I plan to build a 10' X 16' HO double-decked around the walls layout with a peninsula, so lighting is something that has to be considered even before the room is finished. I'm having a sick day (bad cold) so I'm catching up reading MR, searching here, and coming up with a few ideas regarding my as yet unfinished layout room at the back of my garage.
______________-ooOOOO=00-00________________________
Here's my idea (really an adaptation of an already tried idea, but I didn't know that until I searched here):
At a local building supply store, there are now 12v LED puck lights available in sets of 3 with their requisite transformer. These are essentially the same as the already well known 20w halogen puck lights commonly used for under-counter and cabinet interior lighting.
The halogens sell for around $35 per set at this particular retailer, while the LEDs are $50 per set. Both sets are rated at 20w output, but the halogens produce not inconsiderable heat, and have a relatively short life span when compared to LEDs, which for most applications never need replacement. They're essentially a one-time cost with no maintenance needed. Not to mention the fact that LEDs will draw a tiny fraction of the current needed for any other type of light (except candles!), this should result in a lower operation cost over the life of the layout, and they can easily be removed and reused should the layout be dismantled for any reason.
I'm sure one could find these light sets available at a reduced cost at an online seller or in larger cities at a major renovation or building centre.
The only stumbling blocks would be, as stated, the initial higher cost, and perhaps the quality of the light may not be as desirable as other types, but maybe some sort of filter could be placed in the puck over the glass lens to provide a reasonably accurate daylight effect.
Also, on the con side, I don't think LEDs are dimmable, but I could be mistaken. I can't recall if it's possible with special woring or not.
I've read here that others have tried the halogen pucks with success, I have used them for under-counter lighting in my kitchen, and they really work well, but they're hot!
With halogens the ideal spacing seems to be around 3 feet apart, but of course this will vary with the distance from the layout. They're gairly easy to reposition, so experimenting with the spacing should prove reasonably simple.
I intend to mount the pucks fairly close to the backdrop behind a valence and bounce the light off the backdrop to eliminate shadows and diffuse the light somewhat. I shall also have a couple of small flourescent fixtures for working besides the operation puck lights.
Thoughts, anyone?
Oh, I should add for anyone who hasn't seen these puck lights up close, they mount via two small screws through the round case into the wood above. Bouncing the light will require them to be mounted on small wooden angleswhich will be screwed to strapping under the upper deck and above the upper level.
P.S.: this is a great site, and has really inspired me to get back into the design and building of my room and layout-to-be after a couple years (again) of being stalled, postponed, etc. The budget's already spent on home renovations this year, but part of next year's tax money will go to finishing the room at least.
I suppose another consideration would be transformer capacity. The halogen tranny's should have a higher capacity than the ones supplied with the LED pack since LEDs draw far less current, or conversely, one should be able to hook more LED lights to a halogen pack's transformer than the originally included 3 lights. I'll have to look into that.
Also note, the lights come wired to a plastic plug so the system is rather modular in nature. On might be able to hook up mutliple packs together for a really customized set up. Again, the limitation would be transformer capacity.
I think we went down this road in another thread just a few weeks ago. Only then it was about LED rope lights vs halogen pucks. Actually if it were me, I'd go with the rope lights. I've tried the halogen pucks, and ended up with two bad transformers in as many years. I also tried the LED pucks, but the light is very directional, almost like spot lights. The effect was completly unacceptable to me, as certain areas of the layout were brightly lit, but the space in between the lights was dim or dark.
Right now I have a set of puck CFLs that I found at my local hardware store. They are only slightly larger in diameter than the halogen or LED pucks. They have only been in place for about a month so it's way too early to comment on their durability. They also require a transformer, so that may end up being a future point of failure. Here's a URL for refrence:
http://www.environmentallights.com/categories/1301_2368/cfl-undercabinet-pucks
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
I went searching for info on model railroad lighting and came up pretty empty. I eventualy found useful information from doll house dioramas and theater arts. Check those sources from the public library for more ideas.
I ended up with standard flourecent fixtures hidden behind valances, with mini spot lamps to highlight selected scenes. Use the "natural daylight" type of tubes, they are blue tinted and make all the difference in the world.
Halogens are great, but be wary of the heat. The make a lot of it, so ensure you have adequate airflow around the buckets and an AC unit in the room that will handle it.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
After some searching before I posted this thread I had found a thread where someone had posted that they had used the halogens and were happy with them. He posted that taking off the glass covers gave a more broad field of light. The halogens under my kitchen cupboards give a decent spread of light. Further away from the layout surface would enhance that effect, but lighting the lower deck will be the most problematic.
I think I'll probably buy one set and do a test after the room is ready with the backdrop up and paited, and before I start building benchwork to see if the light is acceptable. I have a 7' X 9' L shaped section with track already laid, but no scenery, so I'll temporarily install that to determine the diffusion and experiment with optimal distance.
I used strings of the larger size out-door Christmas lights strung behind the valence to illuminate my layout. A whole string of 25 lights (25 feet worth) was only $1.99 after Christmas !!! For less than $10, I lit my whole layout.
I did find the light was a little weak in a few of the deeper scenes, so I replaced the odd bulb with ones made for micro-waves than are available in 15, 25 and 40 watts .... perfect for balancing the light levels.
Heat is a slight concern, but my train room is air-conditioned and in the winter, I can actually cut back on the heat required from the furnace to keep it comfortable. As a back-up, I installed 8 small 12v fans from a computer power supply in the drywall ceiling than can be turned on to pull warm air out of the room if necessary - they were very effective !
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I have a double deck layout that is lit entirely with CPFLs.
I did numerous experiments with all type of tubes, brite sticks, halogen, x-mas lights, light ropes etc. The goals were bright pleasing light with low initial hardware cost and low operational cost. By far I liked the halogens and the incandescents but they didn't meet most of the criteria. I settled on CPFLs when the prices dropped and they came out with the warm white versions in 40 watt equivalents (cheap at HD).
If you start doing the math on power consumption you will see that to light any space adequately begins to add up in a hurry wattage wise (roughly one amp per 100 watt bulb). The biggest current draw for most layouts will be the lighting power load. CPFLs in the 40 watt output range draw 11 watts!!! This is a huge advantage. The industry is producing incandescent color range CPFL bulbs very cheaply now, and while the color isn't perfect, I have always liked the "incandescent look"..
The layout looks good with these lights and I don't have problems with the dreaded "dark cavernous lower deck look" that plagues a lot of double deck layouts. Using cplfls enabled me to cut the power draw by about 70%. This meant more candle power in spots and less hand wringing about maxing out circuits (I have 40 amps dedicated to the room)
I used Fugate's idea of the porcelain sockets along the inside of the upper deck with CPFLs in them. This allows for very flexible placement of the light source and not nearly as much heat build-up from the lights (due to less watts). The sockets can be bought at OSH for about $2.00 to $4.00 each depending on the type. They are much easier to place and position than tubes when working in tight spots. I have mine wired with the 120V buss in the very back of the deck (separate color code wires) to avoid any problems.
While the look isn't for everyone, I encourage those of you looking for options in lighting (especially multiple deck layouts) to look into CPFLs.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Thanks for the replies!
Trainnut1250, so you're using 40w CFLs for the lower deck? Is this enough light, or are larger CFLs required?
Another question, are the lights the only light source, or is there ambient light from a window, overhead room lights, etc?
As posted above, the lights will be the biggest power draw and I want to minimize the current required for adequate operational lighting.
I'm still thinking LEDs will be fine, at least for the upper deck.
The lower deck has 21 fixtures with a combination of 20 and 40 watt CPFLS on roughly 24" centers.. There is no ambient light except for the bleed over from the upper deck. There will need to be a few more lights in spots but in general, the lighting is very bright. The upper level has around 30 more CPFLs on 24" centers, I have put some 60 watt equivalents in the upper section but most are 40 watt.
On the lower deck I prefer to add lights rather than bump up the wattage because the higher wattage makes hot spots and generates more heat.
Here is an old photo showing the light generated.
This photo was taken using layout light:
Here is a shot of the install in the deck.
Another of the install
Thanks, Guy. That helps a LOT!
It looks like I'll need way more lights than I originally thought, particularly for the lower level. Maybe reflectors made of aluminum would help focus the light downward more. These could be made from pop cans cleaned and mounted above the lights in a curve facing down.
Another thing to experiment with!
I'd like to have this all figured out before I start construction for a change. :)
I started with trying out halogen spots but due to cost, heat, energy and the plain old fact that I wasn't happy with it I went with regular light bulbs. I'm gonna change these for CFPLs later on to reduce the electricity bill. I use one bulb every 50 cm. They are 25 watts each. The CFPls will be 11 watts so it's quite a saving while getting brighter lights. This is the Fugate method that Trainnut refers tp.
I'm planning to ad some form of blue light for night running, probably a rope light.
Magnus
kcole4001
I just bought lighting at HD today. I experimented with clear rope lighting last night... not bright enough. I considered the halogens, but a 5 pack was $30 and I am worried about the heat. Right next to those halogens were similar sized flourescents, but these were 5 for $37 (on sale from $49). Tonight I will experiment with compact flourescents (14 watt consumption, look like 60 W) mounted in plastic socket mounts like would you might see in a storage closet's ceiling. These sockets were $1.29 each. I also bought three 18' rope lights ($10 each at HD), one each in red, blue, and clear. My plan is to use the red to simulate sunrise and sunset; the blue and white will be used to simulate night operations (with the compacts turned off). Dimmers will be used to tune the amount of light and fade from one type of light to the next. I'll get these lights up over the next few days and let everyone know how it went.
bnsf76
I use CFLs in clamp on work lamps:
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
The only real problem with using CFLs are that they have a ballast and can't easily be dimmed.
They don't make much heat, at least not the smaller ones and do save a lot of power. I've never had one burn out yet, had a couple get broken (low clearance in the basement), and they're not all that expensive.
Still, LEDs use a fraction of the power used of even the CFLs and generate even less heat, though are pricy. Dimming is also an issue.
kcole4001 wrote: The only real problem with using CFLs are that they have a ballast and can't easily be dimmed.They don't make much heat, at least not the smaller ones and do save a lot of power. I've never had one burn out yet, had a couple get broken (low clearance in the basement), and they're not all that expensive.Still, LEDs use a fraction of the power used of even the CFLs and generate even less heat, though are pricy. Dimming is also an issue.
Actually, spectrum (color temperature) and color rendering (CRI) are issues for all 3 lighting technologies.
Incadescent has the yellow/red tungsten shift, but a pretty even spectral output. Halogens shift the color temperature a little higher, but at the cost of higher operating temperature (heat output). Neither is even close to daytime sunlight in color temp. But they are easily dimmable for special effects.
The CFLs are now commonly available in 3 color temps. The cheapest are either the red 2700 deg bulbs or the somewhat whiter "soft whites" - about 3300 deg. I also found "daytime" or "sunlight" CFLs at Home Cheapo at a slightly higher price. Bought 2 of the latter and put in my train room overhead fixture. A very different and much brighter white (4700 deg) from the other bulbs, that seems to flatten out colors of objects in the room in comparison. I suspect CRIs are pretty poor on any CFL, because the information is not easily available.
From my experimentation, I think the soft whites are going to be my choice. Whiter than incandescent, but not the over-the-top light of the daylight CFLs. I suspect the latter is just too different from what the eye expects that is causing the disconcerting feeling.
LEDs are even more suspect on spectrum and CRI than flourescents. Spectral diffusion and CRI has been known issues with flourescents, and so engineering effort has been expended to improve CRIs. But because LEDs for mainstream lighting are relatively new, the engineering to improve color rendering and spectral diffusion for general production manufacturing hasn't been done yet. As pointed out, LEDs may well supersede flourescents in the near future due to greater energy efficiency and better dimmability. But it's not here yet except for early adopters.
just my thoughts
Fred W
Guy, I am VERY happy to see the pics you posted. I am planning on a near identical install and was wondering what the outcome would be; your photos have me feeling pretty good! I am also sold on the compact fluorescents because they consume such little power and generate so little heat. I have an 18x9 triple decker, with two of the decks being lit so low power and low heat were MAJOR factors in my decision.
By the way, for those interested, I found some really cool and really cheap fixtures at Ikea in Atlanta (also available online). They are $4 each and come pre-wired with a 15 foot cord and a two prong plug. I plan on cutting the cords and splicing them together, then using one on the end to actually plug in. Every time I go to Ikea I pick up another handful of them! Here is the item I am using:
HEMMA cord set $3.99http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10175810
Jamie
CLICK HERE FOR THE CSX DIXIE LINE BLOG
For all of you who are trying/using CFL lighting on your layout, no one has yet referenced the one HUGE drawback to flourescent lighting which needs to be considered: UV.
All flourescent lighting produces UV radiation, and if you are not aware of the effect of this, next time you are at someone's layout who has been using these lights for a while, you will notice that, unless you utilize filters, the UV radiation will bleach all of the color out of your scenery details. Particularly affected will be ground foam and any other colored organic materials. The same thing happens to plastic lawn furniture, toys, etc. when left out in the sun. The plastic starts fading, and ends up brittle and falling apart. That's why these older layouts tend to look uniform in color, usually greyish.
You can mitigate this effect by using tube-type sleeves for tube lamps, and possibly using sheet-type UV diffusers for CFLs. These are the textured opaque sheets which are installed between the room and the lamps themselves.
So, when calculating the cost of the various options, you need to include this protection in your estimates. If you don't, you WILL end up with your work fading out over time.
Jeff
I have also used 40 and 60 watt equivalent CFL's in those fixtures designed to attach to an electrical box. I am generally pleased with the amout of light and color, the problem I have is that since I have narrow benchwork (narrow room) the tracks along the front edge are backlit or dead on top lit, while the tracks towards the back are side lit. The aisle side of cars on the front 6' of the layout are in the shadows.
I am trying to figure how to place the lights over the aisle so all the tracks are front lit but won't blind the people in the room. The room cuts across the width of the house, so part of the room has a 7.5 ft ceiling and part is 8.5 ft and the 8.5 ft section has an enclosed beam running through it.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I've been doing some research and found that some of the CPFLs can be dimmed, just look on the label. As far as the UV, you can buy special CPFLs that are coated to filter all of the UV light. Also, according to Wikipedia, the acrylic diffusers that we see on most normal fluorescent lights do filter the UV. Last night at HD I saw that they sell replacement diffusers for many of their lights. The best deal I saw was a diffuser approximately 2'x4' for a little over $6. Hope this helps.
P.S. I experimented with the rope lighting for effects and found that the clear rope light drowns out the blue one too much for a night effect.However, while the blue rope light alone is enough to simulate night running, it may be too dark. I want to try putting the clear rope light on a dimmer and see what happens. As far as the red rope light for sunrise and sunset, it needs to be behind some kind of valance at the lower back of the scenery to look right. This will be difficult because of the way I have designed my railroad due to certain inherent limitations. Also the red is hard to see with the CPFLs. BTW the CPFLs work fantastic. I used the 60W equivalents in the daylight variety mounted every two feet.
For the low wattage lights we are discussing, there is probably a sweet spot where you get maximum coverage while still getting adequate intensity. It may take a little experimentation to find the height that works best for a given wattage bulb at a given spacing.
I found some LED puck lights at the local Home Hardware on sale for $2.99 each. They are powered by three AAA batteries, have three LEDs per puck, and are activated by pushing up on the centre. I may be able to wire these in series to a 1.5v transformer.
I'll experiment with these soon to see if they are usable at all. If not, I need them for my linen closet anyway.
I have been to many layouts that use 40W tubes or CFL lamps. I cannot imagine fading from UV unless you have the lights turned on all the time. The overhead 'layout lighting' I have is turned on for maybe 3-4 hours 2-3 evenings/week. My Milwaukee Hiawatha orange cars have not taken on a 'salmon' fade like the prototype that is out in the weather all the time!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I had assumed that the fading was more a danger to scenic materials, but I still don't know if this has been documented in any fashion, or is supposition.
Quality of light is probably a far more important consideration.
And at the rate that most folks rebuild their layouts, fading may not be an issue. Just a thought!
The dimmable CFLs are less than impressive in my book, unless you want to simulate a nasty thunderstorm. I installed 4 of them in some can lights 18' up and when the dimmer was put low they just started flashing (arcing) and the dimmer just hummed away. The package states they work with "most" dimmers, but don't indicate which ones. They were also much more expensive than standard CFLs.
If you are looking for quality light output, drive past home depot n lowes and visit a fish store. They have many different types of tube lights and high intensity outputs. For the night running they have actinic??sp lights that are similar to a black light. They also have reflector tubes to force all the light downwards (tubes with mirror cover on the top half).
Modeling the B&O in the 50-60's
KidatHeart06 wrote:Hi, I have a related question about layout lighting. What color, if any, does everybody paint the underside of the upper level? I'm going to be using Fugates method with 25W Incandescents on dimmers. White? Black? None? Would appreciate some comments and why. Thanks! George
George, If you can paint the underside of the upper level(s), white would be the best choice if you want the most light reflected down to the lower deck. Cliff Powers did this on his HO-scale Magnolia Route. If you go to his website...
http://magnoliaroute.com/magnolia%20route.htm
...and look at the photo galleries, in Gallery #5 (New Orleans) he shows how he did his lighting and also shows how he painted the bottom of the upper level white to reflect light back down. In my case, I really don't have a way to paint the upper level since it will be the underside of roadbed and scenery materials at irregular heights and shapes. If possible I would paint the underside white, since the light would be reflected back in all different angles and would reduce shadows and provide more even (and brighter) lighting.
As for dimmable CFLs, our newest church building (2006) uses dimmable CFLs in overhead fixtures. I operate the lighting during services sometimes and these things have never worked from day one. They flicker, sputter, will all of a sudden come on full power for a minute or so then go back to dim, etc. We don't even use the dimming features any more--they are either off or on. I am sure we paid a lot of $$$ for this but it just does not work well.
I just saw some sort of coated white poster board in my wifes office yesterday. I was going to try using it for glueing things together with in hopes the woodglue wouldn't stick to the coated side. It would work great for reflecting light.
I'm sure it was interesting the first time the cfls started flashing in the church. I guess timing would have been everything.