KidatHeart06 wrote:Great Info wireflight! Group, I have a general question about lighting. I just finished painting the underside of my upper level board with white paint. I'm using incandescents similar to the way Joe Fugate does it to light my lower level. My question is: Should I also paint the frame members that the upper level sits on? They will be visible if someone bends down to look at the details on the lower level. I was wondering of I should paint them white also, or black to try and hide them a little. Thoughts? Thanks! George
By painting them white, they will reflect better than if they were left bare wood. I don't see any reason to paint them black if they are out of sight, since they will still be visible anyway to any person bending over to look at the lower level. My layout is designed to be viewed by a person around average height while standing. At that viewing angle, all of the framing & mechanical stuff will be completely out of sight. An adult bending over (or a child) will be able to look up and see all of the framing, wiring, lights, and other stuff not normally visible. Jamie
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Modeling the B&O in the 50-60's
LED illumination is a Great idea! LED intensity ("brightness") is an analog of current rather than voltage. Yes, you can vary current by varying voltage, but your LEDs won't like that -- lol. Variable-current power supplies are fairly common, so not to worry.
I agree that flexible LED strips ("rope lighting") is the way to go for general illumination: it lets you spread the light out more evenly. If your lights are on a timer, or if you're experimenting with lighting effects, heres a few tips that will make you look like a god (or at least a luminary).
Sorry: I couldn't resist a pun. Anyway, here goes:
If you've got a north-south "mountain range" (or any significant above-grade north-south element), illuminate that element from both sides and drive the LEDs with proportional east-west current (east-side illumination generally leads west-side illumination). That will let you simulate the apparent procession of the sun across the daytime sky.
A similar effect regarding "moonlight" can be had by using lower power and "white" LEDs.
There are a variety of ways to achieve sunlight colors; gold foil reflectors are fairly common in that regard, and you might want to use a translucent red or orange filter between the LED and the reflector. If you're not too picky about your lighting, orange reflectors usually work very well for most light sources.
If you have an east-west gorge, strongly consider lighting it separately using several spots for spectacular daytime transitional effects. If you have a north-south gorge or valley, consider how the higher mountain will shade the lower during certain times of the day, and how it will reflect light onto the lower during other times of the day.
Generally, the starkness of illumination for north-south gorges is directly proportional to how narrow is the gorge: you may have to experiment a bit to get the sort of cutoff you need regarding the transition from full illumination to full darkness.
You'd be amazed at the dynamic variation possible with even the subtlest variations in scene lighting in a dark room; however, if your layout's room is going to be lighted while you're operating the layout, scene lighting will have to overcome the ambient light -- and that's when things can get really counter-intuitive and expensive.
I recommend low-intensity lighting beneath the layout and at control points; red LEDs are best for preserving "night vision" but you may wish to use a different color so as not to offend the eye when entering or leaving the layout room or as a concession to making controls and labels easy to see, identify and read.
The idea is to enable operators and observers to enjoy the layout: you don't want people bumping into things, but you also don't want your "safety lighting" to interfere with their ability to appreciate any layout scene you've created.
If you're pressing for realism, plants (mainly trees) and some buildings and other objects around your layout may require spots for "fill" lighting, so as to prevent any undue harshness of shadow; some buildings may require internal illumination even during "daylight" scenes.
I hope you found this helpful. Good luck with your layout!
Thanks!
No Lowe's or HD here, but there is a HD about 40 min. drive from here. The Can. Tire prices are decent, and I have all CFLs in my house where they will fit.
Dimming is not a real priority for me presently, but it's a good option to keep in mind, as I have until next year before I can get the room finished.
Hi Kcole4001
I don't know if have a lows or home depot, i understand that they are comming out with those florcent lights that you can use a dimmer switch on, i have three regular florecent lights in my train room, you may want to check around in your neighborhood hardware stores, lowes and home depot, also ive taken all the incandecant lights out of my home, and dropped my electric from $150.00 to $60.00 a month, you can add a lot of lighting on your layout. They even have bug lights now, check around.
Good Luck Earl
bnsf76 wrote: Jamie, look around at HD. They should sell those same lights in a 4-pack for about $8. Those are the same bulbs I am using; and yes, they look great.bnsf76
Jamie, look around at HD. They should sell those same lights in a 4-pack for about $8. Those are the same bulbs I am using; and yes, they look great.
bnsf76
The wife thinks I am wierd because I keep buying two packs of these things every time we go in there! By the way, I have been looking around at other home improvement stores, and the price of the daylight CFLs are way higher than at Home Depot and also they are slightly different color. Even though these bulbs are long life, I am going to make sure I have an ample supply of them for future maintenance (although not too many since the price will keep dropping as they become more common). Also, Sam's Club sells 10-packs of GE 60w CFLs but unfortunately they are the soft white variant. Jamie
I use the Hampton bay track strip from Home depot. It has a rotary on off dimmer and has three bulbs per unit (50 watt high intensity-GU10). it sells for around $39, if I recall. Strangley enough I couldn't find it on their web site, but it is in the store in my area. The bulbs are included.
Bill D
model in O. the Western NY and Ontario Railroad
I switched from 40-watt "soft white" CFLs to 60-watt "daylight" CFLs. Big difference! The "daylight" CFLs provide much cleaner/cooler light and the bump in wattage produced the desired additional lighting level. Here is a pic of the first lighted section on the layout and the CFLs that I ended up using:
Jamie
Chris, Thanks for the info...sounds like good advice. By the way, I found a page on the n:vision website that shows the manufacturer's marketing angle on CFL color temperature (n:vision makes most the CFLs that are sold at The Home Depot stores):
http://www.nvisioncfl.com/color-temperature.aspx
I am now using "soft white" for my lighting, but I am going to go out and purchase a couple of 4-packs of the "daylight" variety also for my testing. At around $6 for a 4-pack, it is a cost effective way to evaluate how the two varieties compare against each other. Of course, before I do any comparisons, I will get my backdrops installed and completely painted on that section of the layout. Thanks again! Jamie
Color temperature is largely a personal preference. 5000K is bright sunlight.. soft white I think is a little below that. A lot of really nice layouts are lit by incandescent lights around 3000k and the modelers like the warm tones it gives their models. I have not done scenery yet (soon, carboard strips are going in!) so I cannot comment on how my 6000k lights will look.
Here is a chart of color temps: http://www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm
I think warm white CFLs fall into the 3000K range while the cool whites fall into the 5000k+ range.
The important thing is that you remember that if you have a different color temp on your work bench and bring that same model over to your layout it may look a little different. A color chart viewed in the hobby shop's light will look a little different on the layout. Joe Fugate did a bit in his first scenery DVD that explained how you also need to look at your reference photo prints under layout lighting in order to get the color in the photo right on the layout..his examples have been matching sky and dirt colors at the location you are modeling.
Some people also layer in lights, for instance using cooler lights on most of the layout and highlighting individual scenes with warmer lights. I originally planned to do a similar thing where my 6000k lights would be "ambient" and I would use warmer lights in the direction of the design of my current layout makes me worry about crazed shadows so that experiment may wait for the next one. 6000K is about the color temp of the blue sky while 5000 is clsoer to the color temp of the sun..
One other thing about the cooler temps.. they are closer to the color temp of the flash when taking pics. In the old days you had to match color temp to the film. Its less of an issue now. I can fix white balance on the computer.. and in any case I dont like the way the flash looks. Would rather use a tripod and a longer exposure.
So.. my advice for now would be
1) Dont worry about it too much
2) Be consistent in what lights you use
3) Be informed and form opinions as you observe what works for you and for others. There is a LOT of info on the net about lighting.
HTH
Regards,
Chris
simonjeff1 wrote:For all of you who are trying/using CFL lighting on your layout, no one has yet referenced the one HUGE drawback to flourescent lighting which needs to be considered: UV.
For all of you who are trying/using CFL lighting on your layout, no one has yet referenced the one HUGE drawback to flourescent lighting which needs to be considered: UV.
My understanding is that the UV output of CFLs is comparable to incandescent lights which also cause fading, and is not at the same level of the large tube lights used in the past. Certainly, it is minimal compared to sunlight.
I do know that some fluorescent lighting has a limited spectrum that can cause things to have an off color. My lights make things appear cooler so its important I use the regular layout lighting when I paint.
Still, its worth doing some research. I have never seen UV tubes for CFLs like I have for the big tube flourescents.
Edit.. the only reference I found that was not some poster's random opinion and that gave actual numbers in comparison was this from the EPA
"A recent report from E Source indicates a level of UV radiation from CFLs at a range of 50-140 microwatts/lumen. In comparison, this report also sites that some incandescent products have been found to have UV levels exceeding 100 microwatts/ lumen."
http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3867&p_created=1196783272
simonjeff1 wrote:For all of you who are trying/using CFL lighting on your layout, no one has yet referenced the one HUGE drawback to flourescent lighting which needs to be considered: UV.So, when calculating the cost of the various options, you need to include this protection in your estimates. If you don't, you WILL end up with your work fading out over time.Jeff
Jeff
Hmm, sounds like the ultimate in protypical operation!
My layout even FADES like the real world!
I installed the first section of lighting for my layout this week using cheap sockets purchased from Ikea and 9-watt (40-watt equivalent) CFLs. I have included a few pictures of how it looks so far. I am not going to install any more lighting until I install and paint the backdrops in this area so I can get a better feel as to how even my lighting is. Then I can make any adjustments as needed and finish the rest of the layout. Jamie
kcole4001 wrote:At a local building supply store, there are now 12v LED puck lights available in sets of 3 with their requisite transformer. These are essentially the same as the already well known 20w halogen puck lights commonly used for under-counter and cabinet interior lighting.
At a local building supply store, there are now 12v LED puck lights available in sets of 3 with their requisite transformer. These are essentially the same as the already well known 20w halogen puck lights commonly used for under-counter and cabinet interior lighting.
My understanding is that LED lights have a narrow spectrum of light and would tend to create an "off" look to the colors on your layout.
I am using 20watt equiv (3-4 watts I think) CFLs. These are those new twisty bulbs. Mine are 6000k color temp which is on the blue side of daylight. They stay cool and provide nice light. The Color Index (a measure of how full the spectrum is) is around 82 out of 100 which is "fair". I am using 4 of them in the valence of my 3x5 layout:
I also have the same color temp bulbs over the modeling bench in 100watt form so my painting will look the same on the layout..
I really like my bulbs and they were dirt cheap, I think I paid $7 a pair. However.. if I was doing it over and had a bit more cash I would look into 5000k bulbs with a higher CI. I find these a tad cool and would like to see how a higher CI bulb would compare.
I feel Halogens are just too hot and like incandescents tend to be way to warm to provide the natural light I desire.
I just saw some sort of coated white poster board in my wifes office yesterday. I was going to try using it for glueing things together with in hopes the woodglue wouldn't stick to the coated side. It would work great for reflecting light.
I'm sure it was interesting the first time the cfls started flashing in the church. I guess timing would have been everything.
KidatHeart06 wrote:Hi, I have a related question about layout lighting. What color, if any, does everybody paint the underside of the upper level? I'm going to be using Fugates method with 25W Incandescents on dimmers. White? Black? None? Would appreciate some comments and why. Thanks! George
George, If you can paint the underside of the upper level(s), white would be the best choice if you want the most light reflected down to the lower deck. Cliff Powers did this on his HO-scale Magnolia Route. If you go to his website...
http://magnoliaroute.com/magnolia%20route.htm
...and look at the photo galleries, in Gallery #5 (New Orleans) he shows how he did his lighting and also shows how he painted the bottom of the upper level white to reflect light back down. In my case, I really don't have a way to paint the upper level since it will be the underside of roadbed and scenery materials at irregular heights and shapes. If possible I would paint the underside white, since the light would be reflected back in all different angles and would reduce shadows and provide more even (and brighter) lighting.
As for dimmable CFLs, our newest church building (2006) uses dimmable CFLs in overhead fixtures. I operate the lighting during services sometimes and these things have never worked from day one. They flicker, sputter, will all of a sudden come on full power for a minute or so then go back to dim, etc. We don't even use the dimming features any more--they are either off or on. I am sure we paid a lot of $$$ for this but it just does not work well.
The dimmable CFLs are less than impressive in my book, unless you want to simulate a nasty thunderstorm. I installed 4 of them in some can lights 18' up and when the dimmer was put low they just started flashing (arcing) and the dimmer just hummed away. The package states they work with "most" dimmers, but don't indicate which ones. They were also much more expensive than standard CFLs.
If you are looking for quality light output, drive past home depot n lowes and visit a fish store. They have many different types of tube lights and high intensity outputs. For the night running they have actinic??sp lights that are similar to a black light. They also have reflector tubes to force all the light downwards (tubes with mirror cover on the top half).
I had assumed that the fading was more a danger to scenic materials, but I still don't know if this has been documented in any fashion, or is supposition.
Quality of light is probably a far more important consideration.
And at the rate that most folks rebuild their layouts, fading may not be an issue. Just a thought!
I have been to many layouts that use 40W tubes or CFL lamps. I cannot imagine fading from UV unless you have the lights turned on all the time. The overhead 'layout lighting' I have is turned on for maybe 3-4 hours 2-3 evenings/week. My Milwaukee Hiawatha orange cars have not taken on a 'salmon' fade like the prototype that is out in the weather all the time!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
For the low wattage lights we are discussing, there is probably a sweet spot where you get maximum coverage while still getting adequate intensity. It may take a little experimentation to find the height that works best for a given wattage bulb at a given spacing.
I found some LED puck lights at the local Home Hardware on sale for $2.99 each. They are powered by three AAA batteries, have three LEDs per puck, and are activated by pushing up on the centre. I may be able to wire these in series to a 1.5v transformer.
I'll experiment with these soon to see if they are usable at all. If not, I need them for my linen closet anyway.
I've been doing some research and found that some of the CPFLs can be dimmed, just look on the label. As far as the UV, you can buy special CPFLs that are coated to filter all of the UV light. Also, according to Wikipedia, the acrylic diffusers that we see on most normal fluorescent lights do filter the UV. Last night at HD I saw that they sell replacement diffusers for many of their lights. The best deal I saw was a diffuser approximately 2'x4' for a little over $6. Hope this helps.
P.S. I experimented with the rope lighting for effects and found that the clear rope light drowns out the blue one too much for a night effect.However, while the blue rope light alone is enough to simulate night running, it may be too dark. I want to try putting the clear rope light on a dimmer and see what happens. As far as the red rope light for sunrise and sunset, it needs to be behind some kind of valance at the lower back of the scenery to look right. This will be difficult because of the way I have designed my railroad due to certain inherent limitations. Also the red is hard to see with the CPFLs. BTW the CPFLs work fantastic. I used the 60W equivalents in the daylight variety mounted every two feet.
I have also used 40 and 60 watt equivalent CFL's in those fixtures designed to attach to an electrical box. I am generally pleased with the amout of light and color, the problem I have is that since I have narrow benchwork (narrow room) the tracks along the front edge are backlit or dead on top lit, while the tracks towards the back are side lit. The aisle side of cars on the front 6' of the layout are in the shadows.
I am trying to figure how to place the lights over the aisle so all the tracks are front lit but won't blind the people in the room. The room cuts across the width of the house, so part of the room has a 7.5 ft ceiling and part is 8.5 ft and the 8.5 ft section has an enclosed beam running through it.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
All flourescent lighting produces UV radiation, and if you are not aware of the effect of this, next time you are at someone's layout who has been using these lights for a while, you will notice that, unless you utilize filters, the UV radiation will bleach all of the color out of your scenery details. Particularly affected will be ground foam and any other colored organic materials. The same thing happens to plastic lawn furniture, toys, etc. when left out in the sun. The plastic starts fading, and ends up brittle and falling apart. That's why these older layouts tend to look uniform in color, usually greyish.
You can mitigate this effect by using tube-type sleeves for tube lamps, and possibly using sheet-type UV diffusers for CFLs. These are the textured opaque sheets which are installed between the room and the lamps themselves.
So, when calculating the cost of the various options, you need to include this protection in your estimates. If you don't, you WILL end up with your work fading out over time.
Guy, I am VERY happy to see the pics you posted. I am planning on a near identical install and was wondering what the outcome would be; your photos have me feeling pretty good! I am also sold on the compact fluorescents because they consume such little power and generate so little heat. I have an 18x9 triple decker, with two of the decks being lit so low power and low heat were MAJOR factors in my decision.
By the way, for those interested, I found some really cool and really cheap fixtures at Ikea in Atlanta (also available online). They are $4 each and come pre-wired with a 15 foot cord and a two prong plug. I plan on cutting the cords and splicing them together, then using one on the end to actually plug in. Every time I go to Ikea I pick up another handful of them! Here is the item I am using:
HEMMA cord set $3.99http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10175810