Ive now got to the stage where i need to make a large rock face. Ive many WS rock molds but im afraid if i use them, it'l end up looking like 'crazy paving'.
I see alot of great looking rock faces. I tried to follow the Joe Fugates method but it ended up looking like what it was, a load of scratched up plaster!
Im not to bad with small rocks with the molds as the picture below will hopefully show but im stuck when it comes to making a big rock face myself. If anyone can show me an idiots guide, i would be very gratefull. Ive also got some pictures off the net of how i'd like it to look.
This is what i have now but using molds is easy isnt it!
Below is where i need a big rock face.
If you have any pics you could show me, that would be great, thanks guys.
I gave up on plaster for carved rocks. I still use some molds but for large areas I like foam. I carve some and use artist acrylics for color. For a more weathered look I add ground goop first. I also like this because I can do the work on the bench and then just set mountain in place. I do most of the carving with a serrated steak knife, but the Hoodoos needed a hotwire tool. Don't worry about errors. Most can be fixed with gouging out a little more. Some are fixed by glueing in a small block of foam and starting over. Here are a couple of pics. There are many more in my sig.
One problem with the WS rock molds is they made rock lumps and what you are looking for is a rock face. Take a look at Bragdon's rock molds.
Another el cheapo method is to take heavy aluminum foil and crumple it. I like to crumple it along the length, not in a ball, then sorta straighten it out. Cover it with a thick plaster, like heavy batter, thin enough to pour and spread, but thick enough that when you lift the foil the plaster stays on the foil. Then slap the foil on the rock face. You want the foil to be uneven enough to look like rock outcroppings. When the plaster starts to get firm and warm, then peel off the foil. DO NOT let the plaster harden all the way or you will permanently attach the foil to the mountain. Don't ask how I know. Then you can do any carving or clean up work. If there are bubles in the plaster you can chip around them to make them blend into the rock. Its quick and cheap. since its relatively thin, you can add a layer to build up or cover up the first coat. By brushing the surface with a cheap 2 in paintbrush you can take some of the sheen off and put some sandstone/limestone texture on the rocks. You can also put some dry plaster in a sock or stocking and "dust" the damp plaster face to put a grittier texture on it.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Hi Gary: These rocks were all made with WS molds and Hydra-cal. IMHO, you could use the same rocks you posted, which I think look pretty darn good, and fit them together like a jig saw puzzle to cover the area in the second photo.
ARTHILL wrote:
Thanks for your pics Arthill, great as usual. Your pic above is the effect i need. My layout design makes it difficult to use foam though unfortunately, as under that hill/mountain theres track, ie, its all hollow. Ive thought about stacking some blue insulation foam on top of what i have and then carving, but im not sure if this would be to much of a nightmare or not!?
In your pic in this post, is that simply carved and then painted with maybe a small covering of groud goop?? Its certainly very effective and convincing.
dehusman wrote: One problem with the WS rock molds is they made rock lumps and what you are looking for is a rock face.
One problem with the WS rock molds is they made rock lumps and what you are looking for is a rock face.
Yes, exactly right!
dehusman wrote: Take a look at Bragdon's rock molds.
I will, thanks!
dehusman wrote: Another el cheapo method is to take heavy aluminum foil and crumple it. I like to crumple it along the length, not in a ball, then sorta straighten it out. Cover it with a thick plaster, like heavy batter, thin enough to pour and spread, but thick enough that when you lift the foil the plaster stays on the foil. Then slap the foil on the rock face. You want the foil to be uneven enough to look like rock outcroppings. When the plaster starts to get firm and warm, then peel off the foil. DO NOT let the plaster harden all the way or you will permanently attach the foil to the mountain. Don't ask how I know. Then you can do any carving or clean up work. If there are bubles in the plaster you can chip around them to make them blend into the rock. Its quick and cheap. since its relatively thin, you can add a layer to build up or cover up the first coat. By brushing the surface with a cheap 2 in paintbrush you can take some of the sheen off and put some sandstone/limestone texture on the rocks. You can also put some dry plaster in a sock or stocking and "dust" the damp plaster face to put a grittier texture on it.Dave H.
This maybe the easiest option for me at the moment, however, if i make a hash of it, it will be a big clean up operation but i could start over on top if need be. Thanks for the idea Dave.
Grampys Trains wrote: Hi Gary: These rocks were all made with WS molds and Hydra-cal. IMHO, you could use the same rocks you posted, which I think look pretty darn good, and fit them together like a jig saw puzzle to cover the area in the second photo.
That also looks realy good! Are these WS molds also?? One problem i noted from a personal view point when using my casting plaster to 'blend' various plaster rocks in this fashion was that the plaster used to 'glue' one rock to another, didnt take color washes the same as the rock itself and showed up. However, these pictures are all definately helping me understand that it realy isnt that hard, i appreciate it.
Aw, just do it. What have you got to lose? Hydrocal is cheap.
Seriously, you've already demonstrated that you can paint rocks and do realistic scenery. That's the hard part. The rest is merely assembly. The trick is to disguise things so that the viewer doesn't realize you've used the same casting more than once, which you can do by flipping them upside down or even sideways, and by breaking them down into smaller pieces so large recognizeable features aren't repeated. Don't be afraid to trim the castings so that they fit snugly together. I use a Dremel to fit rock wall castings together, or I carve them with a hobby knife to fine-tune the edges.
Take a look at Bragdon Enterprise's rock molds at http://www.bragdonent.com/. These are first-class molds, and they are considerably larger than the WS ones. A number of the Bragdon molds would fill your whole area with a single casting.
By the way, you can shape a hydrocal casting. For this one, I waited about 10-12 minutes after I poured the hydrocal, and then bent the mold with the hydrocal in it around a form. It set up hard in this shape.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Gary, I have had great luck with the foam board. I found some good board cheap by buying damaged foam board at Home Depot, if you have them on your side of the pond.
Foam is easy to work with, hack out a out line. (I use a bread knife) Then sand with a sanding block, I use 36 grit paper and then pick at it with a small knife and finger nails. When you are happy with it, paint. You can either use latex caulk or hot glue to bond the sheet together, I use both. Hot glue sets up in 5 minutes or less so I can crave, caulk is to be safe. I can lift off all of my foam work so I need it to be strong. From what I have seen you need no tips on painting.
On the lines between the sheets of foam, for my cliffs I want them. But, if you don't want the lines I use latex chalk after they are shaped.
First hills I did in foam I used drywall compound over the foam. This time around I painted straight over the foam and have found the dry compound is a wasted step.
I have never worked with plaster, but if you know how to cut openings for tunnels then just do the same for the rock out crop. Use plaster or caulk to fill any seams that may show.
There are some great videos on You Tube about cutting and painting foam mountains.
Sorry guys for the same pictures again but they are all I have for now.
If I can do it I am sure you can.
Hope I was of some help.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Good advice Ken. The biggest problem with foam is being too careful. I had some cub scouts over, 9 years old, they each had 30 minutes to do a small diorama. They wildest ones had the best scenery. The careful ones needed some encouragement to dig bigger holes. Theyt all got good scenery. Better than my first attempt.
The mess cleans up with a shop vac very nicely. MUCH easier than Plaster.
I used hand-sized molds for making cliffs. I have four of them that I rotate through at different places, and turned up-side-down and sideways at different times. (Sorry, no pictures.) Anyway, whatever molds you use, start from the top and work your way across in a row, then step down to the next row, over lapping the mold above it slightly. This makes the face look like steps. If you start at the bottom, then the second row starts out in space as an overhang if you overlap it. If you don't overlap the castings slightly, you have space to fill and try to match up. One overhang is OK, but you don't want the whole cliff face to be a bunch of over hanging slabs. I cast a face wet. That is, pour the mold, wait for it to set up so it doesn't spill out, then apply and hold it to the form until it hardens. To speed setting of the plaster, I mix table salt in the water used to mix the plaster with.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Art, you gave me the best advise I received so far on carving foam. What it pretty much boiled down to was hack and whack and don't worry because it is easy to fix if you don't like it.
I stared at the pink Mouton for all most a year before I had at it? I was afraid I would mess it up? Guess what, one night I was sick at staring at pink and went on the attack. Best thing I have done so far was not to worry about how it looked.
I went from this.
To what I posted in about 20 hours. Last up dated PIC does not show the latest work. I now feel like a real Moder Rail Roader and even no where near the level you or other people here on the site are, still would not be ashamed to have you over either.
Hi Gary
You can always cheat, although they are pricey. I have the Santa Fe, I didn't realize that they come pre-colored/ weathered, it looks really great.
http://www.cripplebush.net/pages/santafecanyon1detail1.htm
But viewing the smaller rocks that you have already done, I think they look great. Take the plunge and go for it. Make a bunch out of the WS molds, place them on the layout, when your satisfied, glue them into place, cover the seams between the rocks with some Joe Fugate plaster or WS plaster.
GS
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
"A little study of geology also helps" Art I have done that to a point, sure not ready to take a test but a long time ago I posted this is what I am after.
It is the theme not the proto type. When done the town of Alton will be on top of the mountain.
Sorry if this has turned into a high jacking. Gary just have at it and let us know what you are going to do.
Art, again thanks for you gaudiness.
Gary,
I'm a member of the wet plaster casting camp for rock facings. All of the rock face in this photo was applied while the plaster was wet using latex molds.
While many people like using layers of foam, the main thing I don't like about using foam is that the layers of foam telegraph through the finished product....making it look like stacked foam. I don't know if that is a result of using a thick adhesive to glue the layers of foam together or just the nature of the beast.
Something I learned almost too late...when creating the areas that will hold your plaster casting, be sure to keep them far enough away from your roadbed to allow for the thickness of the plaster. I had to reshape some of my cardboard lattice before applying the plaster because the rocks would have trespassed onto the right of way.
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
cudaken wrote: Art, again thanks for you gaudiness. Cuda Ken
Ken,
Was there a hidden meaning in your statement? Or perhaps you were thanking Art for his GUIDANCE?
I'm in the midst of putting a large rock-face on a section of my layout that is about 6' long by 2-3" high, representing high Sierra granite. Because of the large space involved, I'm using several techniques--combining Cripplebush rubber rocks with WS and Bragdon castings. However, I'm not using hydrocal--which sets up FAR too quickly to work with in dry California heat, I'm instead using Sculpatmold, mixed 50/50, which sets up much slower and still results in a nice 'rocky' finish that works well in the molds. It's right between hydrocal and casting plaster in weight, and is workable for about two hours after it 'sets' on the rock-face.
This is one portion using both the Cripplebush rubber rocks and Sculptamold from rock castings. It's about 1/3 of the total area I'm working.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Hi Gary: I'm not sure what part of the country you're modeling, but here in Pa. here's a rather common rock cut. I don't know if this is what your're looking for, just another method. As to the problem with the terrain surrounding your plaster rocks, I've found that using Structolite/Gypsolite glue the rock castings, takes colors and alcohol/ink washes the same as hydrocal. These are broken ceiling tiles.
Here is a long description of how I built a hand carved rock canyon on my last layout. A lot of work, but I liked the results. Click on the images to enlarge.
I used window screen and a hot glue gun to make the basic shapes of the canyon and the two mountains on either side. I decided that I wanted the canyon to be really deep so I made the mountains about 5.5 feet tall from the floor. The screen was glued to wood supports where necessary. It actually is quite stiff, so I didn't need a huge amount of support.
I then applied the base coat of plaster. This is a very messy job. Use old clothes and old shoes and make sure you have a space that you can leave really messy for quite some time. Don't put old plaster down the drain. Use paper towels to clean up wet stuff and let the plaster set on bowls etc and then crack it off to clean them. I used hydrocal plaster. It is a very hard plaster that is quite strong (when taking down the layout, I had trouble cutting it with a sawzall). I don't recommend other kinds of plaster for this type of scenery because you need to wail on the whole thing when carving the rocks and most kinds of plaster can't take the abuse. The base coat consisted of paper towels dipped in plaster. I applied two coats. This made a shell that was rock hard.
The next step was to apply thick sections of plaster and carve them into rocks. I mixed up two or three batches of plaster (about two cups dry plaster per batch) and let them set in the bowls until they were beginning to set and could hold a shape. The shell is then sprayed with water and the plaster is applied in 2" thick ropes to the hard shell. You then have about 10 minutes to carve before it turns to stone. I used a chisel to break the plaster into jagged edges and a utility knife to make the crosscuts and fine lines. You have to work fast and decisively. If something didn't work, I would put more plaster over the top or break it out with a hammer. I made the fracture lines in my rocks follow the natural lines that you find in real rocks (synclines and anticlines). They all line up like real rocks do, along a single plain. I was able to do about a square foot per evening; it took 2 years to do all the rocks on the layout.
After the rocks were carved, I colored them with watercolor paints. I used burnt sienna, burnt umber, ochre, Paynes Grey and India ink washes in spray bottles. The secret is to work slowly, vary the colors and to gradually build up the color in the plaster. It is like watercolor painting, You can always add more color later, you cannot remove color to make things lighter.
I then took all of the shavings from carving the rocks and used different sized screens to sort them into various sizes. I then sprinkled these into the bottom of the canyon and colored them as I had with the rocks. I used real fine pebbles near the edges of the bigger outcroppings to look like small rocks that had fallen off more recently. I used woodland scenics foam for the foliage and scenic express super trees.
I was inspired by John Allen's work to make this canyon. Check out Linn Westcott's book, "Railroading with John Allen". His scenery was amazing. While Woodland Scenics sells hydrocal it is best purchased in 50lb bags at home supply yards that carry supplies for lathe and plaster wall repair and construction (there is usually only one in town). It is also possible to cast rocks instead of carving them, the effect is different, but just as nice....(and quicker). Don't be afraid to go for it. I thought the canyon was the best part of the old layout and I never regretted taking the time to do it.
No canyon on the new layout and I probably will be using Bragdon's molds for the rock work.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Thanks guys, theres some realy inspiring stuff here.
Ive looked at Bragdons molds, this maybe the way to go at the moment, yeah, i know maybe the easy way out Funny thing is, ive already got quite a large rubber rock un-used in a drawer from Cripplebush valley . Its more or less black rubber and i cant figure out how you make a dark object lighter with acyrilic paint washes. I tried a small peice of it with some white paint and it looked terrible. The stacked foam is a thought but im wondering how easy or hard it will be to glue strips of foam onto an already undulating hill side!
Thats where the problem lies initialy, i ended up with more like rolling hills than rocky mountains when i done my plastering months ago. I gota get rid of the rolling hills without taking it all down! Is it possible? I hope so
I gota whole load of pictures of the effect's i want. I reckon Il take the plunge soon after getting some more materials.
Gary--
On the Cripplebush rocks--they're a very dark color, and it was all wrong for what I needed--Sierra Granite is a basic gray. What I did was lightly spray-paint them with an acrylic based paint that can be found either at Lowe's or Home Depot here in California--the paint comes in a series of flat colors with gray and earth tones. With the lighter gray base, then I was able to stain and color them as I saw fit. You're right, they're very hard to lighten well in their original color. I've also used Bragdon self-adhesive weathering chalks to highlight them.
twhite wrote: Gary--On the Cripplebush rocks--they're a very dark color, and it was all wrong for what I needed--Sierra Granite is a basic gray. What I did was lightly spray-paint them with an acrylic based paint that can be found either at Lowe's or Home Depot here in California--the paint comes in a series of flat colors with gray and earth tones. With the lighter gray base, then I was able to stain and color them as I saw fit. You're right, they're very hard to lighten well in their original color. I've also used Bragdon self-adhesive weathering chalks to highlight them. Tom
Im glad its not just me then!! Think il try and spray it with some acrylic and see what happens. Its either that or it goes in the bin, its far to dark for what i need as it is.
Anyway, i now have a plan. Ive decided to use some Sculptamold to make a rock face. Ive already got a very good book ("How to build realistic railroad scenery")with some good instructions on how to make a good rocky scenes using cast rocks blended with Sculptamold.
This is the peice il make a start on-
Thats a Noch Grass Master plonked on top to give an idea of scale. This area is completely hollow as theres track that runs under it. Now you can see what i mean about rolling hills instead of a rocky mountainous area. The easy way would have been to simply cover it with grass and trees but it needs something more interesting i think you'l agree! Il update as soon as ive made some progress.
I like the Sculptamold, and it can be used in molds very well as long as you mix it 50/50 with water. It makes for a 'soupy' mixture, and laying the mold face down as you fill it will pull the plaster into the mold crevices very well. I usually let mine 'set' for about 15-20 minutes before I put it on, then hold the mold in place for about another ten minutes while it 'sets up'. When the mold is peeled off, the casting has a nice 'grainy' texture to it, and there's still a couple of hours to do any blending and additional sculpting that you want. I've also found that Sculptamold takes staining very well--almost better than Hydrocal. At least in my climate, which is pretty dry. The weight of the Sculptamold is somewhat between casting plaster and Hydrocal--closer to Hydrocal--medium light.
Good luck. I think you'll enjoy working with the product.
Thanks Tom. I was thinking about using my casting plaster (its very similar to hydracal only cheaper) for rocks, then using the Sculptamold for 'glueing' and blending around the outsides of the plaster rocks, however, i reckon a better idea will be to use the sculptamold for all of it. I think if i try and mix the two material's il get problems with coloring, as one will take color differant to the other.
Anyway, as you have reinforced the point that Sculptamold has a better texture for rock, thats what im gona do! The book makes it look so dam easy but i suspect im making a bigger deal out of than what it realy is.
As I read through this post I noticed (more likely I didn't see) that there was no mention of using ceiling tiles to make a rock face. I remember an article I read and the finished product looked alot like strata formations and the process was fairly easy.
Bust the tiles, glue the pieces together, trim to fit and paint to match (If it was only so easy)
Best thing about this method is that it can be built on a benck and cut to fit.
Don't know if this helps but don't think it will hurt.
I've used Bragdon molds quite a bit. Many pics of making them are in my layout thread.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Right, time for an update. Nearly 2 bags of Sculptamold later ive got to the pictures below.
I kinda happy, kinda not!
Below is a picture of an area thats bugged me for months...........
So, my answer was to take a hammer to it.......
I then hit it with Sculptamold and bandage and got this.........
Im fairly happy with the results here. I reckon once its stained with wash'es, it'l look ok.
(Please tell me if you dissagree and why!)
Now for the crunch. Im not entirly happy with this area, i dont know why but it just dont look right...
Left hand end....
Right hand end....
I reckon its prety hard to tell how this will look until its stained and partialy covered with scenic materials. Maybe it will look OK but im not sure. Ive also come to the conclusion that working with photo's didnt realy help much. I welcome any criticism guys.
You're exactly correct....it's very difficult to get a feel for how the finished product will look when all you have to look at is white plaster. I faced the same problem when I was casting plaster molds onto my layout. I had no idea if what I had done looked good or if it even resembled what I wanted, but once the color was added it became much easier to look at and visualize the finished look.
I'd say you're off to a great start!