the loading track inside the building. The stub that sticks out the right end of the building will hold an EMD Critter that will shuffle the cars in and out of the building. Once all of the cars are loaded, they will be pushed to the opposite end of the track to be picked up by a passing train.
So, here's the latest version of the drawing....
Once again, thanks to everyone for their input.
Hi Don
Is there any possibility of adding real estate by filling in the ninety degree corner of the aisle? A couple of inches there might allow the curved loading track in Stein's first attempt.
As for loads in, your initial post seems to indicate that there is not really any open space on the other side of the branch from the silos, so I won't go there. But would it be completely verboten to add a delivery track off of what looks like the mainline? Maybe it could nestle against the backdrop at the very top of the diagram.
And Dave -- that's brilliant. I'm going to have to remember that track arrangement. But I still might go with Stein's because it would be easier on the caboose, picking it off of the empties in their loading track and tacking it on to the loads waiting on the branch, instead of backing the full loaded train onto the caboose waiting on the branch between the crossovers.
Mike W.
Don ZHere is a rough drawing of the area that I'm trying to work in.... By trying to shoehorn this industry onto my layout, I'm adding traffic to increase the customer base. As it was, I only had 5 customers for my railroad to service. I have quite a few cement hoppers and I'm trying to incorporate them into the operation plan. Thanks, Don Z.
Here is a rough drawing of the area that I'm trying to work in....
By trying to shoehorn this industry onto my layout, I'm adding traffic to increase the customer base. As it was, I only had 5 customers for my railroad to service. I have quite a few cement hoppers and I'm trying to incorporate them into the operation plan.
I believe very large bins filled with bearings several inches across would assist in the crushing into powder. I think they rotate along thier length axis and periodically empty out, but not sure.
Coal fired fly ash either gets dumped (No epa around) or sold to ready mix plants to mix into cement to make concrete along with other stuff.
Decide which way the loaded cars are going to go and then route a train to grab them loads and out of there without so much scooting about. I will presume that the branchline upgrade past the loaded cars isnt where the loads are going.
Alot of cement places simply stuck the railcar directly into the silos themselves and unloaded straight down into the basement where the stuff is then silo'ed above.
If you are making cement and need to ship out You are going to have dozens and dozens going out each week to customers all over the place.
Now that things are not exactly set in stone or cured yet, take some time to think things through.
Ram,
The crusher in this diagram is the unit that crushes the clinker after it comes out of the rotary kiln. The cement clinker is crushed into powder and then sent up the conveyor to be stored in the silos for loading out to rail cars.
To me it looks me like the loader is at the wrong end of the plant. rock is crushed in the crusher which is the start. It ends in the bulk storage building. That is where I think the loading should be. One thing I would want would be a building to fill bags of cement, which would be shipped out in box cars. This building would also recieve paper to make the bags.
Ok i'll admit it you lost me way back at the start but it seems to me your missing a good opportunity to use a loads in empties out arrangement for this area by putting 2 sets of buildings back to back and accessing them from either end
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
There's a cement plant here in central Virginia that uses three or so spur tracks for what seems to be both inbound and outbound. Inbound traffic seems interesting and assorted, I do think you might want to consider this. They get coal hoppers for fuel, and I hear that the coal ash is then mixed with some of the cement batches as an additive. I've seen covered hoppers of gypsum companies, and a shipment of calcium carbonate, at least that's what the cars said. Not sure what they do with the calcium carbonate. I've driven by there like a dozen times, and always check out the cars on the tracks. It's always interesting.
While they're located basically adjacent to a limestone quarry, I also understand that some plants are located next to clay pits instead (clay being an important ingredient for cement, in addition to limestone) and some of those plants use rail to ship limestone instead.
Don Z steinjr Okay - I got hooked. How about something like this, then ? I was forced to reduce train lengths to 6 or 7 cars (although I plan using 40' cars, and you will be using 34' hoppers, so you might have a *little* leeway). Engine arrives at concrete plant lead with 6-7 empty cars. Backs some empties into the empties holding track Backs rest of empties into loading track, with first car spotted under loader and two past backs up, grabs outbound loads, departs to the right As cars have been loaded, they are moved over to the loaded car holding track - by trackmobile or front end loader or something. When all cars on the loading track have been loaded, an engine needs to respot cars from the empties holding track to the loading track. Stein, I'm going to print out this design and study on it up at the layout....I think I will leave my loading track out at the edge of the layout (as in Option A) because the loading track will be longer (will hold more cars) in that placement. I'm also going to consider realigning the branchline main so I can eliminate the turnout needed for the branch to continue on to the mine. Thanks again, Don Z.
steinjr Okay - I got hooked. How about something like this, then ? I was forced to reduce train lengths to 6 or 7 cars (although I plan using 40' cars, and you will be using 34' hoppers, so you might have a *little* leeway). Engine arrives at concrete plant lead with 6-7 empty cars. Backs some empties into the empties holding track Backs rest of empties into loading track, with first car spotted under loader and two past backs up, grabs outbound loads, departs to the right As cars have been loaded, they are moved over to the loaded car holding track - by trackmobile or front end loader or something. When all cars on the loading track have been loaded, an engine needs to respot cars from the empties holding track to the loading track.
Okay - I got hooked. How about something like this, then ?
I was forced to reduce train lengths to 6 or 7 cars (although I plan using 40' cars, and you will be using 34' hoppers, so you might have a *little* leeway).
Stein,
I'm going to print out this design and study on it up at the layout....I think I will leave my loading track out at the edge of the layout (as in Option A) because the loading track will be longer (will hold more cars) in that placement. I'm also going to consider realigning the branchline main so I can eliminate the turnout needed for the branch to continue on to the mine.
Thanks again,
Eliminating the switch on the main is a good move. Not s sure about swapping which of the tracks is the loading track. Better game out the moves on paper:
How would loads and empties move throught the concrete plant yard if the lower right track is the loading track ? Key question seems to be "where would the loaded cars end up if the lower track on the right is the loading track?"
If loaded cars ends up directly across from the loading track (ie at lower left), you now start blocking the tail track you need to pull or spot cars at the loading track. When you arrive with a new trainload of empties, you will need to first remove the loaded cars from the lower left and find somewhere else to stash them before you can start spotting inbound empties at the empties holding track and at the loading track. Even if you start by moving the loads from the lower left to the upper left, it still is an extra move.
If loaded cars are supposed to end up on the upper track on the left as they are loaded, you now need to "saw" the loaded cars back and forth as they are loaded - first left, then right up the ladder, then left into the upper track. Can be done, but it is messy, and maybe looks a little unrealistic in terms of postulating a car puller (ie ye olde 0-5-0) - you need to line both switches ever time a car is moved.
What you gain in extra loading track length, you quite possibly lose again in a shorter holding track for empties. You would have to play around with tracks to test if you gain more than you lose or lose more than you gain or break even in this respect.
In contrast, if you load on the upper right - you leave the upper double slip lined straight across to pull loaded cars across to upper left by hand (either one at the time or whole cut of cars), simulating a car puller. Only time you need to line switches is when an engine either is moving more empties from the empties holding track to the loading track, or when an engine is arriving with more empties and will pull the loads before leaving.
But the best arrangement, if it had at all been possible to tack on a longer loading track to the right of the silos, is the one Dave pointed out - two crossovers facing each other from the main. There it takes one trailing move to spot empties, and loads can be pulled in one simple move, too - either right away, with the engine returning to the yard with the loads, or later, when the train returns from switching the industries further up the branch line to the left. And it is entirely believable with a car puller. Train crew leaves crossovers on both main and siding lined for straight path when departing. Car puller is simulated by moving the cut of cars by hand. You could possibly even make a little motorized car puller on a timer circuit as a pretty cool effect.
Anyways - your layout, your decission :-)
Don ZI am adding the Valley Cement Plant kit to my layout and I'm trying to decide which track arrangement is the better choice. The cement hoppers (empty) would be coming from the yard located at the far right of this drawing. Here are the 2 options: Option A: Option B:Thanks for any advice you can give....Don Z.
I am adding the Valley Cement Plant kit to my layout and I'm trying to decide which track arrangement is the better choice. The cement hoppers (empty) would be coming from the yard located at the far right of this drawing. Here are the 2 options:
Option A:
Option B:
Thanks for any advice you can give....
Main difference relative to your plan A (which is not as bad as plan B):
I am not claiming that this is the most optimal plan possible - hopefully someone else can spot ways of optimizing further.
Now, it really is bedtime for me.Good night!
Don Z markpierceI don't understand why you eschew in-bound freight. While cement plants are commonly located near limestone, they aren't necessarily self sufficient. Mark, As I stated in an earlier reply, the main structures for the plant are on an elevated section of benchwork. There is no way to get rail service to the plant from the layout. Any 'inbound freight' would come from off layout via the backdrop side of the plant.
markpierceI don't understand why you eschew in-bound freight. While cement plants are commonly located near limestone, they aren't necessarily self sufficient.
As I stated in an earlier reply, the main structures for the plant are on an elevated section of benchwork. There is no way to get rail service to the plant from the layout. Any 'inbound freight' would come from off layout via the backdrop side of the plant.
That's why they invented conveyers. As with most prototypes, the limestone comes by truck or conveyer to the plant from a local source. How does fuel get to the plant? Why deny yourself? You'll have a more interesting operation if the railroad delivers coal where it can be dumped onto the conveyer and fed to the plant. Most of us are looking for reasons to increase traffic on our layouts, not to decrease it.
Mark
Last one before bedtime (it is 11:30 pm over here in Norway and tomorrow is a work day) - here I have tried to restore the two industry tracks you had facing towards the left:
As always - it is just a suggestion - you are free to grab it, modify it or ignore it as you like
Smile,Stein
steinjr Hmmm - how about something like this, then ? You would have to spot cars for loading three at a time, and have a car puller or something pull the cars to be loaded left through the loader into the loaded cars track. Then an engine would have to go grab three more cars from the empties holding track, and spot them at the loading track. Smile, Stein
Hmmm - how about something like this, then ?
You would have to spot cars for loading three at a time, and have a car puller or something pull the cars to be loaded left through the loader into the loaded cars track.
Then an engine would have to go grab three more cars from the empties holding track, and spot them at the loading track.
I appreciate your efforts....my benchwork is 28" deep from the top of the drawing. Your version is too deep for my existing benchwork. The spur you added for holding empties won't work; that are is already occupied by another track leading into the yard area. I'll see if I can copy that section of my track plan.