I am adding the Valley Cement Plant kit to my layout and I'm trying to decide which track arrangement is the better choice. The cement hoppers (empty) would be coming from the yard located at the far right of this drawing. Here are the 2 options:
Option A:
Option B:
Thanks for any advice you can give....
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
Both option have a nasty little S-curve in the main line. Option A allows a longer cut of cars to be pulled or pushed into the cement plant yard. Question. Do you have any tracks delivering raw materials in to the plant, unloading them?
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Don,
The first thing I noticed in your post was the photo of the GN F's. From that I assume you are a fellow GN modeler. Yea!
I am unable to read the track labels on your diagrams so let me ask:
My gut says it may not make much difference but a lot depends upon how tracks #3 & 4 (counting from the top down) are to be used. #3 is longer in the first drawing and #4 is longer in the second. If the length of either of these tracks is important that may dictate which is better.
Roger Johnson, Sedro Woolley WA
David,
Regarding the "nasty S-curve"...this is a branchline operation served by 4 axle power. The only cars traveling down this line will be 34' cement hoppers, 26' ore hoppers to a mine and 40' stock cars to a packing plant. The turnouts used are #5's, so I don't think I'll have any trouble with the cars or the track.
This cement plant is loads out only. The main structures for the cement plant will be on an elevated section of benchwork; the conveyor extends out to the silo above the tracks below. Option B seems to make switching at the plant more difficult. If any loads are spotted under the shed, the locos would have to cut the train off on the main, back down to spot the loads out of the way and then back the empties down into the plant, a few cars at a time.
Thanks,
skagitrailbird I am unable to read the track labels on your diagrams so let me ask: Where will the full loads go? Back to and through the yard? How are the stub tracks and the passing/runaround siding to be used? Do any of these tracks connect on the left to your mainline? My gut says it may not make much difference but a lot depends upon how tracks #3 & 4 (counting from the top down) are to be used. #3 is longer in the first drawing and #4 is longer in the second. If the length of either of these tracks is important that may dictate which is better.
Roger,
I tried to make the text large enough to read on the diagrams, but i guess I goofed!
The two tracks at the top of the diagram serve another industry located in the blank space to the left of those tracks.
Kinda hard to read the text on the tracks.
How about something like this ? Would take relocating the loading shed to the other side of the silos - but that's not hard to do.
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Don't like either of them, 2 is way worse than 1. With 1 you can load maybe 3-4 cars, with #2 you can only load 2, maybe 3 cars.
Why build such a big plant that can only load 3-4 cars at a time?
A plant that size should be able to load 20 cars easy. You need an arrangement that has 40 cars of room, 20 on one side of the loader for empties and 20 on the other side for loads.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
What Stein has posted is what I was thinking of, you wouldn't even need a plant switcher with that design, a car mover or winch would do it. I would move the left crossover right up as close to the right crossover as I could (keeping the right crossover where it is). The branch engine would pull up the main, past both crossovers, then shove the empties into loading track. Then move to the left and couple into the loads and depart to the right.
Another alternative would be to put the crossovers sorta where the conveyor crosses, but put the left hand crossover on the left and the right hand crossover on the right. the loader would go over the side track between the two crossvers. the branch train would arrive, shove empties onto the empty track through the righthand crossover on the right. Then it would come out onto the main to go back through the lefthand crossovers to get the loads to the left. It could then depart to the right. The industry winches or rolls the cars from right to left through the loader to open the empty track again.
Although the relatively short equipment you will be using can generally negotiate S curves OK, that is still best avoided anyway. I would go with the second plan. Is there any chance you could connect track #2 to #3 about even with the crossover between #4 and #5? If so, you cold avoid having to push either empties or loads through an S curve.When you bring empties in, the locomotive will have to push cars into the loading track. The second plan will permit the locomotive to pull empties through the S curve from the yard lead on to track #3, then push them down the ladder to the loading track. Loaded cars could be pulled from the loading track onto track #3, the locomotive could then run around them using track #2 and then pull them trough the S curve from #3 onto the yard lead.
If you can't connect #2 to #3 then I don't think it makes much difference. I would probably still go for the second plan since it leaves a longer clear track on the passing/runaround Track #4.
Roger
dehusmanWhat Stein has posted is what I was thinking of, you wouldn't even need a plant switcher with that design, a car mover or winch would do it. I would move the left crossover right up as close to the right crossover as I could (keeping the right crossover where it is). The branch engine would pull up the main, past both crossovers, then shove the empties into loading track. Then move to the left and couple into the loads and depart to the right.
Bingo - that would be even better, wouldn't it ? Something like this:
Smile, Stein
Some additional information....
Don ZSome additional information.... I don't have any space at the right end of the load track to extend the track. The branchline track (#3 down from the top) starts to climb in elevation to the left of the midpoint of the drawing Trains will only be about 8-10 cars maximum in length Thanks, Don Z.
Hmmm - how about something like this, then ?
You would have to spot cars for loading three at a time, and have a car puller or something pull the cars to be loaded left through the loader into the loaded cars track.
Then an engine would have to go grab three more cars from the empties holding track, and spot them at the loading track.
My first reaction was that the loading track should be on a double-ended track rather than a dead-end spur requiring switchback moves. A double-ended track would be more prototypical and can better handle a larger volume of cars. But Stein has already "beat me to the punch."
I don't understand why you eschew in-bound freight. While cement plants are commonly located near limestone, they aren't necessarily self sufficient. For instance, at the cement plant in Davenport, California (west of Santa Cruz) served by the UP, formerly SP, inbound traffic consists of empty covered hoppers and open hoppers filled with coal. Outbound loads are covered hoppers filled with cement and empty open hoppers. This would provide more interest and variety than merely hauling covered hoppers. You need a spur for the delivery of coal to fuel the plant. (Those Davenport cement trains are even more interesting because they run very slowly through the streets of downtown Santa Cruz, blocking traffic, and pass right by the Boardwalk where there is a huge wooden roller coaster.)
Mark
markpierceI don't understand why you eschew in-bound freight. While cement plants are commonly located near limestone, they aren't necessarily self sufficient.
As I stated in an earlier reply, the main structures for the plant are on an elevated section of benchwork. There is no way to get rail service to the plant from the layout. Any 'inbound freight' would come from off layout via the backdrop side of the plant.
steinjr Hmmm - how about something like this, then ? You would have to spot cars for loading three at a time, and have a car puller or something pull the cars to be loaded left through the loader into the loaded cars track. Then an engine would have to go grab three more cars from the empties holding track, and spot them at the loading track. Smile, Stein
Stein,
I appreciate your efforts....my benchwork is 28" deep from the top of the drawing. Your version is too deep for my existing benchwork. The spur you added for holding empties won't work; that are is already occupied by another track leading into the yard area. I'll see if I can copy that section of my track plan.
Last one before bedtime (it is 11:30 pm over here in Norway and tomorrow is a work day) - here I have tried to restore the two industry tracks you had facing towards the left:
As always - it is just a suggestion - you are free to grab it, modify it or ignore it as you like
Smile,Stein
Don Z markpierceI don't understand why you eschew in-bound freight. While cement plants are commonly located near limestone, they aren't necessarily self sufficient. Mark, As I stated in an earlier reply, the main structures for the plant are on an elevated section of benchwork. There is no way to get rail service to the plant from the layout. Any 'inbound freight' would come from off layout via the backdrop side of the plant.
That's why they invented conveyers. As with most prototypes, the limestone comes by truck or conveyer to the plant from a local source. How does fuel get to the plant? Why deny yourself? You'll have a more interesting operation if the railroad delivers coal where it can be dumped onto the conveyer and fed to the plant. Most of us are looking for reasons to increase traffic on our layouts, not to decrease it.
Here is a rough drawing of the area that I'm trying to work in....
By trying to shoehorn this industry onto my layout, I'm adding traffic to increase the customer base. As it was, I only had 5 customers for my railroad to service. I have quite a few cement hoppers and I'm trying to incorporate them into the operation plan.
Don ZI am adding the Valley Cement Plant kit to my layout and I'm trying to decide which track arrangement is the better choice. The cement hoppers (empty) would be coming from the yard located at the far right of this drawing. Here are the 2 options: Option A: Option B:Thanks for any advice you can give....Don Z.
Okay - I got hooked. How about something like this, then ?
I was forced to reduce train lengths to 6 or 7 cars (although I plan using 40' cars, and you will be using 34' hoppers, so you might have a *little* leeway).
Main difference relative to your plan A (which is not as bad as plan B):
I am not claiming that this is the most optimal plan possible - hopefully someone else can spot ways of optimizing further.
Now, it really is bedtime for me.Good night!
steinjr Okay - I got hooked. How about something like this, then ? I was forced to reduce train lengths to 6 or 7 cars (although I plan using 40' cars, and you will be using 34' hoppers, so you might have a *little* leeway). Engine arrives at concrete plant lead with 6-7 empty cars. Backs some empties into the empties holding track Backs rest of empties into loading track, with first car spotted under loader and two past backs up, grabs outbound loads, departs to the right As cars have been loaded, they are moved over to the loaded car holding track - by trackmobile or front end loader or something. When all cars on the loading track have been loaded, an engine needs to respot cars from the empties holding track to the loading track.
I'm going to print out this design and study on it up at the layout....I think I will leave my loading track out at the edge of the layout (as in Option A) because the loading track will be longer (will hold more cars) in that placement. I'm also going to consider realigning the branchline main so I can eliminate the turnout needed for the branch to continue on to the mine.
Thanks again,
Don Z steinjr Okay - I got hooked. How about something like this, then ? I was forced to reduce train lengths to 6 or 7 cars (although I plan using 40' cars, and you will be using 34' hoppers, so you might have a *little* leeway). Engine arrives at concrete plant lead with 6-7 empty cars. Backs some empties into the empties holding track Backs rest of empties into loading track, with first car spotted under loader and two past backs up, grabs outbound loads, departs to the right As cars have been loaded, they are moved over to the loaded car holding track - by trackmobile or front end loader or something. When all cars on the loading track have been loaded, an engine needs to respot cars from the empties holding track to the loading track. Stein, I'm going to print out this design and study on it up at the layout....I think I will leave my loading track out at the edge of the layout (as in Option A) because the loading track will be longer (will hold more cars) in that placement. I'm also going to consider realigning the branchline main so I can eliminate the turnout needed for the branch to continue on to the mine. Thanks again, Don Z.
Eliminating the switch on the main is a good move. Not s sure about swapping which of the tracks is the loading track. Better game out the moves on paper:
How would loads and empties move throught the concrete plant yard if the lower right track is the loading track ? Key question seems to be "where would the loaded cars end up if the lower track on the right is the loading track?"
If loaded cars ends up directly across from the loading track (ie at lower left), you now start blocking the tail track you need to pull or spot cars at the loading track. When you arrive with a new trainload of empties, you will need to first remove the loaded cars from the lower left and find somewhere else to stash them before you can start spotting inbound empties at the empties holding track and at the loading track. Even if you start by moving the loads from the lower left to the upper left, it still is an extra move.
If loaded cars are supposed to end up on the upper track on the left as they are loaded, you now need to "saw" the loaded cars back and forth as they are loaded - first left, then right up the ladder, then left into the upper track. Can be done, but it is messy, and maybe looks a little unrealistic in terms of postulating a car puller (ie ye olde 0-5-0) - you need to line both switches ever time a car is moved.
What you gain in extra loading track length, you quite possibly lose again in a shorter holding track for empties. You would have to play around with tracks to test if you gain more than you lose or lose more than you gain or break even in this respect.
In contrast, if you load on the upper right - you leave the upper double slip lined straight across to pull loaded cars across to upper left by hand (either one at the time or whole cut of cars), simulating a car puller. Only time you need to line switches is when an engine either is moving more empties from the empties holding track to the loading track, or when an engine is arriving with more empties and will pull the loads before leaving.
But the best arrangement, if it had at all been possible to tack on a longer loading track to the right of the silos, is the one Dave pointed out - two crossovers facing each other from the main. There it takes one trailing move to spot empties, and loads can be pulled in one simple move, too - either right away, with the engine returning to the yard with the loads, or later, when the train returns from switching the industries further up the branch line to the left. And it is entirely believable with a car puller. Train crew leaves crossovers on both main and siding lined for straight path when departing. Car puller is simulated by moving the cut of cars by hand. You could possibly even make a little motorized car puller on a timer circuit as a pretty cool effect.
Anyways - your layout, your decission :-)
There's a cement plant here in central Virginia that uses three or so spur tracks for what seems to be both inbound and outbound. Inbound traffic seems interesting and assorted, I do think you might want to consider this. They get coal hoppers for fuel, and I hear that the coal ash is then mixed with some of the cement batches as an additive. I've seen covered hoppers of gypsum companies, and a shipment of calcium carbonate, at least that's what the cars said. Not sure what they do with the calcium carbonate. I've driven by there like a dozen times, and always check out the cars on the tracks. It's always interesting.
While they're located basically adjacent to a limestone quarry, I also understand that some plants are located next to clay pits instead (clay being an important ingredient for cement, in addition to limestone) and some of those plants use rail to ship limestone instead.
Ok i'll admit it you lost me way back at the start but it seems to me your missing a good opportunity to use a loads in empties out arrangement for this area by putting 2 sets of buildings back to back and accessing them from either end
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
To me it looks me like the loader is at the wrong end of the plant. rock is crushed in the crusher which is the start. It ends in the bulk storage building. That is where I think the loading should be. One thing I would want would be a building to fill bags of cement, which would be shipped out in box cars. This building would also recieve paper to make the bags.
Ram,
The crusher in this diagram is the unit that crushes the clinker after it comes out of the rotary kiln. The cement clinker is crushed into powder and then sent up the conveyor to be stored in the silos for loading out to rail cars.
I believe very large bins filled with bearings several inches across would assist in the crushing into powder. I think they rotate along thier length axis and periodically empty out, but not sure.
Coal fired fly ash either gets dumped (No epa around) or sold to ready mix plants to mix into cement to make concrete along with other stuff.
Decide which way the loaded cars are going to go and then route a train to grab them loads and out of there without so much scooting about. I will presume that the branchline upgrade past the loaded cars isnt where the loads are going.
Alot of cement places simply stuck the railcar directly into the silos themselves and unloaded straight down into the basement where the stuff is then silo'ed above.
If you are making cement and need to ship out You are going to have dozens and dozens going out each week to customers all over the place.
Now that things are not exactly set in stone or cured yet, take some time to think things through.
Hi Don
Is there any possibility of adding real estate by filling in the ninety degree corner of the aisle? A couple of inches there might allow the curved loading track in Stein's first attempt.
As for loads in, your initial post seems to indicate that there is not really any open space on the other side of the branch from the silos, so I won't go there. But would it be completely verboten to add a delivery track off of what looks like the mainline? Maybe it could nestle against the backdrop at the very top of the diagram.
And Dave -- that's brilliant. I'm going to have to remember that track arrangement. But I still might go with Stein's because it would be easier on the caboose, picking it off of the empties in their loading track and tacking it on to the loads waiting on the branch, instead of backing the full loaded train onto the caboose waiting on the branch between the crossovers.
Mike W.
Don ZHere is a rough drawing of the area that I'm trying to work in.... By trying to shoehorn this industry onto my layout, I'm adding traffic to increase the customer base. As it was, I only had 5 customers for my railroad to service. I have quite a few cement hoppers and I'm trying to incorporate them into the operation plan. Thanks, Don Z.
Mike,
Thanks for the input. After many hours of studying and arranging paper templates, I have come up with this setting as shown in the diagram. The cement plant has been moved back and will fit in the area shown after I shorten the conveyor leading up to the silos. I have created a passing siding for the branchline so trains will have an easier time working the different industries in the area. I know a train should be able to work a plant without fouling the main, but then again this is a branchline and the only traffic is going to and from the customers located along the branchline.
A train of empty cement hoppers arriving from the yard can ease into the siding, cut off the power and then run back down the main to the cement plant lead. The power then pulls the loads from the loading track and then stages them in the storage track. Once the loading track is clear, the empties are pulled back and then pushed into the loading track. The power then couples onto the loads and departs back to the yard.
The track along the bottom of the drawing is now available for a new industry. I plan on having the loading track inside the building. The stub that sticks out the right end of the building will hold an EMD Critter that will shuffle the cars in and out of the building. Once all of the cars are loaded, they will be pushed to the opposite end of the track to be picked up by a passing train.
So, here's the latest version of the drawing....
Once again, thanks to everyone for their input.
Your conductors are going to hate you if it's going to require extra moves to switch out the plant.
There's no reason that the switch crew can't go in with the empties, swing the loads to the main, and shove the empties back in. In reality, that's probably how a crew would do it anyways. There's no reason to make the extra moves to the storage track back and forth.
The switchback for the new customer is unnecessary as well.
Either switch them off the siding, or get rid of that three way switch.
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After thinking about this for a while, I was just getting back on to post my comments and I see you've made a decision. I always watch these discussions with some interest. Various ideas get tossed around, changes made, repeat. It seems almost invariably that I like the "original" better than the "final".
I was going to suggest putting a plywood prairie in the area, setting up one of the arrangements with sectional track and actually run testing it. Nothing like really running a set up to discover its shortfalls. After a while of taking notes switch the track to one of the other arrangements and try it. Then choose.