Except for between tracks 3 & 5 and tracks 5 & 6, my yard track are on 2 inch centers. Looking back, I should have gone a little farther, like 2 1/2. Operationally, the 2 inch spacing is fine. It's just a little tight to get my fingers in there when swapping out cars.
As always, I made some trade-offs, using a compound ladder let me get three more tracks into my space, but cost about a car length and a half off the compounded tracks, about 9 cars total, but one of the added track made up for that. Steepening the ladder added another track, and also allowed more space for the compounded tracks. I found no real trade off in steepening the angle of the ladder.
For those that need visual aids...
Steepening the ladder allowed me add 12 cars lengths to the yard:
Steeping the ladder plus compounding the tracks added 24 cars total to the yard:
I think it's a pretty fair trade off, gain 24 added cars for the loss of 9.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
jake9Yup - so we have the usual conundrum of more vs. longer. Compromise and lay track!
Yup - so we have the usual conundrum of more vs. longer. Compromise and lay track!
Sounds like a good plan
Btw - no warranties about me having drawn an even close to optimal yard ladder - I was just trying to illustrate that a yard ladder set at a steeper angle could give longer tracks. Neither Armstrong or Sperandeo says anything about having to increase distance between yard tracks to make this work, and it doesn't appear from the pictures that Nick's yard tracks are abnormally far apart.
Speaking of other forms of yard ladders - Sperandeo shows four different kinds of yard ladders for a 6 track yard coming off a main on page 31 of "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight yards":
a) Straight ladder, #6 turnouts ( b) Straight ladder, #6 turnouts on a #5 angle - 15" of extra track length relative to (a) c) Compound ladder, #6 turnouts - 25" of extra track length relative to (a) d) Pinwheel ladder - even longer - at the cost of taking up some real estate around the curve
In your case, coming off a curve into the yard, the pinwheel might make a lot of sense:
Closeup of pinwheel ladder:
As always - tradeoffs in looks, lengths etc.
Smile, Stein
I don't want to deter your plans, but I doubt that by going to all of the work of changing the angle of the ladder will provide the room for even one additional 40' boxcar in the yard track.....the plan Stein drew with the illustration actually increased the centerline distance between yard tracks, so you'll either have to give up one of your yard tracks to make the new angled ladder fit, or change the benchwork. Just my opinion....
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
Don - I certainly did not mean to in any way impugn the Atlas RTS (free or not) as I am actively using it. Thanks so much for the angle information. Is there a site that has all those angles listed? And from what you write, I surmise that a #6 turnout is 28" radius. What then is a #5 - 24"?
From your directions(and as you saw, I was able to finally get color in my tracks - turns out I had to unclick View>roadbed only), I am making copies of a special turnout to put in my selection bar?. So I should make a R & a L for the yard? And the curve will only apply to the diverging track?
I will try that. Thanks again!
jake9I see what is happening now and realize that the Atlas RTS program is just too rigid to allow those subtleties(sp?).
The Atlas RTS is surprisingly flexible and easy to use for a free program. And you can create just about any yard you want. After all I did. Here's how I create a #6 ladder with #5 angles.
1. place down a #6
2. menu: Special->shape flex track...
3. Select curve. A #5 angle is 11.3 degrees. A #6 angle is 9.5. The difference is 1.8 degrees (give or take) Create a R28 with 1.8 degrees. (You may want to create several copies)
4. Zoom in and add it to the turnout. It may be turned in the wrong direction. In this case you'll need to hit the "flip last piece" button.
5. You know have the start of a #6 yard with #5 angles. You'll need to add the 1.8 R28 to the end of each yard turnout track to compensate for the additional curve. (That's why I said to create several copies)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Nick and Stein - sorry to keep this thread going but I (and hopefully others) are learning.
I see what is happening now and realize that the Atlas RTS program is just too rigid to allow those subtleties(sp?). I think the take-home is the use of flex track and paper radii to make it come out the way it is visualized.
Thanks to all for taking the time to contribute. In a few?...... years, I MAY not be a newbie!
Maybe this will help:
The red line represents the rough center of curvature for the body tracks to turn back parallel to the tracks along the back wall. Hopefully, you can see how the angled ladder and curved body tracks work.
jake9Houdini54 - I had EXACTLY the same impression using Atlas RTS8.0 and thus my layout from yesterday does not have curves. I tried a 3" section of 22radius curved up(away) at the first turnout but also thought it looked shorter. Maybe we need to lay the track? Stein - thanks for the schematic but i am still unclear as it is hard to see the curves, which way are they curving? up in the picture? Think I need a bigger picture to conceptualize?
Houdini54 - I had EXACTLY the same impression using Atlas RTS8.0 and thus my layout from yesterday does not have curves. I tried a 3" section of 22radius curved up(away) at the first turnout but also thought it looked shorter. Maybe we need to lay the track?
Stein - thanks for the schematic but i am still unclear as it is hard to see the curves, which way are they curving? up in the picture? Think I need a bigger picture to conceptualize?
Here:
Track between first turnout and second turnout is a 1.5" long piece of 40" radius. To get gentler curves (without having to cut down the legs on the turnouts or fiddle too much), I increased center-to-center distance between parallell tracks from 2" (corresponding to 2" *87.1 = 14.5 feet) to 2.5" (corresponding to 18 feet).
I used Peco turnouts - where the diverging route curves gently away from the turnout instead of going straight off - that also helps in keeping curves fairly gentle.
It is not a given that you can pull something like this off using unmodified sectional track. The reason quite a few people are using flextrack is the added flexibility in easily changing lengths and angles.
jake9I tried to turn the yard ladder a little as suggested but don't see that it helped at all??
Example of using Peco Medium turnouts and 40" radius curves:
GraniteRailroader Instead of hooking the diverging leg of the first switch to the second switch, put in a small piece of curved track that continues with the diverging route. By making the angle of the yard ladder a little steeper, you can fit more tracks in a smaller space.
Instead of hooking the diverging leg of the first switch to the second switch, put in a small piece of curved track that continues with the diverging route. By making the angle of the yard ladder a little steeper, you can fit more tracks in a smaller space.
I am grasping this concept of adding the curved piece. However when I do this on the computer (Atlas RTS) it does not seem to make any difference. In fact, it almost seems as if the lines are shorter in my ladder tracks...not longer. I used 1/3 section of both 18 radius, and 22.
dehusmanThe major concern here is that outbound you might get a 9 ft train, inbound you are limited to about 5 ft. Any longer than 5 feet and you trap the engines in the tail track.
This is only a problem if you want to take your mainline train out for service while it's being broken down/built up. There are several easy ways to fix this. Curving the a/d track coming off the south main (as you mention) is one of them. You can also do a run around to the purple track using a lh switch and diamond crossings. (as someone else suggested.)
It takes about 4 cuts to completely build a train. Another 4 to break it down. That's really not that bad. I tried to emphasize yard size over convience so it can accomodate enough cars for 2->3 smaller trains. If you want simplicity (what fun is that? ;-) ) you can put the ladder lead on the other side of the a/d switch giving you another foot. I personally don't like curved drill tracks.
I'm afraid I lost you on the caboose track. I went over it a couple times with a northbound and southbound train both building and breaking down. I see no problem getting a caboose on. The reason I choose a runaround is because train crews often stuck with the same caboose. It's rare for a caboose to be randomly assigned. (I guess they kept their personal artifacts in the caboose, so it made it easier to keep one caboose to each crew.) Having a run around makes it easier to get to that specific caboose.
dehusmanYou would be better served by putting a right hand switch in the main line at the very bottom of the drawing and bring the A/D track out of the straight side of it.
That is a very reasonable possibility and I have thought of this. However curves in the a/d track is something I try to avoid because of coupling issues. It's a tradeoff. (Givens and druthers)
To be honest given the OP's room size, I doubt he will be running anything bigger than 8'->9'
Well here is the last version after all the input. I have one main and one AD track and plenty of yard lead, I think. I tried to turn the yard ladder a little as suggested but don't see that it helped at all?? All track is not connected on purpose. The bottom is open for further construction some day.
Comments, constructive or not are appreciated1!
Last? question - from your schematic, you don't contin ue to put curves in each leg, only the first and the rest of the yrad tracks are parallel?
NOW..... I get it!! Thanks so much.... and I see how it increases the yard space.
While extreme, the difference between the red and the black shows the difference.
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
Nick - I hate to continue to seem obtuse ... but I am. I do not see what you are picturing so I am wondering if a schematic would help. I tried but I am conceptually challenged I guess. I fail to see how this angling will increase the number of cars in a ladder? Can you help.
Houdini54I am a guy who just follows the blueprints and builds what it says. Now I want to design my own layout. I am starting on the yard first, so I just bought the book "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" last night (good book by the way) but I don't understand the whole "use no. 6 turnouts on the angle of a no. 5" thing. Can you please help explain that more?
I am a guy who just follows the blueprints and builds what it says. Now I want to design my own layout. I am starting on the yard first, so I just bought the book "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" last night (good book by the way) but I don't understand the whole "use no. 6 turnouts on the angle of a no. 5" thing. Can you please help explain that more?
Take look as this:
I gained track capacity, by steepening the angle of the ladder. The metal rule represents the line if I had used a straight ladder. I continued the curve coming off the first turnout at the upper right to change the angle.
You can just see the curve of the body tracks at the Reading caboose just about the rule and the MP15 below it. Again, I also used a compound ladder to squeeze even more tracks in.
dehusmansteinjr Mmm - did you mean move the yard ladder 2 feet to the left ? Yes the ladder. Why not just connect the end of the yard lead back to the main, leaving a switcher pocket at the end - that way you can do it either way - use the A/D track independent of the yard lead, and still have a train arrive directly into a yard track or depart directly from a yard track ? If you wanted to do it that way you could, just moving the ladder over two feet is more prototypical, more flexible and takes zero additional switches.
steinjr Mmm - did you mean move the yard ladder 2 feet to the left ?
Yes the ladder.
Why not just connect the end of the yard lead back to the main, leaving a switcher pocket at the end - that way you can do it either way - use the A/D track independent of the yard lead, and still have a train arrive directly into a yard track or depart directly from a yard track ?
If you wanted to do it that way you could, just moving the ladder over two feet is more prototypical, more flexible and takes zero additional switches.
Okay - those are all fair points. OTOH, moving the yard ladder 2 feet left cuts a total of six feet of the yard's tracks capacity - about 12 cars, or in other terms - losing about 25% of original yard capacity.
But you are right about it looking more prototypical and being more flexible your way. If the lost capacity isn't important, then your way is better.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Yes except move the yard lead 2 feet to the left so that a train can go through the crossover in front of the engine sitting in the siding and head into the yard. Makes the whole yard waaaaaaaay more flexible. Yes, you will have to stop switching for the brief 38 seconds it takes for a train to arrive or depart the yard, but the ability to depart or arrive into a yard track or work off the main into a yard track more than makes up for it.
Yes except move the yard lead 2 feet to the left so that a train can go through the crossover in front of the engine sitting in the siding and head into the yard. Makes the whole yard waaaaaaaay more flexible. Yes, you will have to stop switching for the brief 38 seconds it takes for a train to arrive or depart the yard, but the ability to depart or arrive into a yard track or work off the main into a yard track more than makes up for it.
Mmm - did you mean move the yard ladder 2 feet to the left ? Unless I have my terminology all mixed up, the yard lead is the track the switcher is on with a cut of cars ?
steinjr
dehusman The major concern here is that outbound you might get a 9 ft train, inbound you are limited to about 5 ft. Any longer than 5 feet and you trap the engines in the tail track. The drill track will have to curve around parllel to the main to be of any use whatsoever, as it is its only 2 ft long, so to switch your 5 ft train you will need 3 or more cuts. To build the 9 foot train you would have to make about 5 or 6 trips from the yard to the A/D track. If you do set a 9 ft train (9 ft of cars) it will never leave because it will frog in the power. There is no way the power can get on the outbound train and be in position to depart the yard. Rather than waste the space on the run around for a caboose track, I would just shove them down the purple track and forget the runaround. You would be better served by putting a right hand switch in the main line at the very bottom of the drawing and bring the A/D track out of the straight side of it. that will lengthen the A/D track by about 2 feet and let you build a longer train. I would also move the crossover from the main to the AD track to the other side of the switch between the drill and the switching lead. Even if it meant shortening all the tracks by a foot or so. That would allow you to build a full length train in the A/D track, be able to yard a train up to about 20 ft long (in three cuts) and you can use the main for any double overs or swings you want
The major concern here is that outbound you might get a 9 ft train, inbound you are limited to about 5 ft. Any longer than 5 feet and you trap the engines in the tail track.
The drill track will have to curve around parllel to the main to be of any use whatsoever, as it is its only 2 ft long, so to switch your 5 ft train you will need 3 or more cuts. To build the 9 foot train you would have to make about 5 or 6 trips from the yard to the A/D track.
If you do set a 9 ft train (9 ft of cars) it will never leave because it will frog in the power. There is no way the power can get on the outbound train and be in position to depart the yard. Rather than waste the space on the run around for a caboose track, I would just shove them down the purple track and forget the runaround.
You would be better served by putting a right hand switch in the main line at the very bottom of the drawing and bring the A/D track out of the straight side of it. that will lengthen the A/D track by about 2 feet and let you build a longer train. I would also move the crossover from the main to the AD track to the other side of the switch between the drill and the switching lead. Even if it meant shortening all the tracks by a foot or so. That would allow you to build a full length train in the A/D track, be able to yard a train up to about 20 ft long (in three cuts) and you can use the main for any double overs or swings you want
Mmm - you mean something like this:
Or perhaps this:
Stein
DigitalGriffin
You would be better served by putting a right hand switch in the main line at the very bottom of the drawing and bring the A/D track out of the straight side of it. that will lengthen the A/D track by about 2 feet and let you build a longer train. I would also move the crossover from the main to the AD track to the other side of the switch between the drill and the switching lead. Even if it meant shortening all the tracks by a foot or so. That would allow you to build a full length train in the A/D track, be able to yard a train up to about 20 ft long (in three cuts) and you can use the main for any double overs or swings you want.
Houdini54 I just bought the book "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" last night (good book by the way) but I don't understand the whole "use no. 6 turnouts on the angle of a no. 5" thing. Can you please help explain that more?
I just bought the book "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" last night (good book by the way) but I don't understand the whole "use no. 6 turnouts on the angle of a no. 5" thing. Can you please help explain that more?
The graphic on page 31 of of the book shows it pretty well. By inserting a small curve just after the first turnout in the yard, the ladder is on a slightly steeper angle than it would be if you used the "natural" angle of the first turnout. Then each yard track will also have a slight curve following the turnout into the body tracks. This saves on the overall length of the ladder.
This sharper angle doesn't have to be exactly on the angle of the next smaller numbered switch, by the way. That is one easy way to figure it that usually works out well, but that way of phrasing it (which is common) does make it a little confusing to figure out what's going on. Just look carefully at the top two diagrams of ladders on that page and you'll figure it out.
ByronModel RR Blog
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
SperandeoHi Jake, I'm surprised that no one has suggested laying out your yard ladders with the no. 6 turnouts on the angle of a no. 5 or even a no. 4. This is a space-saving measure that prototype railroads often use, and it lets you combine the advantages of longer turnouts with the compactness of the larger angle. All it takes to accomplish this is a little bit of curvature from the diverging leg of the turnout leading into the yard track. I show this on page 31 of my book, "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards," and also in the example yard on pages 34-37. The photo on page 28 shows a prototype example of a yard ladder laid out this way. Good luck with your layout, Andy
I had a video of a very small yard on a 4 foot shelf, once I find it I will put a link to it. I think it was one arrival/departure track with a drill serving 2 body or classification tracks.
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/1474/roundhouse440versiontwofb5.flv
I think that little adventure was a desperate attempt at having SOMETHING running. But thinking back on it I realized that I enjoyed the experience and it will be ok to put down a big yard someday.
Looking over some of the pictures here on this thread makes for some outstanding yards.
Large or small, you can do it.
Just remember, a train isnt a train until a track warrant is issued, caboose tacked on and markers active. LOL.
Wolfgang - thanks for the input. Amazing how similar that looks to the plan above of Johnnny Reb's! Not sure where I see the curve in the yard ladder?
Think I will now have to take all the great input and finally stop procrastinating and LAY TRACK!!!